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Ballard to the Pens

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Old
01-29-2013, 12:15 PM
  #26
Sidney the Kidney
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Originally Posted by Shady Machine View Post
Our defense has been fine. I'm not sure what you're watching.
This. Apart from the questionable insertion of Lovejoy over Despres, for the most part our struggles have been because of turnovers and forwards not doing their job. The actual 6-man defense unit has been decent.

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01-29-2013, 12:31 PM
  #27
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Our defense hasn't been bad at all except for Lovejoy. I wouldn't panic right now and Martin has seemed to find his game back

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Old
01-29-2013, 02:15 PM
  #28
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Pens don't need Ballard IMO, their D isn't as bad as the OP makes it sound (from an outsider perspective of course).

The Canucks would need an overpayment to get Ballard at present, as in the last 9 or so games (including last season's playoff debacle) he has been our best defender, so we're not selling him low when he's finally shown a reasonable stint of games as the defender we traded Grabner, our 1st and Bernier for.

To answer the OP though, usually I'd say a second an a comparibly valued prospect as a high estimate, but until Hamhuis, Bieksa, Edler and Garrison start playing hockey, we're keeping him.

Also, he is LD, not RD...just to clear that up...that's why he's so low down our depth chart.

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Old
01-29-2013, 02:39 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by kratzbuerste View Post
Awesome, not that Martin plays fine, an overpaid buyout candidate is just the thing this teams been missing.
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Originally Posted by Riptide View Post
No, no, no! I do not want Ballard on this team. Yes he'd likely do better here than in Van due to the style of play (not that it would be hard either). If we're not bringing in a big crease clearing guy, then we need to start playing the rookies we have.
I'm curious how long it takes for a player's reputation to change here at HF. Given the history of such discussions, it seems it takes *a lot* longer for a player to shed a negative reputation then it does a positive one.

When Ballard arrived in Vancouver, after being considered a solid top-4 dman with his previous teams, he had a solid reputation as a guy who can play physical, block tons of shots, throw lots of hits and skate among the better dmen in the game.

His first season in Vancouver was horrible. He quickly became overrated and useless. No consideration was given to the fact he's with a new team and had to deal with injuries for the time first in his career.

His second season in Vancouver was better... though he still dealt with injury issues, he consistently got better all season long, and finished the year as one of the team's better dmen in the playoffs (according to many fans, their best dman in the playoffs).

This season he's again playing well, and looks to be continuing to build on his turnaround from last season. It's been a long time now since Ballard has been that useless plug on the bottom pairing that should be bought out. However, that reputation has still stuck with him.

It's understandable that most fans, like the ones I've quoted above, don't watch many games from other teams, especially those in inconvenient time zones, and just rely on past responses and fan "scouting reports" and assume that's reality.

So my question is how long, typically, does it take fans to realize that they need to stop holding onto reports from two seasons ago and start assessing the player for what he is today? Obviously it's different with younger players, since they always have that "upside and potential" tag to fall back on. But for veterans, when do people start realizing that their assessments from two years ago no longer holds value, and the player that they think they know (who they never really bother watching) isn't the same player he once was for a handful of games a couple years ago when he was adjusting to a new system and dealing with injuries for the first time in his life.

Ballard's two seasons removed from that start in Vancouver, and has consistently been improving since then. This season so far is just more of the same from last year, still showing consistent improvement.

So when do fans put their assumptions aside and start evaluating a player for what they are today, not the hype they heard from a couple years ago? another season? another 2 years? never?

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Old
01-29-2013, 02:44 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by DropkickQuinn View Post
I'd say Bortuzzo+Dumoulin is a fair offer
I'm not going to argue value, but I wouldn't be happy if the Pens made that deal.

I've been really impressed with Dumoulin, and I'd rather see what he can do here than bring in someone like Ballard.

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01-29-2013, 02:47 PM
  #31
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Not for sale. He has been surprisingly consistent, and even more surprisingly good. His value on the market is not worth moving him right now.

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01-29-2013, 02:48 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NFITO View Post
I'm curious how long it takes for a player's reputation to change here at HF. Given the history of such discussions, it seems it takes *a lot* longer for a player to shed a negative reputation then it does a positive one.

When Ballard arrived in Vancouver, after being considered a solid top-4 dman with his previous teams, he had a solid reputation as a guy who can play physical, block tons of shots, throw lots of hits and skate among the better dmen in the game.

His first season in Vancouver was horrible. He quickly became overrated and useless. No consideration was given to the fact he's with a new team and had to deal with injuries for the time first in his career.

His second season in Vancouver was better... though he still dealt with injury issues, he consistently got better all season long, and finished the year as one of the team's better dmen in the playoffs (according to many fans, their best dman in the playoffs).

This season he's again playing well, and looks to be continuing to build on his turnaround from last season. It's been a long time now since Ballard has been that useless plug on the bottom pairing that should be bought out. However, that reputation has still stuck with him.

