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ATD 2013 - Draft Thread II

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02-01-2013, 10:21 AM
  #501
Dreakmur
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Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
Ditto, echoes the sentiment of Hedberg and I with: Mark Howe - Moose Johnson
Vecens was sure you were taking Stuart. I'm not sure why you didn't, but we're glad to benefit from it.

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02-01-2013, 10:22 AM
  #502
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Originally Posted by Dreakmur
Vecens was sure you were taking Stuart. I'm not sure why you didn't, but we're glad to benefit from it.
Posturing! .... We ARE divisional rivals, so it is to be expected, I guess.

Moose Johnson vs. Hod Stuart as a partner for Mark Howe. Hmmm....

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02-01-2013, 10:29 AM
  #503
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The Minnesota Fighting Saints select, from Collingwood Ontario, Canada, a versatile bull of a man who was top 8 in scoring for 7 of the 8 seasons he played forward, Reg Noble, LW/D/C

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02-01-2013, 10:36 AM
  #504
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With our fifth selection, the 141st overall in this year All-Time Draft, les Nordiques de Québec are very proud to select, from Platsville, Ontario, D/LW Albert 'Babe' Siebert




''We are excited to add Babe Siebert to our team. A true utility player, Siebert can play both on the Left Wing and on defence. He was one of the strongest hockey player of his generation. A very speedy and agile skater, his physical strength and relentless determination fits perfectly in our team needs and concept. We feel very fortunate to add such a complete hockey player to our squad.''

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02-01-2013, 10:48 AM
  #505
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I think Hod Stuart was a better player than Moose Johnson, but I like Johnson better next to Mark Howe.

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02-01-2013, 10:56 AM
  #506
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I think Hod Stuart was a better player than Moose Johnson, but I like Johnson better next to Mark Howe.
Yeah I had the same thought process with a partner for Leetch. Someone was gonna get great value with Hod falling, but I'd rather stick him on the second pair if you started your defense with a more offensively-inclined guy.

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02-01-2013, 11:00 AM
  #507
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Originally Posted by Bring Back Scuderi View Post
Yeah I had the same thought process with a partner for Leetch. Someone was gonna get great value with Hod falling, but I'd rather stick him on the second pair if you started your defense with a more offensively-inclined guy.
I drafted Hod in the 150s last year. I think some GMs are still scared of the really early players.

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02-01-2013, 11:36 AM
  #508
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I drafted Hod in the 150s last year. I think some GMs are still scared of the really early players.
Good point, I think he only "fell" insofar as other defensemen shouldn't be drafted ahead of him, but there does seem to be an aversion. Maybe you can ham up the WPHL/IPHL inferiority angle to justify that for his particular case, but I thought he was the BDA at 123 when I was picking.


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02-01-2013, 11:55 AM
  #509
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I think Hod Stuart was a better player than Moose Johnson, but I like Johnson better next to Mark Howe.
I was questioning Larry Murphy more than Moose Johnson...

Moose and Hod are close, so I undertsnd taking a better fit - that's why we took Seibert over Cleghorn after all.

The big issue is that Moose was just one of the two defensemen he picked. Why take an inferior player to start your second pair.

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02-01-2013, 11:56 AM
  #510
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Originally Posted by Bring Back Scuderi View Post
Good point, I think he only "fell" insofar as other defensemen shouldn't be drafted ahead of him, but there does seem to be an aversion. Maybe you can ham up the WPHL/IPHL inferiority angle to justify that for his particular case, but I thought he was the BDA at 123 when I was picking.
The earliest evidence we have of Hod being considered great is 1903, when he was named an all-star for the first time. The positive quotes start showing up in 1904. He died in 1907. I don't have too many doubts about his ability, but I think we're talking about a player with basically a 5 year peak, and not much else. I'm not at all convinced that makes him better than his current draft position, or better than Babe Siebert, for that matter, who had a lot of good years at wing (including some placements in various top-10 scoring lists) before one good year on defense and three excellent ones.

I like Hod; he was my #3 defenseman the first time I won one of these things. Excellent all-around defenseman, but the era is a question, as is the 4-5 season peak. Putting his career in perspective, I have a hard time justifying his placement in the HOH project, which is I think where a lot of these pro-Hod arguments are coming from. I definitely don't think he's on the level of the Laperriere/Pronovost/Ching group.

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02-01-2013, 11:57 AM
  #511
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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
I was questioning Larry Murphy more than Moose Johnson...

