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Borderline HHOFers

View Poll Results: Who makes it to the HHOF?
P. Kariya 30 42.86%
R. Whitney 5 7.14%
D. Weight 10 14.29%
K. Tkachuk 17 24.29%
T. Fleury 22 31.43%
R. Brind'Amour 19 27.14%
P. Bondra 7 10.00%
M. St. Louis 51 72.86%
E. Lindros 49 70.00%
S. Zubov 16 22.86%
S. Gonchar 5 7.14%
M. Scheidner 2 2.86%
J. Patrick 3 4.29%
E. Desjardins 4 5.71%
C. Joseph 24 34.29%
C. Osgood 6 8.57%
other (please specify) 4 5.71%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 70. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
02-15-2013, 06:31 PM
  #1
Horseradish
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Borderline HHOFers

Who makes it out of these guys?
Why or why not?

Only including my opinion of why they'd make it (primarily), but you could disagree or make another argument as well. Just ask Clarke Gillies or Dick Duff, neither of whom I would have included.

Kariya - Points
*Ray Whitney - Points
Weight - Points/Leadership
Tkachuk - Points/Leadership
Fleury - Adversity/Points
Brind'amour -Leadership/Longevity
Bondra - Goals
*St. Louis - Adversity/Points
Lindros - Points/Incredible Skill
Zubov - Longevity/Points
*Gonchar - Points
Schneider - All-around game
James Patrick - Longevity/Plus-Minus
Desjardins - Points/Leadership/Playoff performance
Curtis Joseph - Longevity/Skill
Osgood - Playoff performance
Other?

EDIT: I pressed "include poll" but for some reason it didn't let me. Could a moderator please add one allowing for multiple votes for as many players as one would like, please? Thanks.

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02-15-2013, 06:36 PM
  #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Horseradish View Post
Who makes it out of these guys?
Why or why not?

Only including my opinion of why they'd make it (primarily), but you could disagree or make another argument as well. Just ask Clarke Gillies or Dick Duff, neither of whom I would have included.

Kariya - Points
*Ray Whitney - Points
Weight - Points/Leadership
Tkachuk - Points/Leadership
Fleury - Adversity/Points
Brind'amour -Leadership/Longevity
Bondra - Goals
*St. Louis - Adversity/Points
Lindros - Points/Incredible Skill
Zubov - Longevity/Points
*Gonchar - Points
Schneider - All-around game
James Patrick - Longevity/Plus-Minus
Desjardins - Points/Leadership/Playoff performance
Curtis Joseph - Longevity/Skill
Osgood - Playoff performance
Other?

EDIT: I pressed "include poll" but for some reason it didn't let me. Could a moderator please add one allowing for multiple votes for as many players as one would like, please? Thanks.
I think the ones highlighted deserve to be in the HHOF. What is borderline about Zubov and Lindros? They should be locks IMO.

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02-15-2013, 06:41 PM
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Evincar
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James Patrick

Any of these guys could make. The Hall has no standards.

Lindros, St.Louis, and Fleury are the only deserving players imo. Im not sold on Kariya but he would the only other guy I would consider.


Last edited by Evincar: 02-15-2013 at 06:50 PM.
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02-15-2013, 06:44 PM
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MastuhNinks
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Lindros, St. Louis, Joseph are probably the only ones I would vote in personally. Then there are a few that are borderline like Zubov and Osgood.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Litework View Post
James Patrick

Any of these guy could make. The Hall has no standards.

Lindros, St.Louis, and Fleury are the only deserving players imo. Im not sold on Kariya but he would the only other guy I would consider.
Why Fleury over Joseph? Relative to their position Joseph had better longevity and a better peak/prime IMO. Fleury was never a top 5 scorer, he was a top 10 scorer only 3 times. Joseph is 4th all-time in wins, 3rd all-time in saves, finished top 3 in saves 7 times throughout his career, lead the NHL in SV% in '92-'93 and was 2nd the year before. You could make a very strong case that Joseph should've won the Vezina in '93 over Belfour, and that the only thing separating them was the fact that Belfour played on the better team.


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02-15-2013, 06:47 PM
  #5
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Zubov should be a lock but no one understands/remembers he was a top 5 NHL defensemen for most of the 2000s. One of the best defensemen in the NHL for almost 15 years, great point totals and multiple Stanley Cups.

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02-15-2013, 06:50 PM
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MSL is a lock.

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02-15-2013, 07:22 PM
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I go Weight, Tkachuk, Fleury, Patrick, Zubov, Joseph, and Osgood.

