HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > National Hockey League Talk
National Hockey League Talk Discuss NHL players, teams, games, and the Stanley Cup Playoffs.

Should the Toronto Maple Leafs "Blow it up"?

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
01-29-2013, 08:23 AM
  #126
tony d
Thanks for memories
 
tony d's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Behind A Tree
Country: Canada
Posts: 34,690
vCash: 500
Yeah they should. They probably won't though. The Leafs don't seem like the type of team that would do a proper rebuild.

__________________
tony d is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-29-2013, 08:28 AM
  #127
Kershaw
 
Kershaw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Country:
Posts: 25,519
vCash: 50
They're a younger version of the Calgary Flames.

Phaneuf a younger Bouwmeester. Flawed, overpaid defenseman.

Kessel is a younger Iginla. Both have immense pressure to put team on their backs.

What separates Calgary from the lottery is Kipprusoff, which the Leafs have nothing remotely close to.

Both prospect pools average at best.

Kershaw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-29-2013, 08:31 AM
  #128
TSC*
KPD IS ADB
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Boston, Ma
Country: United States
Posts: 470
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tortorella View Post
They're a younger version of the Calgary Flames.

Phaneuf a younger Bouwmeester. Flawed, overpaid defenseman.

Kessel is a younger Iginla. Both have immense pressure to put team on their backs.

What separates Calgary from the lottery is Kipprusoff, which the Leafs have nothing remotely close to.

Both prospect pools average at best.
Comparing Kessel and Iginla is absurd. Aside from the ability to score goals, the two have nothing else in common whatsoever.

TSC* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-29-2013, 08:35 AM
  #129
TieClark
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 4,004
vCash: 500
It seems odd that a team that should "blow it up" would turn into a team expected to make the playoffs by signing a #1 center. People have this illusion that every team that isn't immediately good should be horrible to get draft picks which isn't the case at all.

TieClark is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-29-2013, 08:35 AM
  #130
ricky0034
Registered User
 
ricky0034's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 7,258
vCash: 500
so what's the endgame here op?

trade the core for prospects then in a few years trade all the new guys for prospects too because they are "poisoned" by losing as well?

ricky0034 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-29-2013, 08:39 AM
  #131
Kershaw
 
Kershaw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Country:
Posts: 25,519
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by TSC View Post
Comparing Kessel and Iginla is absurd. Aside from the ability to score goals, the two have nothing else in common whatsoever.
ding ding ding.

Kershaw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-29-2013, 08:41 AM
  #132
fizban
Registered User
 
fizban's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Country: Aruba
Posts: 1,541
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TSC View Post
Comparing Kessel and Iginla is absurd. Aside from the ability to score goals, the two have nothing else in common whatsoever.
Clearly he was speaking in very general terms and he's unquestionably right to do so. Both are their teams' respective star forwards and both are significantly better than the next best forward on the team. Each is all alone at the top of the talent heap, but neither is the Crosby, Ovechkin or Malkin type that has any hope of carrying the team the whole way through to the cup. So assuming the talent on each of those teams is fully maximized, the Leafs barely miss the playoffs each year and the Flames barely make the playoffs each year (unless Kiprusoff carries the team deeper all on his own).

This has nothing to do with how each plays the game. Everyone knows their play is nothing like the other.

fizban is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-29-2013, 08:51 AM
  #133
Brewsky
King Of The Ice Mugs
 
Brewsky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: King County
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,073
vCash: 500
Send a message via ICQ to Brewsky Send a message via AIM to Brewsky Send a message via MSN to Brewsky Send a message via Yahoo to Brewsky Send a message via Skype™ to Brewsky
We blow it up after every single loss...

Brewsky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-29-2013, 09:44 AM
  #134
WhatThePuck
"Shoots Wide" !!!
 
WhatThePuck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Location: Location
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,064
vCash: 500
Fire Wison !!

WhatThePuck is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
01-29-2013, 10:38 AM
  #135
CN_paladin
Registered User
 
CN_paladin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Westeros
Posts: 2,657
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BROOKLYnKNIGHTS View Post
Blow it up and bring in AHl players while the prospects and draft picks develop. Problem is no more three straight #1 overall picks with the draft. Bettman is back to the old lottery system. A real rebuild may be harder to come by nowadays. Leafs could hope to pick top 5 for the next 5 years though. I think the Kessel trade set the team back. Burke has compounded it by signing marginal free agents that are good enough to keep the team from hitting rockbottom. Burke was also reluctant to trade his vets because he is stubborn and truly believed he was building a contender.

It amazes me how last year Montreal could draft #3 overall and get a stud with the talent on that team. I do realize injuries were a concern but if Price is so good no way do you pick that high. The Leafs have to get lucky like the Canadiens did.
Markov who has always been the single piece that kept our defence together was injured all year long.

