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ATD 2013 - Draft Thread II

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Old
01-30-2013, 11:29 PM
  #426
monster_bertuzzi
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Originally Posted by Modo View Post
We also feel it's a fine time to bring in a goalie, and select Bernie Parent to tend the twine.
****, thought he may free fall to me because of the new HOH rankings.

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01-30-2013, 11:34 PM
  #427
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****, thought he may free fall to me because of the new HOH rankings.
He probably should have...

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01-30-2013, 11:59 PM
  #428
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He probably should have...
When he peaked he was basically Dom Hasek.

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01-31-2013, 12:28 AM
  #429
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When he peaked he was basically Dom Hasek.
Yeah, he was great for 2 years...

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01-31-2013, 02:14 AM
  #430
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Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
To read articles of the day, the combination was viewed as the best defensive forward combination that observers have ever seen.
Nighbor + any good defensive forward would have probably satisfied that criteria. The two were obviously excellent together, but those were hardly Smith's best years.

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I do however object to you're assertion that his offense suffered at right wing. Take for example the 25-26 season vs 26-27. In 25-26 he had a stellar offensive campaign at RW.
Finishing at 69% Vs2 as Hooley did in 25-26 does not count as stellar in my books. Hooley's best offensive years were later, in Montreal, starting in 31-32, as a center.

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But what I object to most is that you are taking his greatest strength, versatility, and trying to find a way to distort things to take that away from him. Maybe he was a natural winger and he only played centre because in Ottawa the second unit centre's career bottomed out that year and the second unit wingers were emerging impact players.
Hooley was, in fact, a natural center in his pre-NHL years. He played for the granites and went to the Olympics, where he did epic things. There's actually some interesting material on that which can be found in google archives, though it wasn't really pertinent to the profile I did on him, so I left it out.

The idea that I am trying to distort anything is silly. I said the same thing about Smith last year when he belonged to gmm. When I owned Smith in 2011, I was simply struck by how disproportionately his career (and team) success seems to be attached to the years that he played center, and I believe the facts back this up. I am trying to undo a distortion that has existed about this player for a long time, and on the side trying to undo a distortion which has existed about the S Line, which was actually a pretty crap unit in terms of talent vs. results.

If other GMs disagree with my interpretation of the facts, that's up to them. There are no absolute right or wrong answers in such an environment.

edit: please note that I am the only person who has actually defended Smith's placement in the top-100, and pointed out that his Hart record is extremely similar to Joliat's. I am one of his biggest fans. My opinion on where Hooley should be best deployed is neither here nor there.


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01-31-2013, 02:22 AM
  #431
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Originally Posted by Velociraptor View Post
An underrated guy in the corners, with a very nice offensive resume. Scored at least 20 goals in every season besides his final year which was cut short due to a horrific career-ending concussion. Goulet will form the "3G Network" with Wayne Gretzky and Bernie Geoffrion. (get it? I'm hilarious)

3 First All-Star Teams
2 Second All-Star Teams
6 Top-10's in Goals

548 goals, 1152 points in 1089 games.
Another really scary top line. Neither Goulet nor Geoffrion is a power forward, but both were good enough along the boards to be a plus, and having both of them on the line should be enough. Goulet is no Kurri, but he was defensively responsible, and gives the line a kind of safety valve. Indeed, he played that role for Gretzky briefly in real life, on the Goulet - Gretzky - Lemieux line of Canada Cup fame. Well-built unit.

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01-31-2013, 02:30 AM
  #432
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
Another really scary top line. Neither Goulet nor Geoffrion is a power forward, but both were good enough along the boards to be a plus, and having both of them on the line should be enough. Goulet is no Kurri, but he was defensively responsible, and gives the line a kind of safety valve. Indeed, he played that role for Gretzky briefly in real life, on the Goulet - Gretzky - Lemieux line of Canada Cup fame. Well-built unit.
I've seen mixed things about Geoffrion's ability without the puck.

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01-31-2013, 02:49 AM
  #433
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So is the consensus that going with Hull-Fedorov-Bure is insanity (though it's not really that different from the X-Fedorov-Bure line IRL)?

