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Old
01-27-2013, 10:46 PM
  #101
Corleone
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good fans... terrible arm chair GM's

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01-27-2013, 10:47 PM
  #102
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We might be a bipolar bunch of fans, but at least we are fans. Most NHL teams don't have fans, and with respect to the few NHL teams that have fans, we probably outnumber all of those small fanbases combined.

The NHL probably could not exist without Leafs fans, and certainly most of the teams could not be financially solvent without our generous handouts. Revenue sharing basically means that Leafs fans have to give handouts so other teams can live another day.

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01-27-2013, 10:51 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Drew311 View Post
I don't get all of the pessimism. What exactly did people expect out of this season?

I thought most fans realized we would suck this year. Why all of the whining? Nonis and Carlyle are letting the kids play, I'm thankful that we got rid of Connolly and Lombadri so our prospects have a chance to get some real ice time. With youth comes mistakes, and there's going to be a lot of them. People just need to relax.

It all comes down to the fraction of the fanbase that just loves something to complain about.
Still have to get rid of MacArthur if we're truly getting rid of all the spare parts and letting the kids play.

Still need to address the goaltending situation. Neither Reimer nor Scrivens will ever become #1 NHL goaltenders. No point letting them (Reimer & Scrivens) play, because they are not going to develop into anything worthwhile. The 'let the kids play' strategy only works when we have kids that have potential (e.g., Kadri, Frattin, Gardiner, JVR, etc.).

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01-27-2013, 10:56 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by saffronleaf View Post
We might be a bipolar bunch of fans, but at least we are fans. Most NHL teams don't have fans, and with respect to the few NHL teams that have fans, we probably outnumber all of those small fanbases combined.

The NHL probably could not exist without Leafs fans, and certainly most of the teams could not be financially solvent without our generous handouts. Revenue sharing basically means that Leafs fans have to give handouts so other teams can live another day.
I hate the Yankees but as a Jays fan I realize they subsidise us with their ridiculous payroll but I still think in the NHL system Toronto gets the scatend of the stick

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01-27-2013, 10:56 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by saffronleaf View Post
Still have to get rid of MacArthur if we're truly getting rid of all the spare parts and letting the kids play.

Still need to address the goaltending situation. Neither Reimer nor Scrivens will ever become #1 NHL goaltenders. No point letting them (Reimer & Scrivens) play, because they are not going to develop into anything worthwhile. The 'let the kids play' strategy only works when we have kids that have potential (e.g., Kadri, Frattin, Gardiner, JVR, etc.).
But aren't there a few goalies due to hit free agency this summer? Even if only 2-3 of them make it to free agency it might be an idea to ride Reimer and Scrivens this season and then see what can be landed in free agency. If nothing then trades can be explored.

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01-27-2013, 10:58 PM
  #106
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Yeah we are the biggest Homers in NHL for sure.

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01-27-2013, 10:59 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Stix and Stones View Post
Exactly what I'm thinking. The majority are fine with going with youth, drafting and waiting to develop. Yet everyday we read, we suck what are we going to do.

Hey don't sweat it, everything is going according to plan.
I don't think it's a situation where there are two different types of fans; (1) fans with patience and understanding, with an eye to the long-term objectives of the franchise, and (2) fans without patience and understanding, with an eye to the short-term objective of making the playoffs.

Rather, I think for the most part that all of us belong to both categories. I know that it is reasonable and wise to join Tank Nation, that we are rebuilding, that we will make mistakes, that the real joy is in watching the kids develop into a strong team over the long term. That being said, when you sit down and watch a game played by your favorite team, for whom you have cheered for since you were a child, you will get emotionally caught up in it. So many people, including myself, subscribe to Tank Nation, but when we're up 2-0 in a game, you just get caught up in the game and want to cheer for your favorite franchise to succeed and win the game. When the Leafs pull their goaltender, I know it is probably better to lose the game and get a high draft pick, but I'm still on the edge of my seat hoping someone from our team scores. And when that doesn't happen, I'm still left with the short-term disappointment, despite the fact that the loss may further long-term objectives.