The Leafs still have a good core but could really use a MacKinnon just as much as Montreal.

CN_paladin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-29-2013, 10:51 AM
  #136
Espher
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Fredericton, N.B.
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,496
vCash: 500
Send a message via ICQ to Espher Send a message via AIM to Espher Send a message via MSN to Espher Send a message via Yahoo to Espher
I think the Leafs should trade away all of their young acquired talent and draft selections to acquire young talent from other teams and stockpile draft selections.

We can do it every five years in a five year cycle.

Espher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-29-2013, 11:01 AM
  #137
Melnyks Mirage
We are what we are.
 
Melnyks Mirage's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Cumberland
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,911
vCash: 50
Blowing up the Leafs is absurd.

They have a reasonably good #1 D in Dion Phaneuf when he plays within his limits, 20ish minutes a game moving the puck out and occasionally dropping the hammer.
They have two up and coming young puckmovers in Rielly and Gardiner.
They have two decent goaltenders in Reimer and Scrivens with Rynnas and Owuja (sp?) as prospects.
They have a decent forward corps with a near-elite sniper in Kessel and good supporting cast in Kadri, Grabo, Kulemin, Frattin with more supporting pieces in Leivo, Biggs, Colborne, etc.

The Leafs need a #1 centre, a good, veteran goaltender to steady the other two and...that's it.

If the Leafs blow it up they end up with a bunch of prospects that may not improve their current roster and might not answer their current needs.

The Leafs are a scant few points out of 8th place. They have 4 points, logjammed with a bevy of teams and 2-3 points out of 7th or 8th place. You don't blow it up, you are patient and realize that it will take a while to get to the playoffs and then contend. You remove Komisarek, Franson (sp?), Liles and replace them with Rielly, Gardiner, Blacker at al.

And you don't blow up a team that is one of the youngest already, with prospects that won't reach maturity until their early to mid-20s, which is the Leafs current age.

Melnyks Mirage is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-29-2013, 11:08 AM
  #138
JackBauer
Registered User
 
JackBauer's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Ottawa, Ont.
Posts: 2,399
vCash: 500
the team is 1 goalie and maybe a defensive d-man away from being a playoff team. they are currently tied with or better than Carolina, Philly, NYR, and Washington points-wise. so yeah, go ahead and blow it up because you haven't started the season 5-0

JackBauer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-29-2013, 11:08 AM
  #139
Number8
Registered User
 
Number8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,972
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyThoughts View Post
Yes, and so would the majority of Leaf fans. So what's your point? Kessel is the better player than either one of Tyler Seguin and Dougie Hamilton at this point as he was one of the point leaders in 11/12 with hitting 37G (6th in the league/4 years 30G+ in a row) and 82pts(6th in the league).

There is a very good chance that Seguin is never able to match Kessel's offensive peak of 6th leaguewide in both goals and assists -- especially not playing under Julien's stifling defensive system, which seems to be here to stay in Boston. The pedigree of Hamilton is what really tips the scale in favour of Boston and really should have never been included in this trade. I'm a pro-Burke guy and I think this misstep along with the public scrutiny and the team's failures that ensued is what truly cost the guy his job. Burke evaluated the 09/10 Leafs roster to be a playoff contending squad; one whom likely finishes on the bubble drafting at roughly the 15th spot. If Boston drafts Derek Forbort (15th overall in 2010) and J.T. Miller (15th overall in 2011) would anyone ever mention the trade?

In all honesty, if the worst part of that list from 2008-2012 is that we have a PPG goal scoring top line winger instead of a young Top 6 center and top 4 D, it really isn't that bad.. We could be the Habs for example.. Traded a top pairing defenseman for SCOTT GOMEZ
I'm a Bruins fan and I think this is a fair assessment. Nobody figured that with the addition of Kessel to Toronto that the draft picks would yield a #2 Seguin and certainly not a #5 Hamilton -- including Chiarelli. Even if the deal had yielded Seguin and either a Forbort or Miller at this point nobody would be making a big deal. Hindsight is truly 20/20.

The Montreal deal on the other hand......? McDonough was already a Montreal asset and a highly projected prospect. That they traded that kind of asset for that size contract (regardless of the mighty nosedive Gomez took -- which was hard to predict in terms of magnitude) was malpractice, ineptitude, or just plain stupidity. Take your pick!

Number8 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-29-2013, 11:11 AM
  #140
haveandare
Registered User
 
haveandare's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: New York
Country: United States
Posts: 5,804
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SensFanDan View Post
Blowing up the Leafs is absurd.

