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Old
02-08-2013, 09:38 AM
  #151
alphafox
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Well, here's the confirmation that he will never be moved

"@Fiddy14: @Aportzline Do you think Umberger could be had via trade? #Pens #CBJ" / Yes. Most certainly. Big contract, though."


Last edited by alphafox: 02-08-2013 at 09:55 AM.
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02-08-2013, 09:48 AM
  #152
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alphafox View Post
Well, here's the confirmation that he will never be moved:

"@Fiddy14: @Aportzline Do you think Umberger could be had via trade? #Pens #CBJ" / Yes. Most certainly. Big contract, though."
So we needed Porty to say what we already knew? I don't see how this confirms anything.

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02-08-2013, 10:35 AM
  #153
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Originally Posted by EDM View Post
Xoggz22, I think you are right no. It is why I said that if RJ was traded to the Pens of back to the Flyers (or the Bruins or Rangers for that matter), he would return to be a solid 15-20 goal guy. In Academy Awards terms, he is a supporting actor, not a lead actor. On this team at this point in time, however, there is no lead actors and so RJ is woefully out of place. Even he knows it and it shows in his game. He is trying to do things he really cannot do on a consistent basis.
That is probably true, but why is he still the only 1 turning the puck over so much and looking so bad? Shouldn't all the others who are "out of place" be doing the same?

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02-08-2013, 11:55 AM
  #154
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Originally Posted by SpinTheBlackCircle View Post
Everything said here is all well and good, but what has to be changed is that RJ is leading ALL CBJ forwards in average ice time per game.

That's stunning, bewildering and needs to change.
I just looked this up. Wow. And it's not even close too. Nearly a full minute between him and the next highest guy, Dubinsky.

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02-08-2013, 12:49 PM
  #155
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Originally Posted by Samkow View Post
I just looked this up. Wow. And it's not even close too. Nearly a full minute between him and the next highest guy, Dubinsky.
Three possibilities:

1. trying like heck to get him in game shape
2. with the amount of energy he (doesn't) expend he doesn't get as tired
3. Howson told Richards to lower the cost per minute of Umberger's deal

3 's

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02-08-2013, 12:51 PM
  #156
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Originally Posted by Samkow View Post
I just looked this up. Wow. And it's not even close too. Nearly a full minute between him and the next highest guy, Dubinsky.
I will posit this possible explanation. That those two guys in many respects (are supposed to, anyway) typify/exemplify the kind of play that is needed from this team if it to be successful. So a plan was built with that and with them in mind, and we have yet to see a deviation. I believe the idea was to put things in place and stick with them. However, the farming of Johansen, to me, signaled the first change in course.

It will be interesting to monitor this moving forward.

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02-08-2013, 03:16 PM
  #157
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The Umberger situation reminds me very much of the Gomez situation in Montreal.

Gomez had an OK first year in Montreal (59 points) and then dramatically fell off his second year (38 points). In his third year, the bottom fell out completely. He had 11 points in 39 games before an injury shut him down for the season.

The Canadiens continued to place Gomez in positions to succeed in terms of ice time. He got big minutes, plenty of PP time and had decent linemates until the end. The feeling which was publicly expressed by the coach-Jacques Martin- and the GM-Pierre Gauthier-was that ultimately Gomez would emerge from his funk. Gomez was only 30 years old in his second season with Montreal and didn't have any injury which was holding him back, so he didn't fit the profile of being "finished". The team had a ton of money invested in him, so with the combination of factors, the rationale behind continually playing him with big minutes and in key situations was completely understandable. Until the 3rd year, when it became obvious beyond a reasonable point that something had structurally changed about Gomez. At that point it was the proverbial "beating of the dead horse".

Umberger was also 30 when his production dropped dratically (from 57 to 40 points). This year, is well, dreadful. Like Gomez, Umberger's game has changed dramatically. Gomez went from a slick playmaker who could carry the puck in no time flat from the defensive zone into the offensive zone into a predictable, perimeter player with very little creativity in his game. Umberger has gone from an energetic player who created many of his opportunities from the traffic areas and enthusiastically battled for pucks to a lethargic and less aggressive player. He doesn't have anywhere near the slot presence he used to have. Not even close.