More than anything, I think that's largely a part of human nature. It is why we have things like social security. We are not stupid -- we know and understand that the reasonable course of action is to save money for our retirement. But after two weeks of hard work, and the weekend rolls along, and your favorite team is hosting its rival the Montreal Canadiens, almost all of us will get that strong impulse to spend an exorbitant amount on some nice seats for the game. That's why we need structural checks like social security.

That does not mean that there aren't those who might prefer playoffs this year as opposed to building a successful team in the long-term; and that does not mean that there aren't those who do not get emotionally get caught up in the midst of a game, and remain stoic even when most of us are on the edge of our seats with our fingers crossed. But I think that the vast majority of us fall somewhere in the middle of that. And watching from afar, that might seem to reek of hypocrisy. But I think that's just human nature.


Last edited by saffronleaf: 01-27-2013 at 11:08 PM.
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01-27-2013, 11:00 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by saffronleaf View Post
Still have to get rid of MacArthur if we're truly getting rid of all the spare parts and letting the kids play.

Still need to address the goaltending situation. Neither Reimer nor Scrivens will ever become #1 NHL goaltenders. No point letting them (Reimer & Scrivens) play, because they are not going to develop into anything worthwhile. The 'let the kids play' strategy only works when we have kids that have potential (e.g., Kadri, Frattin, Gardiner, JVR, etc.).
Trading Kessel will help in that Department. A 1G should be very high on this organizations needs. Unfortunately they take the longest to develop - we should be watching Rask right now - instead we'll have to acquire an emerging star ready to make the leap to primetime through Kessel.

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01-27-2013, 11:02 PM
  #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erdinger View Post
I hate the Yankees but as a Jays fan I realize they subsidise us with their ridiculous payroll but I still think in the NHL system Toronto gets the scatend of the stick
Fair enough, but I don't think anyone will accuse the Yankees' fans of being the worst fans in the MLB...

The other obvious difference is that there is no salary cap in the MLB. Yankees make a lot of money, give some handouts, and spend the rest on their team. Leafs make a lot of money, give some handouts, and cannot spend the rest on their team.


Last edited by saffronleaf: 01-27-2013 at 11:11 PM.
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01-27-2013, 11:07 PM
  #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveT83 View Post
Trading Kessel will help in that Department. A 1G should be very high on this organizations needs. Unfortunately they take the longest to develop - we should be watching Rask right now - instead we'll have to acquire an emerging star ready to make the leap to primetime through Kessel.
I wish we got Lindback. He seems to be playing well for the Bolts. But as you said, goaltenders take a while to develop. And on top of that, it is difficult to reliably predict how goaltenders will pan out.

I really like Kessel, so it would be difficult for me to support trading him. I agree that on a cup contending team, you can't have Kessel as your best forward. He's one of the best complementary players, though. Pair him with a legitimate 1C, and you'll immediately have one of the best lines in the league.

As has been the case since Sundin retired, we need a 1C; and as has been the case since Belfour left, we need a #1 goaltender.

I think perhaps some of the anger from Leafs fans comes from the fact that these two incredibly important positions have been left vacant for so long, and there doesn't seem to be anyone from within our system that can fill the void. Although, I really, really hope that Kadri can become a 1C. But that seems too optimistic; most people have him pegged as a solid 2C -- which is nevertheless great.

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01-27-2013, 11:12 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by colchar View Post
I am beginning to think that you are only partially literate. Everyone knows there is a difference between the cap floor and the cap ceiling. But that isn't what you said...what you said was "the salary cap that allows the leafs to spend up $16 million more than a substantial amount of the competition" and that is simply not true. Toronto is not allowed to spend $16 million more than a substantial amount of the competition - all teams are allowed to spend within the same cap parameters. If you had said that Toronto is able to spend more then you would have been correct but you did not say that, you said allowed which implies that there is one cap for Toronto and another cap for other teams. Don't get uppity with me just because you cannot form coherent sentences.




Really? Wow, thanks for the news flash! Is that really how it works?







