HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Toronto Maple Leafs
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Kessel ill-suited as Leafs’ frontman ... Leaf must keep 1st.

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
01-28-2013, 08:14 AM
  #151
Gobias Industries
Registered User
 
Gobias Industries's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,449
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diamond Joe Quimby View Post
How does trading Phil Kessel improve this franchise asset management wise? What exactly do you realistically think can be acquired by trading the 25 year old that can be considered a net gain? I am now intrigued and would like to know your opinion.
Kessel for Mike Richards? Kessel for a great prospective C and a pick?

There are dozens of ways a Kessel trade could end up being lucrative. There are many fans who think he isn't a "franchise" player and he's going to be asking for big money soon, so the time is nigh to trade him if the thought is there.

In my eyes, he'll be overpaid after next year, and I'd prefer the Leafs not be the team to do that. Asset management being what it is, you get value for him now.

I don't know how intriguing that was, it's a pretty simple concept.

Gobias Industries is offline  
Old
01-28-2013, 08:18 AM
  #152
diceman934
Help is on the way.
 
diceman934's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: NHL player factory
Posts: 11,457
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by s dubay View Post
We can continue to build this team without trading away a 30+ /yr goal scorer who is still very young? Can we not? Whats the point of trading him hes not old or even into his prime yet LOL
The point would be to trade him before we have to over pay him to stay, before the balance of power shifts to him. We could hopefully trade him for a package that includes a 1st pick and a player that can play in all 3 zones on the ice who is also young. Kessel has great offensive skills but lacks the ability or the desire to play away from the puck.

He does not make us a better team nor does he provide any intangibles that can be used to help build us into a contender. We can not successful build our team around him, but we can build our team around the potential assets that we can get from trading him.

diceman934 is offline  
Old
01-28-2013, 08:18 AM
  #153
daveleaf
Registered User
 
daveleaf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,181
vCash: 500
There's no point bashing Cox here, he is making a valid point which many fans have thought about at one point or another. He is a fantastic skater with an amazing shot but seems to be that player that needs special team mates. I can only imagine what he could do if we could turn back the clock of time and put him on those Montreal teams from the 70's.

If there comes a deal that makes the team better now and in the future you would have to do it and turn the page on this issue. Kessel will forever be linked to Seguin and Hamilton and if Knight ever turns out to be a decent player it will look even worse. I don't think Phill has the baggage that a Carter was carrying at the time of his trade so I would say we could get a really good young player, a really good prospect and a first round pic.

With Col it would solve many problems for them. removing Duschene would alleviate the issue with cap structure with O'Reily but I would want Duschene + ! Sorry. If you look at the facts and stats alone Kessel has played at a higher level.

Kessel would look great on a lot of teams.

Just my two cents.

daveleaf is offline  
Old
01-28-2013, 08:20 AM
  #154
The Winter Soldier
Team NHL
 
The Winter Soldier's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Country: China
Posts: 44,801
vCash: 500
At this stage I am willing to take a player and a 1st rd pick for Kessel, if Nonis can do better then he did well.

Whatever the fallout, people will always see Kessel in Hamilton, Seguin, and Knight whenever Boston plays, though some will not admit it. And it should bother leafs fans that don't want to rebuild properly by not turning over significant pieces on the roster.

When will some Leafs fans learn I wonder?

The Winter Soldier is offline  
Old
01-28-2013, 08:25 AM
  #155
leafspring*
 
leafspring*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 4,361
vCash: 500
Carlyle putting Kadri in the middle of JVR,and Kessel next game would shut these clowns down from writing this garbage in a short amount of time i'm thinkin.

Bozak can win face-offs on the third line,and that might be just as benificial to getting secondary scoring happening. JVR/Kadri/Kessel needs to be seriously considered for Buffalo tomorrow in this compacted/short season. We need the win to get it on track again.

The power forward net presence,and good all round player in JVR.
The slick play-maker,and good speed Kadri.
The slumping goal scoring winger that needs attention drawn away until he gets goin.

That a good first line,and succeds if Kadri wins 50% of the face-offs i'm thinkin.

leafspring* is offline  
Old
01-28-2013, 08:26 AM
  #156
diceman934
Help is on the way.
 
diceman934's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: NHL player factory
Posts: 11,457
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthrax442 View Post
I really don't think the Leafs will get the same return for Kessel as what we paid, I really don't see any bottom end teams giving us the picks or talent we need, and the teams that will finish in the playoffs hunt will not give us high enough picks.

