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Roster/trade/etc discussion part IV

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02-17-2013, 01:54 PM
  #726
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Originally Posted by kenabnrmal View Post
I think this is where fans view of player values are most disjointed from coaches and managers. Defensemen.

No, you absolutely do not trade Sbisa because of 14 sub-par games, he's a long-term option. A guy that has good size, uses his body, and can move the puck. Is he doing those things exceedingly well right now? Maybe not (though I don't see how he's been as bad as others do). But, you do not trade guys like that unless you're getting high value back. You cannot have enough NHL defensemen.

Is RoR high value? I don't see it, personally. I haven't watched a ton of Avs games, so I could be wrong. Numbers and pedigree-wise, I'm not exactly sure why he's getting the hype he is. I'd like to have him behind Getzlaf, but not at the price of Sbisa+. Prospect and a pick, fine. Nothing more.

And no, Vatanen is not on the verge of outplaying Fowler. You always take a guy with experience, given similar skill sets, unless the upside is obscenely slanted.
RoR will cost us probably Bonino, Koivu, some type of roster player plus Etem or Lindholm or Vatanen. And that's just for RFA rights. That would be idiotic move if BM made it.

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02-17-2013, 01:54 PM
  #727
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Originally Posted by Ducksgo View Post
Yah I see your logic there. I just see amazing talent being wasted in Norfolk that's all. It's just that simple. I mean how many more pts can Vatanen score in the AHL for a roster spot on the ducks team?
i donno. maybe he can work on his defense and positioning.. after all he is a DEFENSEman..

i dont want vatanen to turn into the next MAB who only plays on the PP and is awful defensively..

not to mention lindholm hasn't played a single NHL level, has ONLY played 17 games in the AHL. honestly, i would not mind if BOTH of them spent another season in the AHL next year.

although i do think 1 of them will be up with the ducks next year.

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02-17-2013, 01:55 PM
  #728
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When Fowler returns, I expect there to be competition for the spot. Boudreau will probably take the opportunity to rest Lydman, as needed, but also I'd hope Sbisa and Allen will be put on notice that, if they don't play well, they might be sitting the next game.

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02-17-2013, 01:57 PM
  #729
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Originally Posted by Eddie Shack View Post
I think the change of scenery may well have helped Lovejoy. And I hope he continues to do well for us. But it still doesn't change a word of what I said. He's at the top of his game (with no more upside) and Sbisa's at the bottom of his (with plenty of upside).
I'm not arguing with what you said. Lovejoy gives Anaheim options, when Fowler returns. That's all I want from him.

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02-17-2013, 01:57 PM
  #730
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Originally Posted by kenabnrmal View Post
I think this is where fans view of player values are most disjointed from coaches and managers. Defensemen.

No, you absolutely do not trade Sbisa because of 14 sub-par games, he's a long-term option. A guy that has good size, uses his body, and can move the puck. Is he doing those things exceedingly well right now? Maybe not (though I don't see how he's been as bad as others do). But, you do not trade guys like that unless you're getting high value back. You cannot have enough NHL defensemen.

Is RoR high value? I don't see it, personally. I haven't watched a ton of Avs games, so I could be wrong. Numbers and pedigree-wise, I'm not exactly sure why he's getting the hype he is. I'd like to have him behind Getzlaf, but not at the price of Sbisa+. Prospect and a pick, fine. Nothing more.

And no, Vatanen is not on the verge of outplaying Fowler. You always take a guy with experience, given similar skill sets, unless the upside is obscenely slanted.
RoR is apparently on the verge of an intangible-splosion a la Toews. Personally I think you'd have to be an idiot to give a long-term high dollar deal to a guy like him, with only one decent season on his resume. Which says to me that Colorado's GM is not an idiot.

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02-17-2013, 02:07 PM
  #731
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Originally Posted by Sojourn View Post
I'm not arguing with what you said. Lovejoy gives Anaheim options, when Fowler returns. That's all I want from him.
I knew you weren't. I didn't mean to sound like I was arguing with you either. Just saying regardless of reason Lovejoy would never be any more than he currently is.

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02-17-2013, 02:07 PM
  #732
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Originally Posted by Sojourn View Post
How many NHL ready defensemen do you think we have?
Lindholm is close from what I have read. And Vatanen is also ready in my eyes as well. Jordan Hendry is also a young buck doing well in Norfolk. We have plenty of solid D prospects. There was no need for the Lovejoy acquisition. I know it's a short season, but we have a lot of talent just being wasted in Norfolk.