Moose and Hod are close, so I undertsnd taking a better fit - that's why we took Seibert over Cleghorn after all.

The big issue is that Moose was just one of the two defensemen he picked. Why take an inferior player to start your second pair.
I don't get Larry Murphy there, either. There are defensemen still available who were better.

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02-01-2013, 12:07 PM
  #512
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
The earliest evidence we have of Hod being considered great is 1903, when he was named an all-star for the first time. The positive quotes start showing up in 1904. He died in 1907. I don't have too many doubts about his ability, but I think we're talking about a player with basically a 5 year peak, and not much else. I'm not at all convinced that makes him better than his current draft position, or better than Babe Siebert, for that matter, who had a lot of good years at wing (including some placements in various top-10 scoring lists) before one good year on defense and three excellent ones.

I like Hod; he was my #3 defenseman the first time I won one of these things. Excellent all-around defenseman, but the era is a question, as is the 4-5 season peak. Putting his career in perspective, I have a hard time justifying his placement in the HOH project, which is I think where a lot of these pro-Hod arguments are coming from. I definitely don't think he's on the level of the Laperriere/Pronovost/Ching group.
I agree with this, the short peak is the biggest concern. He's good value right where he is. As a #2 d-man the question marks are easy to work around. But I'd probably go hard on him as a #1 d-man. And I think it's a pretty established fact that I'm not anti-older era players.

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02-01-2013, 12:12 PM
  #513
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So Hod was at his peak from 1903-1907? That's a longer peak than Scott Niedermayer

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02-01-2013, 12:15 PM
  #514
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So Hod was at his peak from 1903-1907? That's a longer peak than Scott Niedermayer
But Niedermeyer's non-peak blows Stuart's out of the water.

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02-01-2013, 12:17 PM
  #515
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
The earliest evidence we have of Hod being considered great is 1903, when he was named an all-star for the first time. The positive quotes start showing up in 1904. He died in 1907. I don't have too many doubts about his ability, but I think we're talking about a player with basically a 5 year peak, and not much else. I'm not at all convinced that makes him better than his current draft position, or better than Babe Siebert, for that matter, who had a lot of good years at wing (including some placements in various top-10 scoring lists) before one good year on defense and three excellent ones.

I like Hod; he was my #3 defenseman the first time I won one of these things. Excellent all-around defenseman, but the era is a question, as is the 4-5 season peak. Putting his career in perspective, I have a hard time justifying his placement in the HOH project, which is I think where a lot of these pro-Hod arguments are coming from. I definitely don't think he's on the level of the Laperriere/Pronovost/Ching group.
I think that's a very fair concern, but if I were a skeptic I'd have a hard time taking his All-Star spots all that seriously. The WPHL was not a deep league. It feels to me like the arguments made against Makarov in the Soviet league.

I have Hod in that group because I think his peak was just so immense compared to the field. He wasn't just the best defender, but possibly the best player in the world. Maybe that's a flimsy justification considering I lump Goodfellow below and he won a Hart, but even 15ish years after he was dead the MacLean's all-time list thought he was 1st or 2nd with Sprague.

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02-01-2013, 12:20 PM
  #516
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I don't get Larry Murphy there, either. There are defensemen still available who were better.
Because people are looking at where he was taken last year without realising he was taken earlier than he shouldve been so we could pair him with Lidström.

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02-01-2013, 12:25 PM
  #517
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Because people are looking at where he was taken last year without realising he was taken earlier than he shouldve been so we could pair him with Lidström.
Agree...I think his spot was justified last year to re-unite a pair that you know is going to work.


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02-01-2013, 12:52 PM
  #518
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
So Hod was at his peak from 1903-1907? That's a longer peak than Scott Niedermayer
If his peak was only 1903-07, then he was leading his league in defense scoring before he peaked... Which is pretty impressive!

Hod Stuart was a top-end offensive threat staring in 1900. He may not have been the best player in the world, as he would become a few years later, but those first few years of the 1900s were very good seasons.

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02-01-2013, 12:58 PM
  #519
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Originally Posted by Bring Back Scuderi View Post
I think that's a very fair concern, but if I were a skeptic I'd have a hard time taking his All-Star spots all that seriously. The WPHL was not a deep league. It feels to me like the arguments made against Makarov in the Soviet league.