Please learn to write at least semi-coherent sentences before you go getting all uppity. I'm not sure if you have the literacy skills to grasp what you actually said but go back and read your post again and then go look up the difference between the words 'allowed' and 'able'. Maybe then you'll get it...but I somehow doubt it.
My original post in this thread said that the leafs have a dramatic financial advantage over a substantial amount I the competition.
You response by saying "ever hear of the salary cap?"

I personally think that you actually didnt know that there is a $16 million gap between the cap ceiling and floor. As amazon as that is... You actually don't know.
Now you're embarrassed and are makin lame excuses.

Now that you know the facts, do you now agree that the leafs have a dramatic financial advantage over a substantial amount of the completion?
Or are you going I respond with something utterly ridiculous and asinine again, and say "ever hear I the cap?"
Lol
What a joke.

I am literally excited to see you try and spin your way out of this again.

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Old
01-27-2013, 11:44 PM
  #112
Tak7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erdinger View Post
I hate the Yankees but as a Jays fan I realize they subsidise us with their ridiculous payroll but I still think in the NHL system Toronto gets the scatend of the stick
Still think that would be the case if the fans didn't fill the ACC every night?

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Old
01-28-2013, 12:38 AM
  #113
7even
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These Carlyle/Kessel/Phaneuf threads are killing me. I feel like I agree with like a 10% minority of posters on here. And I can't stand how bipolar this place is. There is no middle ground -- we're about to go 82-0 or the sky is falling and we're the worst team ever. It's annoying as all hell.

But you know what that means? It means people care. People care enough to make a "is Kadri a budding star?" thread because he went on a point streak and they care enough to freak out when Dion's a -8 five games in. They care enough to give two ***** after we've done nothing but suck ass for 10 years. That's pretty damn impressive.

So let's drop the in-fighting. Interactif and hotpaws and DO and MapleLeafsGardens and all you other fine gents it seems I never, ever agree with, you guys are the best sports fans on the planet, and we're going to burn this mother down when we finally win

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01-28-2013, 01:20 AM
  #114
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my favorite is these loud mouths calling in on radio programs that talk all negative and start throwing around stats that arent even accurate and they talk in a huffy thick voice like theyre some big doofus. 50% of the callers about the leafs are like this.

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01-28-2013, 01:26 AM
  #115
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I'm a positive person but leaf fan are definitely bi-polar and I can't say I blame them. Leafs management continue to rag doll this team to the ground, start thinking with your head. I'm talking to you MLSE and Nonis.

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01-28-2013, 01:41 AM
  #116
colchar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
My original post in this thread said that the leafs have a dramatic financial advantage over a substantial amount I the competition.
You response by saying "ever hear of the salary cap?"

Yes, because that advantage only stretches as far as the cap ceiling. They have an advantage, but not an unlimited one.


Quote:
I personally think that you actually didnt know that there is a $16 million gap between the cap ceiling and floor.

I was well aware of it, you are the one who stated that the Leafs are 'allowed' to spend more than other teams which is simply not true as all teams are constrained by the cap ceiling. The Leafs are able to spend more than other teams because they have more cap space, but that is something else entirely and is not what you said.



Quote:
As amazon as that is... You actually don't know.
Nice try Skippy, but I did know. The problem is that you cannot form a proper sentence which is further demonstrated by the fact that you just said 'amazon' when the word you were looking for was 'amazing'. Maybe if you were a little more literate, your posts would be more understandable. So don't get uppity with me because you cannot write properly, go get uppity with whichever high school you graduated from as they certainly didn't do their job very well did they?



Quote:
Now that you know the facts, do you now agree that the leafs have a dramatic financial advantage over a substantial amount of the completion?
I never disputed the fact that the Leafs have a financial advantage in that they have a decent amount of cap space. What you don't seem to realize is that that cap space doesn't kick in until this summer. Once this summer rolls around they have $16 million to work with but you are acting as if they have that today, which they do not.

Quote:
Or are you going I respond with something utterly ridiculous and asinine again, and say "ever hear I the cap?"
Wow, you are so illiterate that you cannot even re-type what someone else has written eh? Maybe you should try copying and pasting next time.


