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David Desharnais Discussion (Slow Start & Contact Talk)

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Old
02-06-2013, 06:03 AM
  #501
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Originally Posted by muzion View Post
What I'm saying is all these guys played at least a few games with Plek last year, and all of them performed under expectations wit him. He didn't create anything 5 on 5 thus lost his spot to DD. He had a bad year, deal with it.

People rag on DD for only reaching the 60 pt mark as a no 1 center, well he would have put up the same career highs that Plek did with a healthy Markov. So thrashing him for that is ridiculous. He created a lot of offense at even strength, something we've been lacking it seems forever, and for people to not recognize that is unfortunate.
prove it.

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02-06-2013, 07:40 AM
  #502
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The point is that DD only got 8 more points than Plekanec in spite of being in a vastly and comprehensively superior situation:

- Plekanec was up against a Corsi Rel Qoc of +0.905, DD was up against +0.007.
- Plekanec played with Staubitz, White, Moen, Darche; whereas DD played with Cole and Pacioretty.
- Plekanec had even-strength 308 offensive zone starts, whereas DD had 347 even-strength offensive zone starts, a massive 13% difference.
- Plekanec played 16 fewer minutes on the PP and 17 fewer minutes on ES.

In spite of all these advantages, some of which are massive, DD only had 8 more points, and 1 fewer goals. Ergo, it is clear that Plekanec is the superior offensive player. He's also superior defensively. Galchenyuk will soon be superior offensively. Where does that leave DD?

As some place else than a top-6 center. He could be, for example, a top-6 winger who becomes a top-6 center when there's an injury, that would be quite fine.
I agree that Plekanec is better at both ends of the rink, however I don't see a rush to move DD. Playing Galchenyuk top 6 minutes right now would be a mistake. A lot of cup winners have more than 3 centers playing top 9 minutes...Pittsburgh LA Detroit Boston. I don't see the need to move any of the 4 as one can always play wing, plus injuries will always happen. If Carolina was to offer Gleason for Dd or Eller then maybe you reconsider.

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02-06-2013, 08:35 AM
  #503
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Originally Posted by Kjell Dahlin View Post
UPDATE: Desharnais sent, again, his haters back in their freakiní caves. Donít worry: they will be back and we will be able to laugh at them all over again. On a side note, Lefebvre will need to find himself someone else for his second line center position.
Please stop using the term 'Haters'. It's juvenile, and it is incorrect.

I do not hate DD, in fact I love the kid. I just do not think he is a 1 or 2 C.

This term 'Haters' stems from what the Republicans have done in the US, fomenting hatred and anger with their voter base. It is disgusting.

Mods please clamp down on the use of the term 'Haters'. It adds nothing to our debates, and creates anger.

Guys stop using this term please.

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02-06-2013, 08:41 AM
  #504
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Wonder how long before posters here are going to start calling DD crap and only does well because of Eller or <insert winger>...
Paranoia: My definition: Expecting the malicious behavior of others with no reason to do so.

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02-06-2013, 08:48 AM
  #505
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Originally Posted by Partisan du CH View Post
Before this thread disappears... I think we should remember who the naysayers were, all of which are suddenly silent, because they will be facing this situation by the end of the season :


I'm not silent. I love DD, but I stand by my opinion: He is too small to be an effective 1 or 2 C on a cup winning team.

Big ****ing deal. Wow. Kill me.

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02-06-2013, 08:55 AM
  #506
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Originally Posted by Nicko999 View Post
Listen guys, I understand we all want our players to be big, strong, fast, skilled and so on but the only reason why DD gets unnecessary hate is because he's small and was never drafted (and because he's french).

DD is our best offensive center (will be surpassed by Galchenyuk very soon) whether you like or not and while he gets way too much love at RDS (and in french medias in general), he gets way too much hate on these boards.
He does not get any 'hate' because he is french. He does not get any 'hate' at all. Most of the guys who question him, also love the guy.

We are Habs fans and the kid wears the CH. In fact, I love him more because he is french, but that does not cloud my judgement.

What a ****ed up thing to say we 'hate' him because he is french. What is your deal? Not one guy except you who defends DD has brought this up. It is ridiculous. You are damn close to being removed from this thread.