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02-17-2013, 02:10 PM
  #733
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Originally Posted by Ducksgo View Post
Lindholm is close from what I have read. And Vatanen is also ready in my eyes as well. Jordan Hendry is also a young buck doing well in Norfolk. We have plenty of solid D prospects. There was no need for the Lovejoy acquisition. I know it's a short season, but we have a lot of talent just being wasted in Norfolk.
OK, now you aren't making sense. Lovejoy has been great for us. Better than Vatanen and Hendry for sure, and probably better than Sbisa and Lydman

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02-17-2013, 02:10 PM
  #734
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Originally Posted by Ducksgo View Post
Lindholm is close from what I have read. And Vatanen is also ready in my eyes as well. Jordan Hendry is also a young buck doing well in Norfolk. We have plenty of solid D prospects. There was no need for the Lovejoy acquisition. I know it's a short season, but we have a lot of talent just being wasted in Norfolk.
Maybe BM and BB know a little bit more about our needs than we at HF do?

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02-17-2013, 02:10 PM
  #735
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Originally Posted by Eddie Shack View Post
I knew you weren't. I didn't mean to sound like I was arguing with you either. Just saying regardless of reason Lovejoy would never be any more than he currently is.
Oh yeah, I agree. I'm not sure that we should be expecting more from him either. When you give up a 5th, I think you know what kind of expectations you should have. I don't see Lovejoy as anything more than a 6th/7th defenseman. Good mobility, but needs to play within his game.

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02-17-2013, 02:11 PM
  #736
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Hendry and being wasted in the AHL. Just when I thought I saw everything.

I don't see how Vatanen is ready for the NHL when he was literally getting manhandled and bouncing off other teams forwards. Guy has talent, but he's not ready yet.

And Lindholm, he's not going to be playing NHL this season with his concussion issues.

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02-17-2013, 02:12 PM
  #737
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The talent is not being wasted. We've had defensemen injured and defensemen struggle coming back from the lockout. We have a compressed schedule. If there ever was a season where "you can never have too much depth" was true, this is the season.

I'm not sure that "wasting talent" is even possible. You'd prefer they were skating for other teams? Who is Lovejoy taking ice time from?

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02-17-2013, 02:13 PM
  #738
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Originally Posted by Ducksgo View Post
Lindholm is close from what I have read. And Vatanen is also ready in my eyes as well. Jordan Hendry is also a young buck doing well in Norfolk. We have plenty of solid D prospects. There was no need for the Lovejoy acquisition. I know it's a short season, but we have a lot of talent just being wasted in Norfolk.
Lindholm hasn't played a single game in the NHL. Even when he is healthy, there is no guarantee he's ready for NHL play. As for Vatanen, we just saw him in the NHL. The Ducks put him into an absolutely ideal situation, with sheltered minutes, and offensive opportunities, and he wasn't able to take advantage of it.

Being good enough in the AHL doesn't automatically make you good enough for the NHL.

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02-17-2013, 02:17 PM
  #739
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Originally Posted by AngelDuck View Post
OK, now you aren't making sense. Lovejoy has been great for us. Better than Vatanen and Hendry for sure, and probably better than Sbisa and Lydman
Maybe so? But we wouldn't know what either Lindholm or Vatanen or Hendry would do given the time Lovejoy has been receiving. This goes back to my argument of not giving enough time to our rookies.

Example? Palmeiri 14 gp 4g 2a and playing amazing hockey for us. All I want is our rookies to get a bigger chance to prove themselves. I feel they really "haven't" gotten that shot yet.

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02-17-2013, 02:19 PM
  #740
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Originally Posted by Ducksgo View Post
Maybe so? But we wouldn't know what either Lindholm or Vatanen or Hendry would do given the time Lovejoy has been receiving. This goes back to my argument of not giving enough time to our rookies.

Example? Palmeiri 14 gp 4g 2a and playing amazing hockey for us. All I want is our rookies to get a bigger chance to prove themselves. I feel they really "haven't" gotten that shot yet.
Actually, we have a pretty good idea what Vatanen and Hendry would do... we just saw it. Lovejoy has been better.

Palmieri hasn't been amazing. He's been good, with some unimpressive games thrown in. There is a reason DVM said Palmieri seemed to be going through the motions last night(okay, so he said it just before Palmieri made a great play... but his point was valid).

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02-17-2013, 02:20 PM
  #741
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Originally Posted by Ducksgo View Post
Maybe so? But we wouldn't know what either Lindholm or Vatanen or Hendry would do given the time Lovejoy has been receiving. This goes back to my argument of not giving enough time to our rookies.
Lindholm is still hurt, you boob. Vatanen and Hendry both got extended looks and didn't win a spot.

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02-17-2013, 02:35 PM
  #742
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Originally Posted by Damn Skippy View Post
Lindholm is still hurt, you boob. Vatanen and Hendry both got extended looks and didn't win a spot.
I agree, there is a reason we traded for a defensemen, none of them earned a full time spot. When Fowler comes back , I expect to see everyone but Fowler and Sbisa (due to their age) to take days off now and then. We are lucky to be this deep on the blue line.

Also, most D-men take a few years to become NHL quality players. Very few are good enough and physically able to handle prior to age 20, and most continue to get better up til 23-24. Lindholm, even if he was healthy was probably going to play in the AHL this year barring an injury.