I really don't see anything wrong with keeping Kessel.
I agree that no one will give us a package that would be equal to what we paid for him......as we over paid. That however is not a valid reason to keep him. I say the teams that will be interested in a trade are teams that believe he could put them over the top. Chicago, Rangers and the Flyers come to mind.

diceman934 is offline  
Old
01-28-2013, 08:27 AM
  #157
Diamond Joe Quimby
A$AP Joffrey
 
Diamond Joe Quimby's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 8,983
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by diceman934 View Post
I asked you to prove your intelligence.....as you accused everyone who does not agree with you as devoid of intelligence.....is this your proof?
My intelligence lies in my ability to maintain a level head in the face of madness. To take every loss or goalless streak with a grain of salt, and not throw myself off a cliff when things are not moving as smoothly as I'd like them to. The ability to evaluate a player independent of his personality, creed, nationality, or style and instead weigh his contributions based on what he produces for a team in relation to the responsibilities asked of him. To not always believe the grass in greener on the other side. To not lay waste to a twenty-five year old because of what was spent to acquire him, instead being wise enough to know that it is no fault of his own. To believe in a person's talent based on past production and reasonable estimates of future contributions, and that a five game stretch is not a sufficient sample size to determine future production over the remaining population of games.

That should suffice, though ultimately, let it be known I owe you nothing; much less an explanation for my comment.

Perhaps now you can answer my question. How does trading Phil Kessel, realistically, result in a net gain for the franchise?

Diamond Joe Quimby is offline  
Old
01-28-2013, 08:28 AM
  #158
Anthrax442
Registered User
 
Anthrax442's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,900
vCash: 855
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diamond Joe Quimby View Post
My intelligence lies in my ability to maintain a level head in the face of madness. To take every loss or goalless streak with a grain of salt, and not throw myself off a cliff when things are not moving as smoothly as I'd like them to. The ability to evaluate a player independent of his personality, creed, nationality, or style and instead weigh his contributions based on what he produces for a team in relation to the responsibilities asked of him. To not always believe the grass in greener on the other side. To not lay waste to a twenty-five year old because of what was spent to acquire him, instead being wise enough to know that it is no fault of his own. To believe in a person's talent based on past production and reasonable estimates of future contributions, and that a five game stretch is not a sufficient sample size to determine future production over the remaining population of games.

That should suffice, though ultimately, let it be known I owe you nothing; much less an explanation for my comment.

Perhaps now you can answer my question. How does trading Phil Kessel, realistically, result in a net gain for the franchise?


Anthrax442 is online now  
Old
01-28-2013, 08:30 AM
  #159
Pilky01
Registered User
 
Pilky01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: GTA
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,898
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
At this stage I am willing to take a player and a 1st rd pick for Kessel, if Nonis can do better then he did well.

Whatever the fallout, people will always see Kessel in Hamilton, Seguin, and Knight whenever Boston plays, though some will not admit it. And it should bother leafs fans that don't want to rebuild properly by not turning over significant pieces on the roster.

When will some Leafs fans learn I wonder?
Well put about fans not wanting to turn over the roster.

So many Leaf fans just fall in love with the players and seem to think that through sheer determination and support, given enough time, the current Leaf roster, whoever it may be comprised of, is the team that can turn it around...if they're just given enough time.

Hockey is a business, and people who fail (like Burke), or who don't fit into long term plans (like Kessel), need to be cut loose.

Kessel wasn't the right fit when the trade was made, and he isn't the right fit now. Keeping Kessel around, considering what could be had in a trade, and considering how much he will command on the open market, would just be throwing good money after bad.

Just because our idiot GM paid a king's ransom for the guy doesn't mean the franchise needs to be saddled with him forever. It is time for the Leafs to cut their losses and move forward with the proper rebuild that should have began four year ago. Thank God Bogers had the balls to make a decision and fire Burke.

Many Leaf fans are too sentimental. They believe as if just supporting the players hard enough will inspire them to glory.

Pilky01 is offline  
Old
01-28-2013, 08:31 AM
  #160
Gobias Industries
Registered User
 
Gobias Industries's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,449
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diamond Joe Quimby View Post
(1)My intelligence lies in my ability to maintain a level head in the face of madness. (2)To take every loss or goalless streak with a grain of salt, and not throw myself off a cliff when things are not moving as smoothly as I'd like them to. (3) The ability to evaluate a player independent of his personality, creed, nationality, or style and instead weigh his contributions based on what he produces for a team in relation to the responsibilities asked of him. (4) To not always believe the grass in greener on the other side. (5) To not lay waste to a twenty-five year old because of what was spent to acquire him, instead being wise enough to know that it is no fault of his own. (6) To believe in a person's talent based on past production and reasonable estimates of future contributions, and that a five game stretch is not a sufficient sample size to determine future production over the remaining population of games.

That should suffice, though ultimately, let it be known I owe you nothing; much less an explanation for my comment.