Weight was a quintessential leader everywhere he went, and would've likely had more points in his prime if he'd had more than a couple of years of Guerin and Smyth, and pretty much nobody else riding shotgun who would've deserved to be a first-liner without him.

Tkachuk- helped to reinvent the power forward role, was a great leader on fairly mediocre teams, and put up a lot of points, also during the dead-puck era.

Fleury- just an explosive player, but also tiny and with a terrible history, both of which he had to overcome, and did so incredibly.

Patrick- a minute-munching d-man who was the rock of every d-corps he played on. One of the best stay-at-home d-men in the history of the game, and put up almost .5 PPG with more than half of his career during dead puck times. Also played a staggering amount of hockey games.

Zubov- wow, just an incredible d-man who was always underrated in my view.

Joseph- just a tiny step below Belfour, albeit playing for mostly inferior teams, especially during his prime.

Osgood- his playoff record speaks for itself. He's still borderline in my opinion, but he's like Fuhr, as I see him. Never a lights out goalie, but always made THE save needed to win.

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02-15-2013, 07:38 PM
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I love MSL but he's not a lock at this point. I think he will finish with 1000 points and that will be enough. He does not seem to be slowing down at all.

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02-15-2013, 07:40 PM
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Added poll.

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02-15-2013, 07:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MastuhNinks View Post
Lindros, St. Louis, Joseph are probably the only ones I would vote in personally. Then there are a few that are borderline like Zubov and Osgood.

Why Fleury over Joseph? Relative to their position Joseph had better longevity and a better peak/prime IMO. Fleury was never a top 5 scorer, he was a top 10 scorer only 3 times. Joseph is 4th all-time in wins, 3rd all-time in saves, finished top 3 in saves 7 times throughout his career, lead the NHL in SV% in '92-'93 and was 2nd the year before. You could make a very strong case that Joseph should've won the Vezina in '93 over Belfour, and that the only thing separating them was the fact that Belfour played on the better team.
Why are you comparing a forward to a goalie? Goalies should have much higher standards. Every goalie in the HOF has a either a Vezina or a Cup. Joseph was never even a 2nd Team All-Star. He never even made a Cup final. Vachon and Barrasso deserve to get in over him. Even Luongo has a better case and his career isnt over it.

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02-15-2013, 07:47 PM
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Originally Posted by LancelotLink View Post
I love MSL but he's not a lock at this point. I think he will finish with 1000 points and that will be enough. He does not seem to be slowing down at all.
MSL should be a lock even if he retired after this season.

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02-15-2013, 07:50 PM
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What do you mean why am I comparing a forward to a goalie? There is not a separate Hall of Fame for goalies, comparing goalies to forwards is necessary when you're talking about who is and isn't going to be in the HHOF.

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02-15-2013, 07:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Faidh ar Rud Eigin View Post
Zubov should be a lock but no one understands/remembers he was a top 5 NHL defensemen for most of the 2000s. One of the best defensemen in the NHL for almost 15 years, great point totals and multiple Stanley Cups.
I remember Zubov being a good defender, but what most don't realize is the number of points he actually scored...

He scored 89 one season, had 8 season with 50 or more points, and many others close to it.

I would say him, Lindros, and Joseph are the most deserving on that list

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02-15-2013, 07:59 PM
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How is MSL even close to being a lock? He's not a ppg player, and are many others ahead of him stats wise.

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02-15-2013, 07:59 PM
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Originally Posted by LancelotLink View Post
I love MSL but he's not a lock at this point. I think he will finish with 1000 points and that will be enough. He does not seem to be slowing down at all.
He'll finish with around 900 career points after this season, that'll have him as a lock already regardless if he reaches 1000, you take his story into context and it's MUCH more impressive.

He started his career at age 25, he's 37 now with nearly 900 career points.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OrangeCrush28 View Post
How is MSL even close to being a lock? He's not a ppg player, and are many others ahead of him stats wise.
Because every forward in the Hall is ppg+ right?

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02-15-2013, 08:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Horseradish View Post
Who makes it out of these guys?
Why or why not?

Only including my opinion of why they'd make it (primarily), but you could disagree or make another argument as well. Just ask Clarke Gillies or Dick Duff, neither of whom I would have included.

Kariya - Points
*Ray Whitney - Points
Weight - Points/Leadership
Tkachuk - Points/Leadership
Fleury - Adversity/Points
Brind'amour -Leadership/Longevity
Bondra - Goals
*St. Louis - Adversity/Points

Lindros - Points/Incredible Skill
Zubov - Longevity/Points
*Gonchar - Points
Schneider - All-around game
James Patrick - Longevity/Plus-Minus
Desjardins - Points/Leadership/Playoff performance
Curtis Joseph - Longevity/Skill
Osgood - Playoff performance
Other?

