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Jets - Free Agents, Trades, Rumors, Speculation - 2012-13 (Part XI)

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02-14-2013, 03:45 PM
  #301
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lol, I wasn't wondering if that could possibly happened or why would Avs do it. It was theoretical question. We were talking about it at work and had really good conversation, thought I would ask here.

P.S To answer the question why would Avs do it - simply cause Jets have enough assets to overpay and land them both

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02-14-2013, 04:08 PM
  #302
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We pretty much only have Burmistrov and Scheifele that have any top six potential that are at the developing age. Maybe you could count Lowry but he's still got a little ways to go as well. Co siderig neither are likely to be Top 10 NHL wide at their position, we'll probably need at least three #2 or better centres to even make it out of the first round. Too many centres is the last of our issues to me.
I realize that. But I wouldn't be interested in him at more then 5mil per year. That's alot of coin.

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02-14-2013, 04:12 PM
  #303
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Originally Posted by Fuelled by Passion View Post
lol, I wasn't wondering if that could possibly happened or why would Avs do it. It was theoretical question. We were talking about it at work and had really good conversation, thought I would ask here.

P.S To answer the question why would Avs do it - simply cause Jets have enough assets to overpay and land them both
We do? So who do ROR and Duchene play with once we overpay and send all those assets away?

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02-14-2013, 04:28 PM
  #304
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OMG just forget it.

Just a hint, when person asks a question he/she expects an answer not a question and when he explains the reasoning for his/her question and even kindly gives and answer on a question he was asked he doesn't expect a new question to arise

So basically for my question I got 3 answers and all of there where questions lol

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02-14-2013, 04:54 PM
  #305
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The point Fuelled is that you don't get far by unloading your future assets just to win now.

I still say to this day that the biggest reason we don't compete with most of the league is because we stay so far below the salary cap ceiling. We should have (and could have) had a real chance at Parise this offseason and if he was really wanting to play with Suter we could have even made an attempt at them both. That's how much cap room we carry.

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02-14-2013, 05:00 PM
  #306
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Originally Posted by PlayTheTrap View Post
The point Fuelled is that you don't get far by unloading your future assets just to win now.

I still say to this day that the biggest reason we don't compete with most of the league is because we stay so far below the salary cap ceiling. We should have (and could have) had a real chance at Parise this offseason and if he was really wanting to play with Suter we could have even made an attempt at them both. That's how much cap room we carry.
tell me how the leafs habs and rangers have done spending the cap?

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02-14-2013, 05:14 PM
  #307
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Originally Posted by PlayTheTrap View Post
The point Fuelled is that you don't get far by unloading your future assets just to win now.

I still say to this day that the biggest reason we don't compete with most of the league is because we stay so far below the salary cap ceiling. We should have (and could have) had a real chance at Parise this offseason and if he was really wanting to play with Suter we could have even made an attempt at them both. That's how much cap room we carry.
not to mention minesota with those too. turned them into a contender...there in ...9th currently...

just playing devils advocate here...

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02-14-2013, 05:16 PM
  #308
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Originally Posted by Grind View Post
not to mention minesota with those too. turned them into a contender...there in ...9th currently...

just playing devils advocate here...
Ya... huge overpayment and handcuffing contracts to barely make them not even better than us...
I'm glad we don't have anything remotely as bad as those. Even if not all of our contracts (Pavelec) are pretty, that is a realm I never want to be in.

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02-14-2013, 05:39 PM
  #309
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Originally Posted by King Woodballs View Post
tell me how the leafs habs and rangers have done spending the cap?
Here are the Cup winners since the cap was introduced in 2005-06:

Kings in 2011-12 = $63,671,201. Cap = $64.3 million (99%).
Boston in 2010-11 = $60,179,106. Cap = $60 million (100%).
Blackhawks in 2009-10 = $55,762,544. Cap = $59.4 million (94%)
Pens in 08-09 = $55,860,867. Cap = $56.7 million (98.5%)
Detroit in 07-08 = $44,633,000. Cap = 50.3 million (89%)
Ducks in 06-07 = $40,461,433. Cap = $44 million (92%)
Carolina in 05-06 = $35,308,700. Cap = $39 million (90.5%)

And us:
Winnipeg in 2012-13: $57,150,761. Cap = $70.4 million (81%)
Winnipeg in 2011-12: $51,760,331. Cap = $64.3 million (80%)
Atlanta in 2010-11: $41,796,486. Cap = $59.4 million (70%)
Atlanta in 2009-10: $46,261,182. Cap = $56.8 million (81%)

Sorry - it was too much trouble to find older data for Atlanta...and I'm lazy

Anyway, not saying that spending to/near the cap is a guaranteed winner - but spending 20% under the cap seems to herald missing the playoffs.