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02-06-2013, 09:06 AM
  #507
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Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
I'd probably take Krejci but that's more due to the fact the Krejci has put up several seasons at that level whereas Desharnais has only one so could easily regress. But the point remains, you can win a cup with a somewhat small/soft 60pt center as your #1C.
Tell that to Gros Bill.

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02-06-2013, 09:17 AM
  #508
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Too many words, sentences and paragraphs.
That's true. And that's life. We humans do that.

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02-06-2013, 09:20 AM
  #509
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Originally Posted by Fern View Post
We have three good lines. One day, the Plekanec line is the number one, the other it's the Desharnais line and the other it's the Galchenyuk line their is nothing wrong with that and so, we don't have a number one centerman. Is Desharnais a number one center? I don't know but who cares because we are winning because of our balanced offense and he is a key member of that. He is not as complete as Plekanec since Thomas is a way better shooter but he is the best playmaker of that team. And big strong centermen isn't the only key to sucess. Ask the Bruins and the Sharks about Joe Thornton, the perfect fit at the center position.....
Good reasonable post. I want DD to play well this year. I want every Habs player to play well.

I think the real debate here is if he should be a top 2 C in our cup window, 2014 onwards. And I say no.

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02-06-2013, 09:36 AM
  #510
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Originally Posted by bsl View Post
Good reasonable post. I want DD to play well this year. I want every Habs player to play well.

I think the real debate here is if he should be a top 2 C in our cup window, 2014 onwards. And I say no.
same here, and it's not a knock on the kid but, reality is for the next few years Plekanec will remain a 1st or 2nd line C (he just brings too much in every aspect of the game, he's a lock on our top 6) and the possibility of Galchenyuk being the other 1st or 2nd line C within the next two years is very strong, we can already see he has talent no one else has on the Habs forward corp so it's just a matter of time for him...

So with Plekanec abeing a lok and Galchenyuk with talent no one else has on the Habs forward group, where does that leaves DD ? on a 3rd line ? meh... I'd rather have someone with a more complete game at that position, someone who may not put as many points but can use the body if needed while being solid defensively.

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02-06-2013, 09:48 AM
  #511
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Originally Posted by bsl View Post
Good reasonable post. I want DD to play well this year. I want every Habs player to play well.

I think the real debate here is if he should be a top 2 C in our cup window, 2014 onwards. And I say no.
That's fine, and I agree. This goes back to my line of thinking with Eller.
If Plekanec and DD are playing well (60pts+), we shouldn't wait for Galchenyuk to outproduce them before giving him more ice time and duties with better linemates.
It seems that we're doing that with Eller. He has to prove with 3rd and 4th liners that he can somehow play better offensively than the centers getting more offensive opportunities with way more skilled wingers. It's retarded.

Right now, I'd much prefer to see Eller either play center or wing alongside the kids as opposed to with Moen and Armstrong on the 4th line, I mean really.

Next year, I wouldn't want Gally playing with Prust again on a 3rd line.
By that I mean if you want a kid to be an offensive contributor, then put him in an offensive role. If you don't then don't be surprised if he doesn't pan out.

Morale of the story, DD should be moved to the wing imo.

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02-06-2013, 09:59 AM
  #512
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
same here, and it's not a knock on the kid but, reality is for the next few years Plekanec will remain a 1st or 2nd line C (he just brings too much in every aspect of the game, he's a lock on our top 6) and the possibility of Galchenyuk being the other 1st or 2nd line C within the next two years is very strong, we can already see he has talent no one else has on the Habs forward corp so it's just a matter of time for him...

So with Plekanec abeing a lok and Galchenyuk with talent no one else has on the Habs forward group, where does that leaves DD ? on a 3rd line ? meh... I'd rather have someone with a more complete game at that position, someone who may not put as many points but can use the body if needed while being solid defensively.
If you have Plekanec as a guy that can play against top lines, plus a reliable 4th line, you can afford to have an offensive 3rd line, plus DD can ply PP. As long as you don't sign him at 5 mil per year he can be productive despite not being a true #1 or 2 center...look at guys like Carter Briere Seguin on cup winners or finalists.

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02-06-2013, 10:02 AM
  #513
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
If you have Plekanec as a guy that can play against top lines, plus a reliable 4th line, you can afford to have an offensive 3rd line, plus DD can ply PP. As long as you don't sign him at 5 mil per year he can be productive despite not being a true #1 or 2 center...look at guys like Carter Briere Seguin on cup winners or finalists.
You can, but most teams dont have that... for a simple reason, guys capable of 60 or so pts cost around 4 Mil, of not more...