They have a reasonably good #1 D in Dion Phaneuf when he plays within his limits, 20ish minutes a game moving the puck out and occasionally dropping the hammer.
They have two up and coming young puckmovers in Rielly and Gardiner.
They have two decent goaltenders in Reimer and Scrivens with Rynnas and Owuja (sp?) as prospects.
They have a decent forward corps with a near-elite sniper in Kessel and good supporting cast in Kadri, Grabo, Kulemin, Frattin with more supporting pieces in Leivo, Biggs, Colborne, etc.

The Leafs need a #1 centre, a good, veteran goaltender to steady the other two and...that's it.

If the Leafs blow it up they end up with a bunch of prospects that may not improve their current roster and might not answer their current needs.

The Leafs are a scant few points out of 8th place. They have 4 points, logjammed with a bevy of teams and 2-3 points out of 7th or 8th place. You don't blow it up, you are patient and realize that it will take a while to get to the playoffs and then contend. You remove Komisarek, Franson (sp?), Liles and replace them with Rielly, Gardiner, Blacker at al.

And you don't blow up a team that is one of the youngest already, with prospects that won't reach maturity until their early to mid-20s, which is the Leafs current age.
You're right about what they have but I disagree about how close they are to being complete.

1 first pairing D man and two PMD prospects does not make a suitable NHL defense.
2 goalies who have proven nothing and 2 prospects are okay if, like you said, they add a veteran there.
Kessel is okay given a strong supporting cast but there's isn't nearly strong enough. Look at the teams who are set to compete this year: Pitt, Philly, NYR, LA, STL, Van etc. - they have way, way more depth at forward than Toronto.

I don't know if I agree that they should "blow it up" but they have some big structural problems. First and foremost is that Phaneuf is not good enough to be the #1 guy on a team with a shallow D like that and he's definitely not good enough to warrant 6.5M IMO.

haveandare is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-29-2013, 11:11 AM
  #141
Melnyks Mirage
We are what we are.
 
Melnyks Mirage's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Cumberland
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,911
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by JackBauer View Post
the team is 1 goalie and maybe a defensive d-man away from being a playoff team. they are currently tied with or better than Carolina, Philly, NYR, and Washington points-wise. so yeah, go ahead and blow it up because you haven't started the season 5-0
^^^ This man gets it.

The Leafs badly need a veteran D and goalie to steady them. It seems if they get behind they get jitters and mistakes just add up, bad stuff. Wonder if Dave Ellett and Felix Potvin can still skate. :p

Melnyks Mirage is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-29-2013, 11:14 AM
  #142
Melnyks Mirage
We are what we are.
 
Melnyks Mirage's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Cumberland
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,911
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by haveandare View Post
You're right about what they have but I disagree about how close they are to being complete.

1 first pairing D man and two PMD prospects does not make a suitable NHL defense.
2 goalies who have proven nothing and 2 prospects are okay if, like you said, they add a veteran there.
Kessel is okay given a strong supporting cast but there's isn't nearly strong enough. Look at the teams who are set to compete this year: Pitt, Philly, NYR, LA, STL, Van etc. - they have way, way more depth at forward than Toronto.

I don't know if I agree that they should "blow it up" but they have some big structural problems. First and foremost is that Phaneuf is not good enough to be the #1 guy on a team with a shallow D like that and he's definitely not good enough to warrant 6.5M IMO.
They can add to the "D" corps.

Phaneuf - Kostka
X - Gadiner
Rielly - Liles/Komisarek/Franson/X

It's going to take time for them (and as a Senators fan I don't mind that at all ) but the good part is they have a ton of cap space coming up so...

Melnyks Mirage is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-29-2013, 11:21 AM
  #143
fizban
Registered User
 
fizban's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Country: Aruba
Posts: 1,541
vCash: 500
Are the Leafs just trying to make the playoffs, or are they trying to win a cup?

I absolutely agree that they're right there and have a team capable of making the playoffs. If that's their only goal, then the core they have now is sufficient. The problem is that they're going to be more like the 1990's Blues than the Red Wings of the last 20 years. They might be able to keep making the playoffs for quite some time, but they'll never be the team that's favored to win the cup. That is of course, unless they get really lucky via trade or free agency. Neither of which have worked out very well for them lately.

fizban is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-29-2013, 11:37 AM
  #144
blue bleeder 24-7
Registered User
 
blue bleeder 24-7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Country: United States
Posts: 1,784
vCash: 500
The following is my opinion:

I don't know if they really have the materials to "blow it up" and it be worth it.

Kessel and Phaneuf are the only "big" players that would get a return of, minimum, a first round pick.

Lupul, Grabovski and MacArthur look good for 45-60 points in a season. But you have to take into account a few things.