Quote:
What a joke.
Yes, your spelling and grammar are a joke. Actually, they are sad enough that they aren't funny. They are, however, a sad indictment of the education system.


Quote:
I am literally excited to see you try and spin your way out of this again.
I haven't spun my way out of anything Skippy, you are the one trying to spin the fact that you can barely read and write properly. Have you bothered to look up the difference between 'allowed' and 'able' yet? Since I doubt you would be able to look them up if you tried, would you like me to provide links to the definitions to give you a helping hand?

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01-28-2013, 02:26 AM
  #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by colchar View Post
Yes, because that advantage only stretches as far as the cap ceiling. They have an advantage, but not an unlimited one.





I was well aware of it, you are the one who stated that the Leafs are 'allowed' to spend more than other teams which is simply not true as all teams are constrained by the cap ceiling. The Leafs are able to spend more than other teams because they have more cap space, but that is something else entirely and is not what you said.





Nice try Skippy, but I did know. The problem is that you cannot form a proper sentence which is further demonstrated by the fact that you just said 'amazon' when the word you were looking for was 'amazing'. Maybe if you were a little more literate, your posts would be more understandable. So don't get uppity with me because you cannot write properly, go get uppity with whichever high school you graduated from as they certainly didn't do their job very well did they?





I never disputed the fact that the Leafs have a financial advantage in that they have a decent amount of cap space. What you don't seem to realize is that that cap space doesn't kick in until this summer. Once this summer rolls around they have $16 million to work with but you are acting as if they have that today, which they do not.



Wow, you are so illiterate that you cannot even re-type what someone else has written eh? Maybe you should try copying and pasting next time.




Yes, your spelling and grammar are a joke. Actually, they are sad enough that they aren't funny. They are, however, a sad indictment of the education system.




I haven't spun my way out of anything Skippy, you are the one trying to spin the fact that you can barely read and write properly. Have you bothered to look up the difference between 'allowed' and 'able' yet? Since I doubt you would be able to look them up if you tried, would you like me to provide links to the definitions to give you a helping hand?
I don't know how I can be any clearer...
The leafs have rich owners, and allow their gm To spend to the cap ceiling.
A substantial amount of other owners are losing money, and only allow their GM's to spend close to the basement.
That's a $16 million difference.
So the leafs GM has a $16 million advantage over a substantial amount of the competition.

Why on earth is that so difficult to understand?
I'll admit...
I am writing on my iPod touch and i'll agree that auto correct has made some weird corrections.

I am well aware that the words 'amazon' and 'amazing' mean entirely different things.

Being that you're so ridiculously concerned about these typos, I think it's best i I wait till I'm behind an actual computer before responding further.


Last edited by Disgruntled Observer: 01-28-2013 at 02:33 AM.
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01-28-2013, 02:32 AM
  #118
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Yes. If we hadn't lost on Saturday those tank threads wouldn't be up. People need to use some logic when making posts like that, not base their opinion off of two games. All teams lose, it's going to happen.

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01-28-2013, 09:34 AM
  #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
I don't know how I can be any clearer...
You haven't been clear in the majority of your posts because they have been semi-literate screeds about booing the team even when it does well. learn to form proper sentences and maybe whatever you are trying to say will become more apparent.


Quote:
The leafs have rich owners, and allow their gm To spend to the cap ceiling.
A substantial amount of other owners are losing money, and only allow their GM's to spend close to the basement.
That's a $16 million difference.

Great deductive powers there Sherlock. But what you said, more than once, was that Toronto is allowed to spend more than other teams which simply is not true. They are able to spend more, but that is not the same thing. As I've told you several times already, you need to look up the definitions of 'allowed' and 'able'.


Quote:
So the leafs GM has a $16 million advantage over a substantial amount of the competition.
Not yet they don't. That does not kick in until this summer. Are you as unable to read a calender as you are unable to form proper sentences?


Quote:
Why on earth is that so difficult to understand?
See above. Why is it so difficult for you to understand that they do not have $16 million in cap space right now and won't have that until this summer?