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01-31-2013, 03:06 AM
  #434
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I've seen mixed things about Geoffrion's ability without the puck.
Have you? I always thought he was fairly gritty, though I admit to being no expert on Boom Boom's career.

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01-31-2013, 03:07 AM
  #435
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So is the consensus that going with Hull-Fedorov-Bure is insanity (though it's not really that different from the X-Fedorov-Bure line IRL)?
I think you should not have Hull and Bure on the same line, yes, but I also think that Feds is a good fit for whichever of the two he centers. Draft yourself a clone of Fedorov, and you're set.

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01-31-2013, 03:28 AM
  #436
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
Nighbor + any good defensive forward would have probably satisfied that criteria. The two were obviously excellent together, but those were hardly Smith's best years.
Strongly disagree. Smith is the only player I have read writers refer to as building upon and improving the impact Nighbor had.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
Finishing at 69% Vs2 as Hooley did in 25-26 does not count as stellar in my books. Hooley's best offensive years were later, in Montreal, starting in 31-32, as a center.
You know full well that given the era, you must account for the fact that assists were not recorded or possible in the ways they are now. Smith had a high number of assists relative to goals, and as such his performance relative to peers improves. Also factor in that he got hurt that season and was third in PPG, again, before factoring the effect of assists.

Or again in 31-32 where he finished 2nd in assists, 6th in points and 4th in ppg and his production was higher when playing right wing and it was his playing at centre that decreased his place in the scoring standings.

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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
Hooley was, in fact, a natural center in his pre-NHL years. He played for the granites and went to the Olympics, where he did epic things. There's actually some interesting material on that which can be found in google archives, though it wasn't really pertinent to the profile I did on him, so I left it out.
I am hesitant to judge players on what they did prior to the pros, on the Granites he was not even his teams best forward.

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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
The idea that I am trying to distort anything is silly. I said the same thing about Smith last year when he belonged to gmm. When I owned Smith in 2011, I was simply struck by how disproportionately his career (and team) success seems to be attached to the years that he played center, and I believe the facts back this up. I am trying to undo a distortion that has existed about this player for a long time, and on the side trying to undo a distortion which has existed about the S Line, which was actually a pretty crap unit in terms of talent vs. results.
I agree that the S Line was surprisingly mediocre for a unit that was so revered in it's day.

My problem is with the idea that there are years where he played centre. All my reading has pointed to him playing multiple positions in at least 8 seasons. And his 9 seasons where he likely played one position, it is an even 4/4 split at rw and c. And while the S-line years had some epic playoff flameouts, his Senators teams were generally strong. I have to suspect that the Maroons suffered more because they had a defensive liability at centre and replacing him with a great defender like Smith was a huge boost, more than anything to do with Smith's ability to play right wing. I do not think we can write off the importance of having well rounded players on his wings when he played centre and one dimensional players to the left of him when he was a rw. (Except when he was in Ottawa and team success was not elusive.)

I feel like you are ignoring the fact that coaches always used Smith to fill in where the team felt they needed help and what this means when judging his versatility.

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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
edit: please note that I am the only person who has actually defended Smith's placement in the top-100, and pointed out that his Hart record is extremely similar to Joliat's. I am one of his biggest fans. My opinion on where Hooley should be best deployed is neither here nor there.
I appreciate that. I'm just fighting for my selection because I believe in it and people seem to be questioning it. Too often in the past I've been timid in these situations, and I know I'm right in this situation.

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01-31-2013, 03:33 AM
  #437
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Originally Posted by MadArcand View Post
So is the consensus that going with Hull-Fedorov-Bure is insanity (though it's not really that different from the X-Fedorov-Bure line IRL)?
It is different, X does not require puck possession to be effective. Bure and Hull do.

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01-31-2013, 03:36 AM
  #438
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Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
I agree that the S Line was surprisingly mediocre for a unit that was so revered in it's day.
The S Line did more than score goals. They combined to create a terrifying physical force that has probably never been duplicated.

