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David Desharnais Discussion (Slow Start & Contact Talk)

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Old
02-10-2013, 10:36 PM
  #576
Rick16
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Originally Posted by pepperMonkey View Post
Maybe with Patches, but pretty hard to say that when one of the wingers isn't really even there.
True, but Gallagher played a bit with him yesterday and it did not make any difference.

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02-10-2013, 10:37 PM
  #577
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Desharnais is a fine complementary forward. His cap hit is very small. He has produced offense very recently and is still in his prime.

His on-ice ES shooting % last year was an unsustainable 10.39. This year it has swung the other way, a 6.35% that is likely to improve. The Habs have been outshooting the opposition with DD on the ice.

DD is not the kind of forward you build around. He is a complementary forward. Every team has them. They are preferably paid little, to make retaining and acquiring core players easier. Some, like Lupul, get contracts with $5mil cap hits. Desharnais' hit is less than a mil.

Many posters in this thread have suggested DD "has to go." Unfortunately, unless the Habs luck into a rare quality for quantity trade, they are not going to fool a team into trading a tough minutes, large version of DD. If they simply demote or dump him, replacements include Blunden, Leblanc and Dumont. You can delude yourself with lazy "anything would be better" type thoughts, but in reality, none of those players will be nearly as good as DD this season. Maybe he'll "have to go" eventually, but only when his presence stands in the way of clear upgrades or his cost hinders the team's ability to build a better roster.

Arguments for cutting his minutes or changing his linemates or his role may make sense. Arguments for ditching him altogether don't make sense, not at this point anyway.


Last edited by Roulin: 02-10-2013 at 10:43 PM.
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Old
02-10-2013, 10:47 PM
  #578
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Originally Posted by Roulin View Post
Desharnais is a fine complementary forward. His cap hit is very small. He has produced offense very recently and is still in his prime.

His on-ice ES shooting % last year was an unsustainable 10.39. This year it has swung the other way, a 6.35% that is likely to improve. The Habs have been outshooting the opposition with DD on the ice.

DD is not the kind of forward you build around. He is a complementary forward. Every team has them. They are preferably paid little, to make retaining and acquiring core players easier. Some, like Lupul, get contracts with $5mil cap hits. Desharnais' hit is less than a mil.

Many posters in this thread have suggested DD "has to go." Unfortunately, unless the Habs luck into a rare quality for quantity trade, they are not going to fool a team into trading a tough minutes, large version of DD. If they simply demote or dump him, replacements include Blunden, Leblanc and Dumont. You can delude yourself with lazy "anything would be better" type thoughts, but in reality, none of those players will be nearly as good as DD this season. Maybe he'll "have to go" eventually, but only when his presence stand in the way of clear upgrades or his cost hinders the team's ability to build a better roster.

Arguments for cutting his minutes or changing his linemates or his role may make sense. Arguments for ditching him altogether don't make sense, not at this point anyway.
DD does need to go, eventually. He fit JM's system very well but he is struggling in our new one. I think that we should hold onto him until the deadline or the draft, but he does need to be moved for picks or prospects. I agree that anyone thinking the return we get for him will replace him is delusional, but IMO he is in the way of our players' icetime as soon as next year. He is simply not a fit on the team going forward.

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02-10-2013, 11:02 PM
  #579
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True, but Gallagher played a bit with him yesterday and it did not make any difference.
True...but a couple of shifts (how many shifts did they play together?) in a game where the Habs are getting obliterated isn't really a good sample to make a judgement on... And considering the result, nothing in yesterdays game made a lick of difference. We still produced nada regardless of line, player combination, etc. Well, except Patches hand getting an A+ meat rating from Grabovski...

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02-10-2013, 11:07 PM
  #580
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I simply don't see why instead of trading him just yet or moving him to the wing, we can't just make him sit. Eller had to and he's proven himself worthy of that spot. It's complete BS that Therrien hasn't already done it. DD COULD get back to a dominant form, but we are in a short season and I see no reason why one of our best forwards and a natural centerman should not be given a chance after being benched after 1 game. If it doesn't work, revert, but waiting every game for them to click has shown only one thing: they keep getting worse. No excuses, right? How is this policy so open to exceptions. (And I've been a huge fan od DD's.) I want the team to win and right now watching him struggle is so painful + he's hurting us so much on D. Eller is a two way guy like Pleks. I really think we could do some damage if we tried it.