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02-14-2013, 05:45 PM
  #310
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Originally Posted by Gm0ney View Post
Here are the Cup winners since the cap was introduced in 2005-06:

Kings in 2011-12 = $63,671,201. Cap = $64.3 million (99%).
Boston in 2010-11 = $60,179,106. Cap = $60 million (100%).
Blackhawks in 2009-10 = $55,762,544. Cap = $59.4 million (94%)
Pens in 08-09 = $55,860,867. Cap = $56.7 million (98.5%)
Detroit in 07-08 = $44,633,000. Cap = 50.3 million (89%)
Ducks in 06-07 = $40,461,433. Cap = $44 million (92%)
Carolina in 05-06 = $35,308,700. Cap = $39 million (90.5%)

And us:
Winnipeg in 2012-13: $57,150,761. Cap = $70.4 million (81%)
Winnipeg in 2011-12: $51,760,331. Cap = $64.3 million (80%)
Atlanta in 2010-11: $41,796,486. Cap = $59.4 million (70%)
Atlanta in 2009-10: $46,261,182. Cap = $56.8 million (81%)

Sorry - it was too much trouble to find older data for Atlanta...and I'm lazy

Anyway, not saying that spending to/near the cap is a guaranteed winner - but spending 20% under the cap seems to herald missing the playoffs.
Although that doesn't definitively prove your point (which I partially agree upon), it's definitely a piece of evidence.

I think NHLNumbers did a post lockout wins/$ or playoffs/$ or something of the sort (you're not the only lazy one), and the larger spenders do end up getting more wins/playoffs than the not-so-spenders... and that's with TO and MTL pulling down the spenders records...

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02-14-2013, 06:24 PM
  #311
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Originally Posted by King Woodballs View Post
tell me how the leafs habs and rangers have done spending the cap?
Rangers and habs have the talent but they just don't compete up to the level of it, the Leafs just make stupid decisions and seem to trade their top prospects away all the time.

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02-14-2013, 06:27 PM
  #312
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Originally Posted by PlayTheTrap View Post
The point Fuelled is that you don't get far by unloading your future assets just to win now.

I still say to this day that the biggest reason we don't compete with most of the league is because we stay so far below the salary cap ceiling. We should have (and could have) had a real chance at Parise this offseason and if he was really wanting to play with Suter we could have even made an attempt at them both. That's how much cap room we carry.
Parise chose Minnesota because he's from there, and Suter wanted to play with him. We had no shot at him.

I just shake my head at some people that say "Oh this GM failed because he didn't sign X player", as though if he had offered him a dollar more than another team that the player would have instantly signed.

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02-14-2013, 06:32 PM
  #313
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Originally Posted by Grind View Post
not to mention minesota with those too. turned them into a contender...there in ...9th currently...

just playing devils advocate here...
And who else is really on their team? Without Parise and Suter they'd basically haave nothing but Backstrom in net with aging players like Koivu and Heatley.

At least we have younger players who still have a potential ceiling they haven't reached yet like Kane, Little, Burmistrov, Enstrom and Wheeler. We also have vets who are still decently young like Byfuglien, Bogosian, Hainsey, Pavelec and Ladd.

Can you name 10 players on the Wild (not Parise and Suter) that can "compete" talent-wise to the players I mentioned?

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02-14-2013, 06:38 PM
  #314
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Originally Posted by tbcwpg View Post
Parise chose Minnesota because he's from there, and Suter wanted to play with him. We had no shot at him.

I just shake my head at some people that say "Oh this GM failed because he didn't sign X player", as though if he had offered him a dollar more than another team that the player would have instantly signed.
I never said a word about Chevy failing. In fact, I bet he DID call them both.

I know Parise is from Minnesota but he didn't just sign there because of that. He wanted to be part of a rebuild, have a decent prospect pool and wanted a chance to compete now.

We have all of that but the hometown aspect was the difference in the end because Minnesota also has all of that.

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02-14-2013, 06:42 PM
  #315
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Originally Posted by garret9 View Post
Although that doesn't definitively prove your point (which I partially agree upon), it's definitely a piece of evidence.

I think NHLNumbers did a post lockout wins/$ or playoffs/$ or something of the sort (you're not the only lazy one), and the larger spenders do end up getting more wins/playoffs than the not-so-spenders... and that's with TO and MTL pulling down the spenders records...
The reason that cup winners are usually right up against the cap is twofold:

1> Better players are more expensive. I know, duh. What I mean to say is that they have drafted and developed good players and have to pay them market value (Chicago, Pittsburgh)
2> A team that is close to contending will go out and get their last pieces/ insurance parts. Those players are also usually quite expensive, unless it's just depth players.

So, now you have 2 types of teams up against the cap: The teams that are true contenders and are paying their great players fair salaries, and teams that just go out and overpay for a bunch of mis matched UFA junk. Guess what team we'd be right now

We have to wait till the time is right to go out and get some players. We have to do more than just load up payroll for the sake of being up against the cap, it won't make us better. We also have to be responsible, look ahead and see who we will have to be giving raises to over the next few years.

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02-14-2013, 06:52 PM
  #316
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Originally Posted by Brogosian View Post
The reason that cup winners are usually right up against the cap is twofold:

1> Better players are more expensive. I know, duh. What I mean to say is that they have drafted and developed good players and have to pay them market value (Chicago, Pittsburgh)
2> A team that is close to contending will go out and get their last pieces/ insurance parts. Those players are also usually quite expensive, unless it's just depth players.