The Jackets are hoping that my analysis is dead wrong and I don't blame them one bit. If I were the coach or GM, I certainly would have been giving Umberger every opportunity to reestablish himself. He has had plenty of decent history, is relatively young and has a ton of $$ coming his way. I think, however, that they are now being counterproductive in doing so. He's not worthy of top line minutes and PP time. He needs to earn these minutes, not be given them because of $$ committed or past history. He's also taking minutes from players who need more ice time to gel in their new environment. The overuse of Umberger is helping no one, Umberger included.

In my final analysis, RJ Umberger is a player who just "lost it" at an early age. The money may have contributed to his demise, but there is no simple formula for determining the exact age at which a player loses his effectiveness. When athletes go permanently sour, it often times happens quickly. The notion of Umberger returning to the 20+ goal/50-55 point range does not seem reasonable to me. Once the Jeanie leaves the bottle it's very difficult to recapture her.

I would be hard-pressed to think of a GM who would take him right now. Perhaps the new CBA stipulation of the original club being able to pay 50% of a traded player's salary could tilt the equation, but I doubt it. The Gomez parallel is too recent and the declining salary cap doesn't help things one bit.


Last edited by Cyclones Rock: 02-08-2013 at 03:32 PM.
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Old
02-08-2013, 03:19 PM
  #158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alphafox View Post
Well, here's the confirmation that he will never be moved

"@Fiddy14: @Aportzline Do you think Umberger could be had via trade? #Pens #CBJ" / Yes. Most certainly. Big contract, though."
The Penguins have one of the premier offenses in the league. Of what use would Umberger be to them? How would he improve their team? Do they even have the cap room for next season? The only reason which I would see is because he's from the area and that is not a valid reason to take on $18m over the next four years for a guy whose production has plummeted.

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02-08-2013, 04:26 PM
  #159
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Originally Posted by EDM View Post
I agree he is now playing in a very lazy manner. That is my point. He needs to be with a playoff potential team to get his juices going. He needs to play very hard to be effective. And just does not do that with this team anymore. Put him on the Pens third line with a chance at the Cup and I think there is a very good chance you would see the "good" Umberger. But he will never do anything here because he has no interest in being on a "rebuilding" team.
And I wonder if he will be villified for this, if proven true, ala Nash.

Where are the Umby for Captain crew members?

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02-08-2013, 04:28 PM
  #160
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And I wonder if he will be villified for this, if proven true, ala Nash.
From what I can tell he already is with or without a trade demand.

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02-08-2013, 11:04 PM
  #161
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Umby is quite the scape goat around here. I must not be watching the same guy on the ice. Umberger hasn't been getting the goals or assist...but he seems to be on the ice for every power play goal we get.

Players have slumps. His career is far from over.. Just because a player who is 30 has a slump doesn't mean he should hang up the skates!

Fans needs to be rooting for him. He isn't going anywhere - and if we can't get his production back.. We aren't going anywhere either.. He's set Letestu, Dorse, and Dubinsky up for golden opportunities which none have capitalized.

We need Umby to get the gorilla off of his back. It's obvious that without him producing, we are going to have trouble finding it elsewhere on this roster.

Onwards!!

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02-10-2013, 07:17 AM
  #162
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So NHL coaches don't sit veterans? Hmm, I seem to remember a post in another thread where I was lectured to by a certain poster about how it is taboo for a veteran to watch a game from the press box.

Quote:
Suffice it to say, being comparable to the Capitals in any way right now is cause for alarm, and Lindy Ruff has chosen to react. The Sabres' coach has banished Tyler Myers -- who has hardly been an impact player to start the year -- to the press box for Saturday's date with the New York Islanders
Quote:
Thus, if Ruff can force number one play out of his number one defenceman (at least financially -- again, twelve million), it will be difficult to question his decision in hindsight. And, speaking of hindsight, as mentioned, he pulled the same stunt last season and it worked.

Myers was scratched 16 games into the 2011-12 season. In his first game back, he scored two goals and was named the game's second star in a 5-3 loss to the New Jersey Devils
http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nhl-puck-daddy/

Granted, something like this is not the norm, but desperate times call for desperate measures.

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02-10-2013, 08:46 AM
  #163
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Does Myers really count as a vet? He has lots to learn.