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02-10-2013, 11:20 PM
  #581
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Originally Posted by pepperMonkey View Post
Umm first thing first, I never thought of him as a 1st line C. A 2nd C maybe. And I'm all for benching DD...I'm also up for putting him on the wing. And I'm also up for mixing his line up and moving the other wings off his line to some other line because all three of them are horrible this year.
That said, some people like the comment above make it sound like the main reason they are doing horrible defensively is...DD. Which is rather unfair.
For the 3 goals that DD was on for in yesterdays game, none of them are goals he could have done anything about. Heck, one was frankly Cole's mishandling of his man (Second goal of the night?).
BTW, he won't get any better? Sure he's not that young…but it's rather early to judge his career after only 10 games into his second full season don't you think?
Oh and another thing…EVERY player makes a mistake in 100% of the games they play in. If you are suggesting that instead, DD is making mistakes 90% of the time…well, he never would have gotten past the minors, let alone the NHL. Either way, that comment is just wrong.
First things first.....i meant IT won't get any better than that.

When you say, he wasn't able to do anything agaisnt the Toronto's goal.
I disagree.

DD's job is to create offensive...that's the only thing he's really good at.
He is (and his line) supposed to be in the offensive zone most of the time.
Just to be able to be on the ice for 9 of the 16 goals at 5 on 5....tells me that he spent way too much time in our zone for a offensive center/line.

DD is not THE reason of those lost....but he is one of the top reason.

Why? cause offensively he gives you nothing, not even to spent some time in the offensive zone and creating chances.

You looked at the end every plays before Toronto's goal....But who was in the offensive zone and who lost the control of that puck is also really important.

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02-10-2013, 11:46 PM
  #582
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Originally Posted by habtastic View Post
I simply don't see why instead of trading him just yet or moving him to the wing, we can't just make him sit. Eller had to and he's proven himself worthy of that spot. It's complete BS that Therrien hasn't already done it. DD COULD get back to a dominant form, but we are in a short season and I see no reason why one of our best forwards and a natural centerman should not be given a chance after being benched after 1 game. If it doesn't work, revert, but waiting every game for them to click has shown only one thing: they keep getting worse. No excuses, right? How is this policy so open to exceptions. (And I've been a huge fan od DD's.) I want the team to win and right now watching him struggle is so painful + he's hurting us so much on D. Eller is a two way guy like Pleks. I really think we could do some damage if we tried it.
Gallagher
Gionta
Desharnais

On the wings at the same time could be dangerous. Easy target for the ALL opponents.

The Eller trial between Pacioretty and Cole should have already happened by now.
Therrien called out Eller. Since then, Eller has answered that call.

I really believe that Therrien must try everything in his power to restart DD...and soon, Therrien will have try everything.

Lately that line played a 2-3 games with 18 minutes /game...nothing
Therrien gave them major PP time in the last couple of game...nothing

Now the juggling started. But the problem.....can't juggle with DD.
Cole is the only big winger on the right (Other are Gio and Gallagher)
DD absolutely need time and space...can't play with anyone else on the right than Cole (Amrstong?)

So if nothing work....Eller will take his place and if it works...then DD will become depth as best!

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Old
02-11-2013, 12:00 AM
  #583
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Originally Posted by rockjngo View Post
Someone on TSN radio did mention this...

-Desharnais even with his small statue isn't a fast skater (ie. Martin St. Louis, Brian Gionta, Derek Roy, Patrick Kane, Jeff Skinner) nor is he as skilled as (Daniel Briere, Michael Cammalleri, etc.) with the exception of Roy, all small players I've mentioned play wing.

-Desharnais rely heavily on bigger wingers like Max Pacorietty and Erik Cole to create him room. If either one of them do so, Desharnais cannot create room as he is undersized and not as strong as bigger defensemen in today's NHL.

-Desharnais made it to the NHL base on shear hard work but it can only take you so far.

-Desharnais doesn't have a center of gravity like Crosby or St. Louis so he's not strong on skates and upper body strength.

-Most of his goals come from break out rushes, he hardly get goals from cycling down below.

-If you notice he falls about 20 times every game as he isn't strong enough.

-He cannot win faceoffs and in today's NHL, if you are small and not the fastest skater, you need to have something special playing center like winning faceoffs.

-Brian Gionta told Brendan Gallagher that to make it this long in the league and being small, you gotta be the fastest player and always be one step ahead. Desharnais hasn't done any of that which is why Davy is floating around 10 games out of 11 this season.