So, now you have 2 types of teams up against the cap: The teams that are true contenders and are paying their great players fair salaries, and teams that just go out and overpay for a bunch of mis matched UFA junk. Guess what team we'd be right now

We have to wait till the time is right to go out and get some players. We have to do more than just load up payroll for the sake of being up against the cap, it won't make us better. We also have to be responsible, look ahead and see who we will have to be giving raises to over the next few years.
I'd agree with you if Parise and Suter wouldn't be good fits here but they wouldn't be "mis-matched UFA junk".

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02-14-2013, 07:29 PM
  #317
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hey now! Olli isn't mismatched! His uniform looks the same as everyone elses...

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02-14-2013, 07:40 PM
  #318
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hey now! Olli isn't mismatched! His uniform looks the same as everyone elses...
And to be fair Jokinen is underperforming offensive as much as the rest of the team.

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02-14-2013, 07:48 PM
  #319
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Originally Posted by Brogosian View Post
The reason that cup winners are usually right up against the cap is twofold:

1> Better players are more expensive. I know, duh. What I mean to say is that they have drafted and developed good players and have to pay them market value (Chicago, Pittsburgh)
2> A team that is close to contending will go out and get their last pieces/ insurance parts. Those players are also usually quite expensive, unless it's just depth players.

So, now you have 2 types of teams up against the cap: The teams that are true contenders and are paying their great players fair salaries, and teams that just go out and overpay for a bunch of mis matched UFA junk. Guess what team we'd be right now

We have to wait till the time is right to go out and get some players. We have to do more than just load up payroll for the sake of being up against the cap, it won't make us better. We also have to be responsible, look ahead and see who we will have to be giving raises to over the next few years.
Right - money can't fix bad management. And the cap tends to flatten things out where you've got Crosby and Parise making $12 million next season...I guess they're worth the same?

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02-14-2013, 07:58 PM
  #320
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I realize that. But I wouldn't be interested in him at more then 5mil per year. That's alot of coin.
Agree Sully. I wouldn't want him at $5+ mill/yr either, until he really deserved that kind of coin.

I'd offer 2 yr/$8 mill contract. Then, if he puts up 25+ goals and 40+ assists and plays a great 2-way game, sign him to a long-term deal at bigger money.

I think he's the type of player this team needs, and though i like Burmi, i'm not sure he reaches ROR's ceiling and the Jets need another solid, young top 6 center, imo.

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02-14-2013, 08:00 PM
  #321
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And who else is really on their team? Without Parise and Suter they'd basically haave nothing but Backstrom in net with aging players like Koivu and Heatley.

At least we have younger players who still have a potential ceiling they haven't reached yet like Kane, Little, Burmistrov, Enstrom and Wheeler. We also have vets who are still decently young like Byfuglien, Bogosian, Hainsey, Pavelec and Ladd.

Can you name 10 players on the Wild (not Parise and Suter) that can "compete" talent-wise to the players I mentioned?
I'd hardly call Mikko Koivu old at 29. He'd be the BEST center on this team.

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02-14-2013, 08:03 PM
  #322
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I'd hardly call Mikko Koivu old at 29. He'd be the BEST center on this team.
Remember
Koivu (29) is old
Enstrom (28) is young

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02-14-2013, 08:19 PM
  #323
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What would we give up for oreilly? His first two seasons are similar to burmistrovs.

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02-14-2013, 08:22 PM
  #324
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We do? So who do ROR and Duchene play with once we overpay and send all those assets away?
I agree Huffer. I was thinking...

Balance of 2012/13:

Kane/O'Reilly/XX
Ladd/Jokinen/Wheeler
Tangradi/Antro/Wellwood
Wright/Slater/Thorbs
Mittens/Peluso

XX - i had as Little, but could be Burmi, too, depending on what Colorado wants for O'Reilly.

In 2013/14:

Kane/O'Reilly/XX
Ladd/Jokinen/Wheeler
Tangradi/Scheifele/YY
??/Slater/??

YY - is either Telegin, Machacek, Lowry or a FA. My favorite option (likely not until 2014/15 though) would be a Lowry/Scheifele/Tangradi line. Scheifele, at 6'3 is the 'small' guy on that 3rd line.

In 2014/15:

Kane/O'Reilly/XX
Ladd/ZZ or Scheifele/Wheeler
Tangradi/Scheifele or ZZ/YY
??/Slater/??


ZZ - is this year's 1st rd pick. Depending on where the Jets pick, it could be Monahan, Lindholm or perhaps even MacKinnon at this rate (though MacKinnon may jump to 1st line with O'Reilly moving to 2nd line).


I like Little, for now, slotting into a RW spot in the top 6. He can be a sniper or playmaker, depending on his linemates.

The hope would be O'Reilly develops some chemistry with Kane, and plays a solid defensive game as well. ROR is a solid playmaker so that might work quite well.

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02-14-2013, 08:22 PM
  #325
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I'd hardly call Mikko Koivu old at 29. He'd be the BEST center on this team.
I wouldn't limit that to center. He'd be the best forward on this team, and quite possibly the best player period.

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