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02-10-2013, 10:09 AM
  #164
Dr. Fire
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Does Myers really count as a vet? He has lots to learn.
Point taken, but he is still supposed to be one of their best defensemen.

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02-10-2013, 11:57 AM
  #165
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Alex Goligoski got benched against Edmonton last week. He has been in the league almost as long as RJ. He also was traded for James Neal and has the same $4.6 cap hit. That didn't prevent Glen Gulutzan from benching him for a game last week. He got two assists in his next game against Anaheim.

I don't think anyone is calling on a permanent benching of RJ. But RJ isn't doing the other little things well either and he has not been any kind of a physical presence. More minutes doesn't mean better production. A day in the press box wouldn't hurt.

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02-10-2013, 06:24 PM
  #166
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Originally Posted by Dr. Fire View Post
So NHL coaches don't sit veterans? Hmm, I seem to remember a post in another thread where I was lectured to by a certain poster about how it is taboo for a veteran to watch a game from the press box.
What was said was, is that he hasn't has his ice time reduced, his role, or benched for a period (Brassard anyone?). It was never said that veterans aren't scratched. It was said that he has to be careful how he proceeds, nothing more nothing less.

It is really hard to have real conversations around here well people misrepresent what was said.

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02-10-2013, 08:45 PM
  #167
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Well, he certainly had a nice-looking goal today...

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02-10-2013, 08:50 PM
  #168
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Originally Posted by Viqsi View Post
Well, he certainly had a nice-looking goal today...
It's like no one would have noticed it without your message

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02-10-2013, 08:59 PM
  #169
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OMG he's obviously back to being teh offensive powerhouse we all knew he was...4 shots, 1 goal!!! YAAAAAAAAAAY
#Nearly5Million

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02-10-2013, 09:33 PM
  #170
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Originally Posted by bizzz View Post
It's like no one would have noticed it without your message
Well, seeing as though folks have spent the past month or so closing their eyes, putting their hands over their ears and going "LA LA LA I CANT HEAR YOU HE SUCKS" anytime Umby does anything that makes him look good or even competent, I figured explicit notification might be necessary.

Dunno if that'll "open the floodgates" or anything like that, but it was nice to finally see him get rewarded for his efforts.

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02-10-2013, 10:10 PM
  #171
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Viqsi View Post
Well, seeing as though folks have spent the past month or so closing their eyes, putting their hands over their ears and going "LA LA LA I CANT HEAR YOU HE SUCKS" anytime Umby does anything that makes him look good or even competent, I figured explicit notification might be necessary.

Dunno if that'll "open the floodgates" or anything like that, but it was nice to finally see him get rewarded for his efforts.
Speaking of putting ones hands over ones ears/eyes, I am looking around for the posts where you acknowledge he has been really bad at times and sub-par quite often.



I haven't spent much energy weighing in on the RJ situation. He hasn't looked good. I don't know whether he should be benched, traded ro allowed to work through it. But what I do know is what I saw from his teammates after he scored tonight. They were exhuberant, happier for him than if they'd scored themselves. For what it's worth, he appears to be a figure guys rally around/gravitate to. That likely explains his continued usage by the coaching staff. Sometimes "messages" aren't worth sending.

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02-10-2013, 10:24 PM
  #172
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Originally Posted by Viqsi View Post
Well, seeing as though folks have spent the past month or so closing their eyes, putting their hands over their ears and going "LA LA LA I CANT HEAR YOU HE SUCKS" anytime Umby does anything that makes him look good or even competent, I figured explicit notification might be necessary.

Dunno if that'll "open the floodgates" or anything like that, but it was nice to finally see him get rewarded for his efforts.
Let's hope getting that monkey on his back causes him to play with the reckless abandon I'm used to seeing.

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02-10-2013, 10:32 PM
  #173
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Let's hope getting that monkey on his back causes him to play with the reckless abandon I'm used to seeing.
So you're saying he's getting back on the monkey?

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02-10-2013, 11:05 PM
  #174
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Still putting in minimal effort. Still the de facto leader of a team that has always stunk during his tenure.

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02-10-2013, 11:13 PM
  #175
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Good goal tonight


Last edited by Doug19: 02-10-2013 at 11:25 PM.
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