-One reason you can blame Desharnais putting up points is Erik Cole and Max Pacorietty struggling to score this season. Cole is near retirement and he doesn't skate hard enough like last year.

-Its better to move Desharnais to the wing or trade him because he's NOT a 3rd-4th line checking center.
Thats exactly what Im saying about DD for awhile...

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Old
02-11-2013, 12:34 AM
  #584
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Originally Posted by thebinne4pres View Post
Just to be able to be on the ice for 9 of the 16 goals at 5 on 5....tells me that he spent way too much time in our zone for a offensive center/line.
DD is not THE reason of those lost....but he is one of the top reason.
Why? cause offensively he gives you nothing, not even to spent some time in the offensive zone and creating chances.
What? Sorry, it may be pause for concern but those stats alone don't tell you squat. All it tells you is that during those plays, DD and his line didn't score...that is all it tells you. Give me stats that says DD spends way too much time in our zone compared to other middling lines in the NHL then I will accept that.

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Originally Posted by thebinne4pres View Post
You looked at the end every plays before Toronto's goal....But who was in the offensive zone and who lost the control of that puck is also really important.
Um...one. Only one of those goals was during a failed attempt at scoring by DD's line.

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Old
02-11-2013, 06:45 AM
  #585
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Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
I think the hardest part is last year there were many here who thought he was a legit #1 center and that we should trade Pleks.
I still remember some fools thinking that DD had better offensive skills than Pleks.


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02-11-2013, 07:35 AM
  #586
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DD biggest problem this year has definitely been his inability to win face offs, if he could start winning offensive zone faceoffs it would definitely go a long way to help him produce.

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02-11-2013, 08:46 AM
  #587
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
I still remember some fools thinking that DD had better offensive skills than Pleks.
He has better offensive "hockey sense"/vision, anyway. But nobody was ever going to suggest he skates or shoots better or anything in the realm of actual physical skills. I still don't get this DD "backlash" stuff... I honestly have never noticed where any segment of Habs fans ever built him up much, or made any especially outlandish claims about his ability, vs. Plekanec or in isolation. Maybe I'm just lucky.

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02-11-2013, 09:37 AM
  #588
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Sure DD isn't the most talented player out there. Sure he's small, not strong, and not particularly fast.

But the Habs have him right now, not anyone else, and he allready has showed he can hold is own in the NHL.

The leader on this line is Cole, nobody else. He was the leader last year, and it must be him this year too. He's the veteran and the only consumate 25-30 goal scorer on this line.

Last year, Cole's rushes to the net by overtaking a d-man were the key. That's what had this line going almost every game. Both Desharnais and Pac benefit from these rushes. This year, Cole isn't doing any rushes to the net. End of story.

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02-11-2013, 09:58 AM
  #589
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Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
He has better offensive "hockey sense"/vision, anyway. But nobody was ever going to suggest he skates or shoots better or anything in the realm of actual physical skills. I still don't get this DD "backlash" stuff... I honestly have never noticed where any segment of Habs fans ever built him up much, or made any especially outlandish claims about his ability, vs. Plekanec or in isolation. Maybe I'm just lucky.
Well there's at least one poster who had mentionned many times before the start of the season that we should trade Plekanec because Desharnais is superior, but it wasn't more than that. One thing for sure is that when a line isn't clicking, none of the players look good and will be bashed. DD is the easiest to bash because he's not very big and isn't physical, so when he's not scoring he's virtually useless. I personally think that MaxPac has been the best out of the three, but that's not saying much as all three have not been very good. Cole has been pretty useless as well.

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02-11-2013, 12:58 PM
  #590
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Originally Posted by pepperMonkey View Post
What? Sorry, it may be pause for concern but those stats alone don't tell you squat. All it tells you is that during those plays, DD and his line didn't score...that is all it tells you. Give me stats that says DD spends way too much time in our zone compared to other middling lines in the NHL then I will accept that.



Um...one. Only one of those goals was during a failed attempt at scoring by DD's line.

Puck possession...doesn't mean anything to you?

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02-11-2013, 01:00 PM
  #591
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Anyway...now DD drop to the third line....less ice time, less powerplay
Fingers crossed that all of this will get him going???