I have Hod in that group because I think his peak was just so immense compared to the field. He wasn't just the best defender, but possibly the best player in the world. Maybe that's a flimsy justification considering I lump Goodfellow below and he won a Hart, but even 15ish years after he was dead the MacLean's all-time list thought he was 1st or 2nd with Sprague.
The MacLean's all-time list had, I think, a pretty obvious bias towards the real old-timers, though. I submit Clint Benedict and Newsy Lalonde as the 3rd best players at their respective positions as exhibit A.

I think this is about where Stuart belongs. I think he had an excellent peak, but that's it. 4-5 seasons of excellent play (we'll be generous and call it five), and very little else. I can think of an undrafted defenseman with an extremely similar profile. Was Hod the best in the world? Maybe, but look at the other candidates for best in the world at that time. Only one of them, Phillips, has been drafted.

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02-01-2013, 12:59 PM
  #520
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The MacLean's all-time list had, I think, a pretty obvious bias towards the real old-timers, though. I submit Clint Benedict and Newsy Lalonde as the 3rd best players at their respective positions as exhibit A.

I think this is about where Stuart belongs. I think he had an excellent peak, but that's it. 4-5 seasons of excellent play (we'll be generous and call it five), and very little else. I can think of an undrafted defenseman with an extremely similar profile. Was Hod the best in the world? Maybe, but look at the other candidates for best in the world at that time. Only one of them, Phillips, has been drafted.
If it's the same list I'm thinking of, it also had a strong eastern bias.

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02-01-2013, 01:00 PM
  #521
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If his peak was only 1903-07, then he was leading his league in defense scoring before he peaked... Which is pretty impressive!
But was not an all-star in a shallow league. Given the competitive level, I think we need to maintain a high standard for what we credit as greatness. For me, that standard is at least all-star status. Other GMs may disagree.

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02-01-2013, 01:13 PM
  #522
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
...I like Hod; he was my #3 defenseman the first time I won one of these things. Excellent all-around defenseman, but the era is a question, as is the 4-5 season peak. Putting his career in perspective, I have a hard time justifying his placement in the HOH project, which is I think where a lot of these pro-Hod arguments are coming from. I definitely don't think he's on the level of the Laperriere/Pronovost/Ching group.
Agreed. I don't look at the HoH page when I'm researching my picks. Hod was great, but I'm not positive he's better than all the drafted dmen he was ranked on top of in the Top 60 dmen project. We as a group may not be either. Except for Kasatonov, all of them were picked before Hod.

37 3 Ivan "Ching" Johnson 5'11" 210 1898 1979 1926-1938 Canada
38 2 Jacques Laperrière 6'2" 190 1941 1962-1974 Canada
39 7 Alexei Kasatonov 6'1" 215 1959 1976–1997 Russia
40 3 Jean-Claude Tremblay 5'11 170 1939 1994 1960-1979 Canada
41 Ernest "Moose" Johnson 5'11 185 1896 1963 1905-1931 Canada
42 33 Zdeno Chára 6'9" 255 1977 1998-Present Slovakia
43 5 Ebbie Goodfellow 6'0" 175 1907 1985 1929-1943 Canada
44 4 Rob Blake 6'4" 220 1969 1990-2010 Canada
45 3 Emile "Butch" Bouchard http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1029907

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02-01-2013, 01:14 PM
  #523
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If it's the same list I'm thinking of, it also had a strong eastern bias.
That's the one.

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02-01-2013, 01:16 PM
  #524
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Agreed. I don't look at the HoH page when I'm researching my picks. Hod was great, but I'm not positive he's better than all the drafted dmen he was ranked on top of in the Top 60 dmen project. We as a group may not be either. Except for Kasatonov, all of them were picked before Hod.

37 3 Ivan "Ching" Johnson 5'11" 210 1898 1979 1926-1938 Canada
38 2 Jacques Laperrière 6'2" 190 1941 1962-1974 Canada
39 7 Alexei Kasatonov 6'1" 215 1959 1976–1997 Russia
40 3 Jean-Claude Tremblay 5'11 170 1939 1994 1960-1979 Canada
41 Ernest "Moose" Johnson 5'11 185 1896 1963 1905-1931 Canada
42 33 Zdeno Chára 6'9" 255 1977 1998-Present Slovakia
43 5 Ebbie Goodfellow 6'0" 175 1907 1985 1929-1943 Canada
44 4 Rob Blake 6'4" 220 1969 1990-2010 Canada
45 3 Emile "Butch" Bouchard http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1029907
Of that group, I would consider taking him ahead of Bouchard and Kasatonov, but that's it. The others...no way.

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02-01-2013, 02:51 PM
  #525
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someone draft someone

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