Quote:
I am writing on my iPod touch and i'll agree that auto correct has made some weird corrections.
Then turn the freakin' autocorrect off ffs. But that still does not explain your inability to differentiate between 'allowed' and 'able'.

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01-28-2013, 09:35 AM
  #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDoubleDion87 View Post
Yes. If we hadn't lost on Saturday those tank threads wouldn't be up. People need to use some logic when making posts like that, not base their opinion off of two games. All teams lose, it's going to happen.
There were tank threads during training camp.

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01-28-2013, 09:42 AM
  #121
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I wouldn't say this board is the best way to get an idea of your average Leaf fan. But if you do go by this place, we are one of the worst, along with the Rangers. We have a lot of reactionary fans with the patience and foresight of a 2 year old.

I mean if most of people think Dion/Kessel are the problems with this team, and not the lack of quality throughout the lineup, you have to just sit back and for a good 10 mins before being able to think straight. Every mistake these guys make gets maginified 100 fold. If you read the PGT's after a loss, and you had no idea who Kessel/Phaneuf were, you'd think they are bottom of the barrel scraps.

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01-28-2013, 09:47 AM
  #122
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Originally Posted by Brewsky View Post
Nope, we've been filling the building since 67, the last time they won the Cup, to support them.

If anything, Leafs fans are the best, most loyal fanbase known to mankind.
Either that, or the dumbest.

Its all about perspective.

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01-28-2013, 09:53 AM
  #123
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Depends on your definition of "worst".

Montreal and Toronto have probably the largest fanbases and, as such, are the loudest outside the rink and not everything that comes out of our collective mouth is intelligent. Far from it.


But keep in mind this is a team that has been at the bottom of the standings for the better part of a decade now and the only team in that span to not make the playoffs; in essence, we have not been dead last from season to season but overall we have been the worst team in the league in terms of results. If you're expecting us to be saints about this phenomenon, you're asking too much. Frustration is warranted.

Yet Leafs fans still stream to games and watch faithfully. To me, this makes us either the most loyal of fans....or the dumbest. Or both.

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01-28-2013, 10:11 AM
  #124
MajorityRules
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
Yes, leaf fans are 100% the worst fans in the NHL.

But for entirely different reasons than what the OP is suggesting.

The 'good' leaf fans are the ones that are critical of the pathetic organization. Not the ones blindly defending it.

The leafs are the richest team in the league with dramatic financial advantages over a substantial amount of the competition (even with the cap), yet still have the longest cup AND playoff drought.

If the leafs had 'good' fans, EVERY thread on this forum would be negative. EVERY fan should be utterly irate, posting entirely in all caps, wih bolded lettering.

Fans should be booing the team the very SECOND the team steps on the ice, till the very moment they leave. Even when we score... Even when we win a game (I know it's rare), we should boo.

Good leaf fans would be throwing waffles on the ice every possible second. Not just at home, but on the road. W have such a big fan base that we could do this. We should make the entire sport unplayable due to waffles. We should throw waffles at players on the street, at the acc at all times, at the leafs bus, and at the players families.

These are things that "good" fans would do.

Unfortunately, Toronto is full of terrible fans who blindly cheer and make excuses for he inexcusable.
So yes... The leafs DEFINITELY have te worst fans in the NHL.
I disagree with the OP. He used the wrong word. Leaf fans are not the worst. Substitute worst with dumbest and I'd be more inclined to agree and the post above is a perfect example

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01-28-2013, 10:12 AM
  #125
MajorityRules
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
People like bomber and myself are REAL fans who have supported the team for decades.

As REAL fans of the team, we are rightfully IRATE at the disastrous team management has created.

I realize it may hurt your feelings, but you are a BAD fan, and it's that precise complacency in leaf fans that has created such an apathetic ownership.

Think of it from the owners perspective... No matter how much they **** up, leaf fans like you will still blindly cheer and make excuses. No wonder this organization is what it is.
I'm convinced more than ever that you and bomber are the same person.

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