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02-14-2013, 07:07 AM
  #592
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Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
He has better offensive "hockey sense"/vision, anyway. But nobody was ever going to suggest he skates or shoots better or anything in the realm of actual physical skills. I still don't get this DD "backlash" stuff... I honestly have never noticed where any segment of Habs fans ever built him up much, or made any especially outlandish claims about his ability, vs. Plekanec or in isolation. Maybe I'm just lucky.
There were a lot of people stating that DD was better than Plekanec last year, and being amazed that he was 14th among centers for points, a de-contextualized statistic that was pointed out hundreds of times on this forum.

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02-14-2013, 08:05 AM
  #593
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DD biggest problem this year has definitely been his inability to win face offs, if he could start winning offensive zone faceoffs it would definitely go a long way to help him produce.
And if he shot more and harder he would score goals.
And if he won board battles he could help keep the puck in the ozone.
And if he skated faster he would get more assists on 2 on 1 breaks...

Well. He does not do these things either.

This is the NHL man. Perform, or bye bye.

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02-14-2013, 08:08 AM
  #594
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Thats exactly what Im saying about DD for awhile...
#3 or 4 centers are not necessarily "checking centers'. A lot of teams have an offensive guy at #3.

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02-14-2013, 08:09 AM
  #595
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Sure DD isn't the most talented player out there. Sure he's small, not strong, and not particularly fast.

But the Habs have him right now, not anyone else, and he allready has showed he can hold is own in the NHL.

The leader on this line is Cole, nobody else. He was the leader last year, and it must be him this year too. He's the veteran and the only consumate 25-30 goal scorer on this line.

Last year, Cole's rushes to the net by overtaking a d-man were the key. That's what had this line going almost every game. Both Desharnais and Pac benefit from these rushes. This year, Cole isn't doing any rushes to the net. End of story.
Blame it on Cole. Classic. Who you gonna blame next?

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02-14-2013, 08:13 AM
  #596
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DD biggest problem this year has definitely been his inability to win face offs, if he could start winning offensive zone faceoffs it would definitely go a long way to help him produce.
He was 11/19 last game.

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02-14-2013, 08:41 AM
  #597
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He was 11/19 last game.
I wish people would learn more about stats. not you personally. For example, you know how public opinions polls say "accurate within 3.1 percentage points 19 times out of 20?" To get that accuracy for faceoff percentage you need some ~300 faceoffs.

11/19 is as insignificant as 8/19.


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02-14-2013, 09:12 AM
  #598
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02-14-2013, 10:16 AM
  #599
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
I wish people would learn more about stats. not you personally. For example, you know how public opinions polls say "accurate within 3.1 percentage points 19 times out of 20?" To get that accuracy for faceoff percentage you need some ~300 faceoffs.

11/19 is as insignificant as 8/19.
I know...just saying it's a step in the right direction. We can't continue having DD at 36%, it hurts our puck posession too much.

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02-14-2013, 11:13 AM
  #600
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There were a lot of people stating that DD was better than Plekanec last year, and being amazed that he was 14th among centers for points, a de-contextualized statistic that was pointed out hundreds of times on this forum.
You mentioned that “There were a lot of people stating that DD was better than Plekanec last year...” and that’s simply not true. Some posters, like me, do consider that Desharnais has better vision than Plekanec but 95% of the fans considered, and still consider, Plekanec as the better overall player and our clear #1C.

Desharnais is a cap friendly and solid (vision, hard work, high compete level, great attitude...) #2 NHL center. However, if he ever asks for 4M$ + per season, I would be the first to wish him luck... somewhere else!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aceekay View Post
DD biggest problem this year has definitely been his inability to win face offs, if he could start winning offensive zone faceoffs it would definitely go a long way to help him produce.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
He was 11/19 last game.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
I wish people would learn more about stats. not you personally. For example, you know how public opinions polls say "accurate within 3.1 percentage points 19 times out of 20?" To get that accuracy for faceoff percentage you need some ~300 faceoffs.

11/19 is as insignificant as 8/19.
Since last season Desharnais won 764 of his 1551 taken FO; that’s a FO% of 49,3%. That’s not good but it is “acceptable”. For comparison, during the same time frame, Eller’s FO% is 46,7%. That being mentioned, this team sucks in the faceoffs circle and I sure miss Nokelainen our right handed faceoff specialist.

------------------

A quick word regarding our 2011-12 first line: against TB, Cole and Desharnais looked good and Pacioretty was somewhat invisible.

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