1) They're playing on the top lines on their teams, so they're getting more minutes and more opportunities to put up these points.

Similar players off the top of my head are Ladislav Nagy and Alexi Ponikarovsky. With unproductive teams, they're 45-60 point players. But when moved to teams that have a solid top-6, their production goes off a cliff. This sort of thing would deter a lot of GM's from giving htem the value that they are perceived to have in Toronto.

2) There are plenty of players that can put up these numbers. In 2011-12, you have 128 players who put up at least 45 points. And that's absolute points, rather than projected on an 82 game season

3) All of these players are 27-30, so the "new prospect smell" has worn off of them as far as trade-value goes.

So in my opinion... the Leafs are better just staying the course. Collect a few high draft picks for the next couple years, and use the players you have as a core to build around and eventually, phase them out in favor of younger players.

Edit to add:

Quote:
Originally Posted by fizban View Post
Are the Leafs just trying to make the playoffs, or are they trying to win a cup?

I absolutely agree that they're right there and have a team capable of making the playoffs. If that's their only goal, then the core they have now is sufficient. The problem is that they're going to be more like the 1990's Blues than the Red Wings of the last 20 years. They might be able to keep making the playoffs for quite some time, but they'll never be the team that's favored to win the cup. That is of course, unless they get really lucky via trade or free agency. Neither of which have worked out very well for them lately.
Just, since I'm a Blues fan, and I saw this.

The 90's Blues and current Leafs are not comparable imo, unless you just mean results. The Blues severely underachevied in the 90's. Gretzky, Hull, Oates, Demitra, Turgeon, Shanahan, Stastny, MacInnis, Pronger, Stevens, Housely, Fuhr, Joesph... Leading into the 2000s with.... Tkachuk, Weight, Osgood... With support players like: Young, Mellanby, Drake... Not that all those names played on the same team, but... assemblages of names like this should win you a cup.

The Maple Leafs aren't in that situation. They're getting excellent mileage for the players they have.


Last edited by blue bleeder 24-7: 01-29-2013 at 11:50 AM.
blue bleeder 24-7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-29-2013, 12:09 PM
  #145
Nash
Registered User
 
Nash's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: North Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,916
vCash: 500
The Leafs should trade Phaneuf. He is 27, with 2 years left in a $6.5 million cap hit. The core going forward is mostly 18-25 right now, and a few years away from competing. I doubt Dion will take a paycut anyways, so he is a tradeable asset. There are teams desperate for defenseman. If the Leafs could turn DP into a young potential number one center and a pick that fits with the core age group, it would be a huge turn for the future of the franchise.

The Leafs don't need to spend to the cap with all these young players coming in, so they can actually afford to eat some of his salary in a trade and even take back a bad contract, if necessary, in order to get a home run of a deal. Philly is pretty desperate since Pronger is done. They have a sickening glut of forward depth, including 7 players on their roster who are all centers, many of which have been forced to play wing. If you look at who they have drafted for forwards in the first rounds from 2003 until now, you know they have an eye for talent. You could probably even get a late first rounder from them.

Nash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-29-2013, 12:27 PM
  #146
Bruin4Life
Registered User
 
Bruin4Life's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 552
vCash: 500
Remember this thread before Kessel was traded? Apparentely they were just on the outside looking in and Kessel would push them into the playoffs

They need to rebuild properly. They should trade Macarthur,Lupul,Kessel,Grabo and Phaneuf. It's one of the deepest drafts in a while. Get as many prospects and firsts.

Bruin4Life is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-29-2013, 12:38 PM
  #147
Habsawce
Registered User
 
Habsawce's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Canada
Posts: 11,969
vCash: 200


This makes me laugh every time.

To the question, I don't think they need to do a full rebuild but they do need to find a goalie and tank at least one season to draft a legit #1 centre. 2-3 years tops.

Habsawce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-29-2013, 12:43 PM
  #148
azaloum90
Registered User
 
azaloum90's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: The coop!
Posts: 2,588
vCash: 500
Getting rid of Scrivens would be a wonderful start. Guy ******* sucks monkey nuts... The other night (watched the highlights) he let in 2 or 3 VERY average shots that most goalies would have no issue stopping...

azaloum90 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-29-2013, 12:53 PM
  #149
Marco Esquandolas
Registered Abuser
 
Marco Esquandolas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Toronto, ON
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,624
vCash: 1170
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tortorella View Post
ding ding ding.
David Clarkson scored 30 goals
Phil Kessel scored 30 goals

DAVID CLARKSON IS PHIL KESSEL????

Marco Esquandolas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-29-2013, 02:19 PM
  #150
Qvist
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Country: Norway
Posts: 2,337
vCash: 500
They already are blown up.

Qvist is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:43 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.