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01-31-2013, 03:46 AM
  #439
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The S Line did more than score goals. They combined to create a terrifying physical force that has probably never been duplicated.
Yes, they were a sort of early Legion of Doom. Thing is, though, that the Maroons won a Cup both before and after the formation of the S Line, but not while the unit was together.

I'll say more on this topic once all the members of the unit have been drafted.

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01-31-2013, 05:36 AM
  #440
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
Yes, they were a sort of early Legion of Doom. Thing is, though, that the Maroons won a Cup both before and after the formation of the S Line, but not while the unit was together.

I'll say more on this topic once all the members of the unit have been drafted.
All the guys who led the Cup-winning teams are alreadt drafted. Denneny-Nighbor, Joliat-Morenz, Cook-Boucher. There's no shame in not beating those lines, especially when they were actually backed up by NHL-quality defensemen and goalies.

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01-31-2013, 05:48 AM
  #441
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
Another really scary top line. Neither Goulet nor Geoffrion is a power forward, but both were good enough along the boards to be a plus, and having both of them on the line should be enough. Goulet is no Kurri, but he was defensively responsible, and gives the line a kind of safety valve. Indeed, he played that role for Gretzky briefly in real life, on the Goulet - Gretzky - Lemieux line of Canada Cup fame. Well-built unit.
Goulet is at least adequately defensively, but the line will be defensive by committee. Goulet's boardwork with Geoffrion's toughness definitely brings intangibles to the line.

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01-31-2013, 06:07 AM
  #442
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
All the guys who led the Cup-winning teams are alreadt drafted. Denneny-Nighbor, Joliat-Morenz, Cook-Boucher. There's no shame in not beating those lines, especially when they were actually backed up by NHL-quality defensemen and goalies.
But the Maroons did beat those lines in 1935 behind Hooley Smith, another ATDer, and a bunch of fringe ATD forwards.

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01-31-2013, 06:56 AM
  #443
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But the Maroons did beat those lines in 1935 behind Hooley Smith, another ATDer, and a bunch of fringe ATD forwards.
With conn smythe worthy goaltending.

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01-31-2013, 07:05 AM
  #444
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The Hershey Bears draft the perrenial all-star defenseman Ernie "Moose" Johnson, renowned for his skating, rough play, poke checking, resilience, competitiveness and success everywhere he went, at the highest levels of competition. "The Bull Moose", as he was described in 1912, was "sensational", having won Stanley Cup challenges in 1906, 1907, 1908, 1910. The future HHOFer went on to be a 1st team all-star in the PCHA for eight straight seasons 1912-1919. Ultimate Hockey awarded him five retro Norris (1914, 1915, 1916, 1918, 1919) after two retro Selke (1910, 1911), naming him “Best Defensive Defenseman” of 1910-19 as well as “Best Poke-Checker” of both decades 1900-09 and 1910-19. He also was given two retro Hart (1913, 1916). Moreover, at the end of Trail of the Stanley Cup Vol. 1, Charles Coleman selects his all-star team from 1893-1926 and Ernie Johnson was one of the defenseman he selected.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Regina Leader, Dec 24, 1921
"The Wonder Man of Hockey" That's what they're calling Moose Johnson around the Pacific Coast hockey loop.

Today he is reckoned as one of the hardest and most fearless players in professional hockeys.

Playing in the rover position, the Moose works havoc with opposing scoring divisions. He takes about as many hard cracks as any other individual in the puck sport and comes up smiling.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Vancouver Sun, Feb 14, 1927
Mr. Patrick brings word that Moose Johnson is the idol of Minneapolis hockey fans. The coast boss saw Johnson play in Winnipeg and he says the old boy is going just about as fast as ever. His famous nose-diving poke check by which he sweeps, with his tremendously long stick, everything in front of him as he dives, has been looked upon by acting referees down there as a foul.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ottawa Citizen, 1912-12-13
Ernie Johnson, the Westminster cover-point is a great drawing card, and one of the Vancouver/Westminster games may be transferred to Victoria so that the fans there may have an opportunity to see "The Cyclone" and "The Bull Moose" up against one another.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimate Hockey
Johnson was a powerful skater and one of the faster men of his day. Oddly, he played his entire career without any fingers on his right hand! In 1900, he lost the fingers after receiving a 2,300 volt electrical jolt.