Perhaps now you can answer my question. How does trading Phil Kessel, realistically, result in a net gain for the franchise?
1 - So we've seen the face of madness for going on four years, when do you stop being level-headed?
2 - No one is suggesting cliff throwing.
3 - So can we fault Kessel in any way or has he delivered on every responsibility asked of him? Would he deliver on an 7.5 mil deal?
4 - Where is the grass less green?
5 - Agreed, no one should be moving Kessel because of how he got here.
6 - No one I've seen is reactively suggesting to move Kessel because of five games, more because of the last three years.

See my post at the top of the page for how it could be a net gain, heck any speculated trade could end up being a net gain depending on who's involved.


Last edited by Gobias Industries: 01-28-2013 at 08:37 AM.
Gobias Industries is offline  
Old
01-28-2013, 08:34 AM
  #161
GordieHoweHatTrick
Registered User
 
GordieHoweHatTrick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Toronto
Posts: 15,683
vCash: 126
I've been a huge critic of Damien Cox but because the team is so ****-poor for so long I'm beginning to feel apathetic to articles such as these. I won't read it because I know Cox pandering to the general public who don't know the details but I won't get bent out of shape about it either. Such is life when you're a fan of the Maple Leafs

GordieHoweHatTrick is offline  
Old
01-28-2013, 08:35 AM
  #162
Anthrax442
Registered User
 
Anthrax442's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,900
vCash: 855
Let's see.. we trade a proven 35-40 goal scorer for a prospect and a pick that we HOPE will turn into a 35-40 goal scorer??

Anthrax442 is online now  
Old
01-28-2013, 08:36 AM
  #163
s dubay
Registered User
 
s dubay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Sask
Country: Canada
Posts: 210
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthrax442 View Post
Let's see.. we trade a proven 35-40 goal scorer for a prospect and a pick that we HOPE will turn into a 35-40 goal scorer??
Oh indeed that sounds like such a great idea. Ill have 2 please !!!

s dubay is offline  
Old
01-28-2013, 08:37 AM
  #164
Pilky01
Registered User
 
Pilky01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: GTA
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,898
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diamond Joe Quimby View Post
My intelligence lies in my ability to maintain a level head in the face of madness. To take every loss or goalless streak with a grain of salt, and not throw myself off a cliff when things are not moving as smoothly as I'd like them to. The ability to evaluate a player independent of his personality, creed, nationality, or style and instead weigh his contributions based on what he produces for a team in relation to the responsibilities asked of him. To not always believe the grass in greener on the other side. To not lay waste to a twenty-five year old because of what was spent to acquire him, instead being wise enough to know that it is no fault of his own. To believe in a person's talent based on past production and reasonable estimates of future contributions, and that a five game stretch is not a sufficient sample size to determine future production over the remaining population of games.

That should suffice, though ultimately, let it be known I owe you nothing; much less an explanation for my comment.

Perhaps now you can answer my question. How does trading Phil Kessel, realistically, result in a net gain for the franchise?
Who is basing their opinions on a five (effectively pre-season) game sample size?

People are suggesting he should be traded precisely because they know he is a good player who would command a high price in free agency and could fetch a decent return in a trade (nothing like what was given up for him, but decent nonetheless).

If people were actually reacting based on these first five games then they would be saying "trade him for a bucket of pucks", no?

Pilky01 is offline  
Old
01-28-2013, 08:38 AM
  #165
Gobias Industries
Registered User
 
Gobias Industries's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,449
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthrax442 View Post
Let's see.. we trade a proven 35-40 goal scorer for a prospect and a pick that we HOPE will turn into a 35-40 goal scorer??
Worked for the Bruins.

Gobias Industries is offline  
Old
01-28-2013, 08:39 AM
  #166
Volcanologist
Used Register
 
Volcanologist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Cosmodrome
Country: Germany
Posts: 21,635
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthrax442 View Post
Let's see.. we trade a proven 35-40 goal scorer for a prospect and a pick that we HOPE will turn into a 35-40 goal scorer??
But there could be anything in that box! It could even be a 40 goal scorer!!

Volcanologist is online now  
Old
01-28-2013, 08:39 AM
  #167
Anthrax442
Registered User
 
Anthrax442's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,900
vCash: 855
Quote:
Originally Posted by s dubay View Post
Oh indeed that sounds like such a great idea. Ill have 2 please !!!
I know that we waited for hockey for a long time, but this is the time to remember that this team had NO proper time to train, NO exhibition games and NO time to get into rhythm. Some players need a bit more time. Snipers are streaky, so 5 games won't tell no tale. We can really start dissecting what is good or bad only after 10-12 games.