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02-17-2013, 02:44 PM
  #743
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Originally Posted by Damn Skippy View Post
Lindholm is still hurt, you boob. Vatanen and Hendry both got extended looks and didn't win a spot.
Well good thing Lovejoy is on a one year. Cause Vatanen or Lindholm or Hendry will take the spot next season. No reason at all to keep these players down in the AHL. It's just that simple. I still think the Lovejoy acquisition was a mistake. And don't really care about the critics

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02-17-2013, 02:45 PM
  #744
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Originally Posted by Ducksgo View Post
Well good thing Lovejoy is on a one year. Cause Vatanen or Lindholm or Hendry will take the spot next season. No reason at all to keep these players down in the AHL. It's just that simple. I still think the Lovejoy acquisition was a mistake. And don't really care about the critics
You should care about the play on the ice.

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02-17-2013, 02:47 PM
  #745
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Originally Posted by Ducksgo View Post
Well good thing Lovejoy is on a one year. Cause Vatanen or Lindholm or Hendry will take the spot next season. No reason at all to keep these players down in the AHL. It's just that simple. I still think the Lovejoy acquisition was a mistake. And don't really care about the critics
No, it isn't that simple. If both Lindholm and Vatanen are still not good enough to take a spot next season, then Lovejoy will be back, or some other 6/7 defenseman will, and you'll be scratching your head again. The reason they're in the AHL is because they're not good enough to be anywhere else.

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02-17-2013, 02:49 PM
  #746
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Originally Posted by OCSportsfan View Post
I agree, there is a reason we traded for a defensemen, none of them earned a full time spot. When Fowler comes back , I expect to see everyone but Fowler and Sbisa (due to their age) to take days off now and then. We are lucky to be this deep on the blue line.

Also, most D-men take a few years to become NHL quality players. Very few are good enough and physically able to handle prior to age 20, and most continue to get better up til 23-24. Lindholm, even if he was healthy was probably going to play in the AHL this year barring an injury.
Well fowler earned the spot right off the bat of his draft year. I think Lindholm would of done the same if he participated in the World Juniors and had a good camp. It sucks he got injured though. Our scouting was dead on with Lindholm though. We passed on a lot of star talent for em.

But yah I feel Lindholm would of made the roster if he wasn't injured.

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02-17-2013, 02:52 PM
  #747
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Well fowler earned the spot right off the bat of his draft year. I think Lindholm would of done the same if he participated in the World Juniors and had a good camp. It sucks he got injured though. Our scouting was dead on with Lindholm though. We passed on a lot of star talent Forsberg, Grigorenko (starting) on MTL btw.

But yah I feel Lindholm would of made the roster if he wasn't injured.
Anaheim had a massive gaping hole on their defense because Sbisa had been expected to fill a top 4 role and he fell far short. You can bet that contributed to Fowler earning his spot. Furthermore, Fowler was able to show that, while physically he really wasn't quite there, his sheer talent level more than made up for that.

There is just no telling if Lindholm could have earned a spot. We do know if Vatanen or Hendry could have earned one though.

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02-17-2013, 02:54 PM
  #748
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Originally Posted by Sojourn View Post
Anaheim had a massive gaping hole on their defense because Sbisa had been expected to fill a top 4 role and he fell far short. You can bet that contributed to Fowler earning his spot. Furthermore, Fowler was able to show that, while physically he really wasn't quite there, his sheer talent level more than made up for that.

There is just no telling if Lindholm could have earned a spot. We do know if Vatanen or Hendry could have earned one though.
And didn't. But no, Ducksgo is at a loss to find a reason why Jordan freakin Hendry is in the AHL.

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02-17-2013, 02:55 PM
  #749
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And didn't. But no, Ducksgo is at a loss to find a reason why Jordan freakin Hendry is in the AHL.
I think it's the shiny new toy syndrome. The young, and their perceived upside, look prettier than the grizzled vets.

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02-17-2013, 04:09 PM
  #750
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I think it's the shiny new toy syndrome. The young, and their perceived upside, look prettier than the grizzled vets.
Everyone forgets, Sbisa played in the NHL his first year drafted (39 games), like Fowler. I am sure if we could go back, the Philly fans would have been talking about Sbisa like we are now with our young players. Huge upside, playing better than the current crop of veterans, give him a chance, etc.

A couple of questions.

Do you think Sbisa was as good as Vatanen and Lindholm the first year in the league - I think he was at least equal, he did play 39 games that year for Philly. We still sent him to the AHL the following year for the whole year minus 8 games, to get better.


Many think Sbisa should be benched (I still cant comprenhend that one) for one of these rookies. Well I know Sbisa has improved his game greatly since that first year with us, so now are you saying these rookies are better then a guy who has over 200 NHL games at age 23.

I for one think Fowler would have been better to wait a year before the NHL, but unfortunately he is just too good, and was dominating the Juniors.

Lets be happy that we have both of those players and look forward to them playing in the NHL in a couple of years as our current NHL players contracts run out.

I dont think Lydman will be resigned, so I am sure one of them will get first crack next year. My guess is Lindholm.

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