EDIT: I pressed "include poll" but for some reason it didn't let me. Could a moderator please add one allowing for multiple votes for as many players as one would like, please? Thanks.
No rhyme or reason. I truly dont see the logic of how some players on your list are included why others with similar and even better stats are not. Many of the arguments are weak. Zubov being the easiest example. Zubov was great and I loved his playoff performance but he is in the Hall of very good. If Housley is still waiting how can you mention Zubov. Your argument is longevity and points. The former attributes are exactly what Phil was about.

I liked James Patrick alot too but no way is he a HOF. Not even diehard Ranger fans would agree with you.
Desjardins is also great but not a HOF player.
CUJO, Kariya, and Fluery are the ones on your list I would consider. Even then its hard to include any of the players you mentioned without adding many other borderline guys.

You also eliminate Gillies but want to add Osgood. Gillies helped the NYI to four

straight cups, had a better all around game then Schneider, and was a great leader like Weight, Brind, and Tkachuk.

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02-15-2013, 08:03 PM
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Originally Posted by sky04 View Post
He'll finish with around 900 career points after this season, that'll have him as a lock already regardless if he reaches 1000, you take his story into context and it's MUCH more impressive.

He started his career at age 25, he's 37 now with nearly 900 career points.



Because every forward in the Hall is ppg+ right?

How does 900 points make you a lock for the HHOF? There are a number of players with 1000 that aren't in, even if he did start his career late he has 871 points on 944 games.... Those aren't exactly mind blowing numbers... There are many guys with better numbers

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02-15-2013, 08:05 PM
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Originally Posted by MastuhNinks View Post
What do you mean why am I comparing a forward to a goalie? There is not a separate Hall of Fame for goalies, comparing goalies to forwards is necessary when you're talking about who is and isn't going to be in the HHOF.
Why dont you compare Joseph to the other goalies who are in the Hall? Wouldnt that make more sense? When your best case is "Joseph should get in because Dick Duff and Clark Gilles got in" then you know he isnt a worthy candidate. The HOF has been very strict on Goalie inductions, just look at who has been inducted in the last 20-30 years.

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02-15-2013, 08:05 PM
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Originally Posted by OrangeCrush28 View Post
How does 900 points make you a lock for the HHOF? There are a number of players with 1000 that aren't in, even if he did start his career late he has 871 points on 944 games.... Those aren't exactly mind blowing numbers... There are many guys with better numbers
Right it's all about the numbers I forgot!!

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02-15-2013, 08:07 PM
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Mogilny
Turgeon
Housley

three names to ponder and all with better stats

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02-15-2013, 08:07 PM
  #21
Evincar
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Originally Posted by OrangeCrush28 View Post
How does 900 points make you a lock for the HHOF? There are a number of players with 1000 that aren't in, even if he did start his career late he has 871 points on 944 games.... Those aren't exactly mind blowing numbers... There are many guys with better numbers
Because looking at career totals is a good way to decide whether someone should be in the HOF.

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02-15-2013, 08:08 PM
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Jack Donaghy
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Originally Posted by sky04 View Post
He'll finish with around 900 career points after this season, that'll have him as a lock already regardless if he reaches 1000, you take his story into context and it's MUCH more impressive.

He started his career at age 25, he's 37 now with nearly 900 career points.



Because every forward in the Hall is ppg+ right?
IMO he's close but if he retired today I'm not sure if he's in. That's how I define a lock for most players. I do think he will get in because I bet he reaches 1,000. I agree points are not everything but it will certainly help.

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02-15-2013, 08:09 PM
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Originally Posted by BROOKLYnKNIGHTS View Post
Mogilny
Turgeon
Housley

three names to ponder and all with better stats
None of those guys should make it in...

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02-15-2013, 08:09 PM
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Right it's all about the numbers I forgot!!
It makes up a lot of it? What has he done to Make him head above the list of other players I could name that aren't in that have had better careers.

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02-15-2013, 08:11 PM
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Originally Posted by LancelotLink View Post
IMO he's close but if he retired today I'm not sure if he's in. That's how I define a lock for most players. I do think he will get in because I bet he reaches 1,000. I agree points are not everything but it will certainly help.

That's fine, I define lock as someone who WILL eventually get into the Hall, whether it's first ballot 3 years from now or one of the 3 years after that. IMO he'll get in regardless, feel good story, Cup, longevity of prime, played multiple times internationally, high peak, loads of hardware and no dis-imaging off ice antics.

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