Johnson was a regular First-Team All-Star on PCHA referee Mickey Ion's famous hand-picked squads and has been considered the finest all-around rearguard in hockey between 1900 and 1925. Regularly playing with broken jaws, fractured arms, even separated shoulders, Johnson was a gamer in the truest sense.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Montreal Gazette, 1906-01-06
Johnson was put out for some minutes with a crack on the arm, but aside from this, the two escaped injury. Both played excellent games for their respective teams, Johnson's work being particularly good. He went right into the thick of the fray and took all that was going.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Montreal Gazette, 1908-01-27
Johnson worked like a trojan, and never let up in following back when Quebec had possession of the puck.


Quote:
Originally Posted by The Trail Of the Stanley Cup, Vol. 1, 1916 Season
The game on December 14th was featured by a bulldozing stunt by Ernie Johnson. In a headlong rush he crashed into the boards and a whole section toppled over.

Ernie Johnson continued to play a rough game and drew the ire of president Lester Patrick for his work when the Rosebuds defeated the Mets January 7th.


Quote:
Originally Posted by NY Times, 1916-04-05
Moose Johnson was a tower of strength for Portland on both the offense and the defense, and it was his work that broke up the concerted attacks of Les Canadiens not once, but almost every time that he dove after the puck.

In the second period Moose Johnson began to show signs of his famous speed,...

Johnson was stopping most of the attacks of Les Canadiens before they got within hailing distance of the Portland goal...
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Trail Of the Stanley Cup, Vol. 1
A long and spectacular career... was the speedy left wing for the Wanderers... In those days there he was described as a six-footer with terrific speed, a bullet shot and indomitable courage... He developed a marvelous poke check and was a very difficult man to get around... developed an extraordinary skill at playing the puck rather than the man, although he was by no means backward with his bodychecking... In his first years in the PCHA he was a hard man to keep in training, and was inclined to draw useless penalties for rough play. However, when he steadied down there was no better defenseman in the estimation of those who saw him perform...He played eleven years in the PCHA, and was chosen as an all-star defenseman ten times. He was never sold or traded, being too valuable an attraction... He earned the nickname "Moose" for the fortitude he displayed in brushing off injuries that would put other players out of action for weeks. During his career he had his nose broken twice, received three bad cuts over his eyes, a piece cut from a thigh, many ankle cuts, and a badly gashed foot. Black eyes, jammed fingers and bruises didn't count. In spite of these injuries, he missed only twelve games in ten years of play... at times he was unpopular for his rough play... He developed the poke check so well to such an art that in his last few years with Victoria, Lester Patrick used him frequently at rover to spearhead the defense. In his final years with Victoria he had regained all his popularity and the fans applauded him everywhere. Near the close of the 1921 season a special Johnson night was held in Victoria. He was presented with a trophy from the PCHA inscribed "To Moose Johnson as a token of appreciation of his brilliant career as the greatest defense player in the PCHA during the past ten years."
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Trail Of the Stanley Cup, Vol. 1, 1922 Season
This was the final year for Ernie Johnson who was now beginning to show signs of slowing up but his great spirit and checking power kept him in the lineup... In a game against Seattle January 4th, Johnson was cut badly over the eye and had to be carried from the ice. Manager Patrick had to take away his skates to keep him from returning to the ice.

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01-31-2013, 07:26 AM
  #445
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The Hershey Bears draft 6'2, 210 lbs. defenseman Larry Murphy, the four-time Stanley Cup champion (1991, 1992, 1997, 1998) who is top-5 all time in NHL playoff points among defensemen with 152. He also is a three-time 2nd team all-star (1987, 1993, 1995) and scored 7 points for Team Canada in the epic '87 Canada Cup. He retired top-3 in NHL points and games played for a defenseman and was inducted in to the Hockey Hall of Fame in his first year of eligibility.