Anthrax442 is online now  
Old
01-28-2013, 08:40 AM
  #168
Gobias Industries
Registered User
 
Gobias Industries's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,449
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthrax442 View Post
I know that we waited for hockey for a long time, but this is the time to remember that this team had NO proper time to train, NO exhibition games and NO time to get into rhythm. Some players need a bit more time. Snipers are streaky, so 5 games won't tell no tale. We can really start dissecting what is good or bad only after 10-12 games.
When can we start dissecting the last three seasons?

When did anyone say, "because of the last five games, we should trade Kessel"?

Gobias Industries is offline  
Old
01-28-2013, 08:40 AM
  #169
leafspring*
 
leafspring*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 4,361
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diamond Joe Quimby View Post
My intelligence lies in my ability to maintain a level head in the face of madness. To take every loss or goalless streak with a grain of salt, and not throw myself off a cliff when things are not moving as smoothly as I'd like them to. The ability to evaluate a player independent of his personality, creed, nationality, or style and instead weigh his contributions based on what he produces for a team in relation to the responsibilities asked of him. To not always believe the grass in greener on the other side. To not lay waste to a twenty-five year old because of what was spent to acquire him, instead being wise enough to know that it is no fault of his own. To believe in a person's talent based on past production and reasonable estimates of future contributions, and that a five game stretch is not a sufficient sample size to determine future production over the remaining population of games.

That should suffice, though ultimately, let it be known I owe you nothing; much less an explanation for my comment.

Perhaps now you can answer my question. How does trading Phil Kessel, realistically, result in a net gain for the franchise?
It doesn't(no explanation coming)

leafspring* is offline  
Old
01-28-2013, 08:41 AM
  #170
Anthrax442
Registered User
 
Anthrax442's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,900
vCash: 855
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gobias Industries View Post
Worked for the Bruins.

Anthrax442 is online now  
Old
01-28-2013, 08:41 AM
  #171
Pilky01
Registered User
 
Pilky01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: GTA
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,898
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthrax442 View Post
Let's see.. we trade a proven 35-40 goal scorer for a prospect and a pick that we HOPE will turn into a 35-40 goal scorer??
Boston sure got a nice return when they did it.

Also, I presume you are operating under the assumption that Kessel will not leave during FA and will not command 7-8 million a year...?

Because if Kessel walks during FA, getting a prospect and a pick in return for him would be a pretty damn good return.

Pilky01 is offline  
Old
01-28-2013, 08:42 AM
  #172
InterceptSchenn
Good Evening MrFrost
 
InterceptSchenn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Montreal
Posts: 662
vCash: 500
I don't want to trade Kessel until we get an elite centre to play with him and see his full potential. He is a 4x 30+ goal guy at 25 - not even in his prime. The only time we should be thinking about trading him is if he asks for a trade or he is not resigning with us. I think he will be gone though. Doesn't seem like he fits into Carlyle's system. I'd fire Carlyle before trading Kessel.

InterceptSchenn is offline  
Old
01-28-2013, 08:43 AM
  #173
Morlu
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,014
vCash: 500
Wow, who didn't know we need to keep our 1st....

As for Kessel I would probably trade him. Not because he's not a star but the risk he walks for nothing is too great.

Morlu is offline  
Old
01-28-2013, 08:43 AM
  #174
Diamond Joe Quimby
A$AP Joffrey
 
Diamond Joe Quimby's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 8,983
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gobias Industries View Post
So we've seen the face of madness for going on four years, when do you stop being level-headed? Do you want to pay Kessel 7.5+ after next year?

See my post at the top of the page for how it could be a net gain, heck any speculated trade could end up being a net gain depending on who's involved.
I saw your post. I apologize, the start of tax season here at work makes it hard to jump through the threads as much.

I understand your POV, though we don't necessarily agree. You stuck a nerve with me bringing up Mike Richards, who is one of my favorite players. I would love it if he was a Leaf, however, I believe he does not hold equal value to Phil Kessel. Also, the young stud prospect centre and 1st round draft pick sounds good, but which teams are A. Willing to pay such a price, B. have the prospect centre that would be of value, and C. have a need for a sniping RW?

I'm not against trading Phil Kessel if its for a net gain in assets. But I am strongly against trading him for the sake of trading him, and not getting equal or greater value in return. His perceived value, especially among some media and fans, is far lower than his actual value. This is my main point.

Diamond Joe Quimby is offline  
Old
01-28-2013, 08:43 AM
  #175
Pilky01
Registered User
 
Pilky01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: GTA
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,898
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gobias Industries View Post
When can we start dissecting the last three seasons?

When did anyone say, "because of the last five games, we should trade Kessel"?
That doesn't fit into his narrative.

Of course making a decision based on the last three years makes sense, but that wouldn't support his straw man argument that any discontent is the irrational flailing of a reactionary fan base.

Pilky01 is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:54 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2017 All Rights Reserved.