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02-06-2013, 10:04 AM
  #514
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
If you have Plekanec as a guy that can play against top lines, plus a reliable 4th line, you can afford to have an offensive 3rd line, plus DD can ply PP. As long as you don't sign him at 5 mil per year he can be productive despite not being a true #1 or 2 center...look at guys like Carter Briere Seguin on cup winners or finalists.
These guys ARE 5 mil players (TS will be on his next contract, you can bet on it)

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02-06-2013, 10:09 AM
  #515
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
If you have Plekanec as a guy that can play against top lines, plus a reliable 4th line, you can afford to have an offensive 3rd line, plus DD can ply PP. As long as you don't sign him at 5 mil per year he can be productive despite not being a true #1 or 2 center...look at guys like Carter Briere Seguin on cup winners or finalists.
Problem is Briere might be the best playoff performer of our era, Carter is huge and Seguin is one of the best forward in the league... Meanwhile DD is a honest offensive C who can put up 50 points and won't do much more. (Not bashing DD, bashing your choice of players.)

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02-06-2013, 10:23 AM
  #516
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Problem is Briere might be the best playoff performer of our era, Carter is huge and Seguin is one of the best forward in the league... Meanwhile DD is a honest offensive C who can put up 50 points and won't do much more. (Not bashing DD, bashing your choice of players.)
Briere scores a lot in the playoffs. His opponents score on him more. He's a great playoff scorer not a great playoff player.

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02-06-2013, 10:23 AM
  #517
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That's fine, and I agree. This goes back to my line of thinking with Eller.
If Plekanec and DD are playing well (60pts+), we shouldn't wait for Galchenyuk to outproduce them before giving him more ice time and duties with better linemates.
It seems that we're doing that with Eller. He has to prove with 3rd and 4th liners that he can somehow play better offensively than the centers getting more offensive opportunities with way more skilled wingers. It's retarded.

Right now, I'd much prefer to see Eller either play center or wing alongside the kids as opposed to with Moen and Armstrong on the 4th line, I mean really.

Next year, I wouldn't want Gally playing with Prust again on a 3rd line.
By that I mean if you want a kid to be an offensive contributor, then put him in an offensive role. If you don't then don't be surprised if he doesn't pan out.

Morale of the story, DD should be moved to the wing imo.
Only problems so far.....Galchenyuk already outproduce them!!!

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02-06-2013, 10:27 AM
  #518
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
The point is that DD only got 8 more points than Plekanec in spite of being in a vastly and comprehensively superior situation:

- Plekanec was up against a Corsi Rel Qoc of +0.905, DD was up against +0.007.
- Plekanec played with Staubitz, White, Moen, Darche; whereas DD played with Cole and Pacioretty.
- Plekanec had even-strength 308 offensive zone starts, whereas DD had 347 even-strength offensive zone starts, a massive 13% difference.
- Plekanec played 16 fewer minutes on the PP and 17 fewer minutes on ES.

In spite of all these advantages, some of which are massive, DD only had 8 more points, and 1 fewer goals. Ergo, it is clear that Plekanec is the superior offensive player. He's also superior defensively. Galchenyuk will soon be superior offensively. Where does that leave DD?

As some place else than a top-6 center. He could be, for example, a top-6 winger who becomes a top-6 center when there's an injury, that would be quite fine.
Why are you never consistent with your stats? It's annoying.

Don't go into percentages when you want to then go into raw numbers after.

For instance, at one point you go % based and say "A massive 13% increase!".

Then, when you talk about Plekanec's TOI in certain situations I don't hear you saying Desharnais had a massive 1% difference relative to Plekanec is ES/TOI!!!!!

BTW, yah, I calculated it, it's actually 1%. It's just annoying when people do this because it shows you're trying to emphasize your point rather than actually discuss the reality.

FWIW, Plekanec is the superior player. I just dislike when people use selective stats or metrics to prove a point. I would expect better from someone with a background like yours.

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02-06-2013, 10:27 AM
  #519
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Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
Briere scores a lot in the playoffs. His opponents score on him more. He's a great playoff scorer not a great playoff player.
It's more a matter of team play... Last year Philly defense was putrid..

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02-06-2013, 10:40 AM
  #520
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It's not only about DD himself. He is not a bad player.
It's about building the team.....