Quote:
...Steady, reliable and tremendously gifted offensively...
http://www.legendsofhockey.net/Legen...p?player=11161

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scotty Bowman, in The Hockey News, November 2004
"Murphy was a smart, studious player. It was his understanding of what he could do that made him special"
Quote:
... In 1980-81, his freshman season, Murphy recorded 16 goals and 60 assists for 76 points. The assists and point totals set records for a rookie defenseman. Larry finished as the runner-up for the league's Calder Memorial Trophy as the NHL's Rookie of the Year in 1979-80, which was collected by 25 year old Peter Stastny of the Quebec Nordiques. Murphy's point total was fourth on the Kings that season, behind only the Kings' vaunted Triple Crown Line of Marcel Dionne,...

In his second NHL season, Larry cracked the twenty-goal mark for the first of five times through his NHL career, finishing with 22. That total was fifth on the Kings in 19810-82, while his 66 points placed him fourth on the franchise's list that season.

Early in his fourth season with L.A., Larry was traded to the Washington Capitals. On October 18, 1983, the Kings sent Murphy to the Nation's Capital in exchange for Ken Houston and Brian Engblom. It turned out to be one of the most lopsided trades of all-time. While Houston and Engblom scored a combined 93 points over the remainder of their careers, Larry Murphy added another 1,009 points before retiring in 2001.

Larry Murphy continued his offensive exploits with Washington, earning his first selection to the NHL's All-Star Team in 1987. Murphy was selected to the league's Second Team after compiling 23 goals (a career best) and 81 points, the second highest total of his career.

As a Penguin, Murphy's offense bloomed once again, and in his first season in black and gold, Larry and his Pittsburgh teammates collected the Stanley Cup; the first in franchise history. In 1991-92, Larry scored 21 goals and 77 points and helped the Penguins win a second straight Stanley Cup championship. During his stint with Pittsburgh, Larry was named to the NHL's Second Team All-Star in 1993, enjoying a career year with 85 points, compiled from his 22 goals and 63 assists. Murphy was named to the Second All-Star Team again in 1995 while playing with the Penguins.

During the summer of 1995, Larry Murphy was traded to the Toronto Maple Leafs in return for Dmitri Mironov and a second round draft selection. He spent nearly two tumultuous years in Toronto before the Detroit Red Wings secured the talented defenseman for their run for the Stanley Cup late into the 1996-97 season. The deal reinvigorated Murphy, and he played a significant role in the Red Wings' Stanley Cup victory that spring. Paralleling the feat accomplished by the Murphy-led Pittsburgh Penguins earlier in the decade, Larry was again part of back-to-back championships when the Red Wings claimed their second consecutive Cup in 1998. The forty-year-old Murphy retired in 2001 after a stellar 21-season career which included five 20-goal seasons, eleven 60-point seasons plus two Canada Cup championships (1987 and 1991).

Murphy left the game ranked second all-time in NHL games played and third all-time in assists and points by a defenseman. His astonishing totals include 287 goals and 929 assists for 1,216 points through 1,615 regular season contests. In 215 playoff games, Larry added 37 goals and 115 assists for 152 points.
http://www.legendsofhockey.net/Legen...p?player=11161


Last edited by VanIslander: 01-31-2013 at 07:56 AM.
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01-31-2013, 07:37 AM
  #446
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It was between Johnson and this guy for us, not sure if he'll be paired with Quackenbush or not yet, but his all around game is very impressive.

Georges Boucher, D



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01-31-2013, 07:40 AM
  #447
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LL texted me to pick Rick Middleton, RW for the Maple Leafs.


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01-31-2013, 08:10 AM
  #448
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Velociraptor View Post
LL texted me to pick Rick Middleton, RW for the Maple Leafs.
I think he was deserving of a bump. (not sure of this big a one but still)

He is an underrated, great, two way player.

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01-31-2013, 08:33 AM
  #449
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I think he was deserving of a bump. (not sure of this big a one but still)

He is an underrated, great, two way player.
I was thinking the same. A deserving bump, but perhaps this is too far.

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01-31-2013, 09:43 AM
  #450
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Hey folks just waiting for my brother to get out of class to discuss this pick. Short list was picked apart pretty good in the last ten selections. Probably gonna be a couple hours.

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