What do you got down the line on the wings?
Our best prospect are:

Gallagher, 5'9"
Hudon, 5'11"
Collberg, 5'11"
Kristo, 5'11"
Bozon, 6'1"

Not much size there.....except from Bozon, put5ting one of these kids (eventually) on a third line with DD won't work.

We got good prospect on the wings....those prospect will need some size down the middle to be more effective. And DD need big winger to give him time and space.

To build a great team, you have to think 5 steps ahead.

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02-06-2013, 11:16 AM
  #521
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It's more a matter of team play... Last year Philly defense was putrid..
Briere's goals against always stands out relative to his team. He's a liability, center version of MAB.

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02-06-2013, 11:26 AM
  #522
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It's not only about DD himself. He is not a bad player.
It's about building the team.....

What do you got down the line on the wings?
Our best prospect are:

Gallagher, 5'9"
Hudon, 5'11"
Collberg, 5'11"
Kristo, 5'11"
Bozon, 6'1"

Not much size there.....except from Bozon, put5ting one of these kids (eventually) on a third line with DD won't work.

We got good prospect on the wings....those prospect will need some size down the middle to be more effective. And DD need big winger to give him time and space.

To build a great team, you have to think 5 steps ahead.
Gionta (5'7) is doing a fine job with Plekanec (5'10) and did a fine job with Gomez (5'11) in NJ. I don't think there's any evidence that two short forwards can't play well on the same line.

That aside, even if there was a "one dwarf per line" rule, I don't think trading DD because Collberg, Kristo or Hudon might make the NHL one day is a smart bet. DD has already made the NHL. The others haven't yet, and they all have warts of their own. We'll see what happens.

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02-06-2013, 12:15 PM
  #523
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Gionta (5'7) is doing a fine job with Plekanec (5'10) and did a fine job with Gomez (5'11) in NJ. I don't think there's any evidence that two short forwards can't play well on the same line.

That aside, even if there was a "one dwarf per line" rule, I don't think trading DD because Collberg, Kristo or Hudon might make the NHL one day is a smart bet. DD has already made the NHL. The others haven't yet, and they all have warts of their own. We'll see what happens.
Plek is 5'11 200lbs, GET YO FACTS STRAIGHT YO

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02-06-2013, 03:36 PM
  #524
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Why are you never consistent with your stats? It's annoying.

Don't go into percentages when you want to then go into raw numbers after.

For instance, at one point you go % based and say "A massive 13% increase!".

Then, when you talk about Plekanec's TOI in certain situations I don't hear you saying Desharnais had a massive 1% difference relative to Plekanec is ES/TOI!!!!!

BTW, yah, I calculated it, it's actually 1%. It's just annoying when people do this because it shows you're trying to emphasize your point rather than actually discuss the reality.

FWIW, Plekanec is the superior player. I just dislike when people use selective stats or metrics to prove a point. I would expect better from someone with a background like yours.
I am completely consistent with stats here.

13% is massive, 1% is small, but it still matters, do i listed it it. Without that 1% DD scores 59 points and not 60 points.

Without the extra 40 faceoffs DD might score 56 or 57 points, i am nit sure.

That leaves a 4 point margin over plekanec in spite of different corsi and different linemates.

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02-07-2013, 12:39 PM
  #525
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
Why are you never consistent with your stats? It's annoying.

Don't go into percentages when you want to then go into raw numbers after.

For instance, at one point you go % based and say "A massive 13% increase!".

Then, when you talk about Plekanec's TOI in certain situations I don't hear you saying Desharnais had a massive 1% difference relative to Plekanec is ES/TOI!!!!!

BTW, yah, I calculated it, it's actually 1%. It's just annoying when people do this because it shows you're trying to emphasize your point rather than actually discuss the reality.

FWIW, Plekanec is the superior player. I just dislike when people use selective stats or metrics to prove a point. I would expect better from someone with a background like yours.
It's not selective stats...it's plain fact. Last season Plekanec played with significantly worse players (especially after Gionta was injured). He was placed in defensive situations rather than offensive ones almost entirely (defensive zone faceoffs). He played MUCH harder minutes. He played less PP minutes. Yet he only got 8 points less. Yes, Plekanec had a weaker offensive season than his usual, but all of this DD is better offensively or DD will get 90 points is just plain laughable.

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