It's understandable that most fans, like the ones I've quoted above, don't watch many games from other teams, especially those in inconvenient time zones, and just rely on past responses and fan "scouting reports" and assume that's reality.

So my question is how long, typically, does it take fans to realize that they need to stop holding onto reports from two seasons ago and start assessing the player for what he is today? Obviously it's different with younger players, since they always have that "upside and potential" tag to fall back on. But for veterans, when do people start realizing that their assessments from two years ago no longer holds value, and the player that they think they know (who they never really bother watching) isn't the same player he once was for a handful of games a couple years ago when he was adjusting to a new system and dealing with injuries for the first time in his life.

Ballard's two seasons removed from that start in Vancouver, and has consistently been improving since then. This season so far is just more of the same from last year, still showing consistent improvement.

So when do fans put their assumptions aside and start evaluating a player for what they are today, not the hype they heard from a couple years ago? another season? another 2 years? never?
I'm a long time a booster of his both before we traded for him, and after, and it's criminal the amount of disrespect he gets from even our own fanbase. I am seconding this question, he's been our best defender, or at least second to Tanev, since his return during the playoffs last season. I also want to post a question of my own as an open letter reply to NFITO:

What does he have to do to get back into the good graces of our fans and on HF?

He is a great locker room guy, small but very physical, he's not beating Raymond or Kesler in a foot race but is very fast and very slick, he can carry and pass the puck and the big difference from his first season here has been positioning and his decision making, which have both improved incredibly. GWG in the cup finals this year? Norris? Hart? Art Ross?

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Old
01-29-2013, 02:50 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by NFITO View Post
I'm curious how long it takes for a player's reputation to change here at HF. Given the history of such discussions, it seems it takes *a lot* longer for a player to shed a negative reputation then it does a positive one.
Well, I have nothing against Ballard, really, and will be totally upfront and admit I have not seen any VAN games this season yet.

It is just Martin and Niskanen and Orpik (so basically everyone who anyone ever wanted to bump out of the Pens top4, Letang always seemes kinda save in people`s regards) are doing very well so far as well, so I don`t see where getting someone else`s coddle up project earning twice as much as Niskanen is helping our top4 D out. At all.

P.S.: Also, his value may well have improved, but you are in a thread in which someone brought up Neal for Ballard, so, you know, with the hyperbole on both sides...

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Old
01-29-2013, 02:57 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by kratzbuerste View Post
Well, I have nothing against Ballard, really, and will be totally upfront and admit I have not seen any VAN games this season yet.

It is just Martin and Niskanen and Orpik (so basically everyone who anyone ever wanted to bump out of the Pens top4, Letang always seemes kinda save in people`s regards) are doing very well so far as well, so I don`t see where getting someone else`s coddle up project earning twice as much as Niskanen is helping our top4 D out. At all.

P.S.: Also, his value may well have improved, but you are in a thread in which someone brought up Neal for Ballard, so, you know, with the hyperbole on both sides...
Totally fair reasoning, and an overpayment wouldn't be needed for a piece that isn't going to improve the top 4 right away. It follows.

As for Neal for Ballard...well, like you said, you've not seen many Canucks games this season Ballard and Tanev, our third pairing on paper, have been doing everything well so far. 40 goal winger for Ballard though?...Nah, not from the Pens perspective at all.

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01-29-2013, 03:05 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NFITO View Post
I'm curious how long it takes for a player's reputation to change here at HF. Given the history of such discussions, it seems it takes *a lot* longer for a player to shed a negative reputation then it does a positive one.
Ask Washington fans how often they are told Green still can't play defense.

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Old
01-29-2013, 03:41 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Cogburn View Post
Totally fair reasoning, and an overpayment wouldn't be needed for a piece that isn't going to improve the top 4 right away. It follows.

As for Neal for Ballard...well, like you said, you've not seen many Canucks games this season Ballard and Tanev, our third pairing on paper, have been doing everything well so far. 40 goal winger for Ballard though?...Nah, not from the Pens perspective at all.
It is my new years resolution to be better at admitting when I am wrong. I was here. I tried for hyperbole and it was not funny. What I should have said in the first place is: I am happy with our top4 and have nothing further to contribute.

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Old
01-29-2013, 03:42 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NFITO View Post
I'm curious how long it takes for a player's reputation to change here at HF. Given the history of such discussions, it seems it takes *a lot* longer for a player to shed a negative reputation then it does a positive one.

It's been a long time now since Ballard has been that useless plug on the bottom pairing that should be bought out. However, that reputation has still stuck with him.

It's understandable that most fans, like the ones I've quoted above, don't watch many games from other teams, especially those in inconvenient time zones, and just rely on past responses and fan "scouting reports" and assume that's reality.

So my question is how long, typically, does it take fans to realize that they need to stop holding onto reports from two seasons ago and start assessing the player for what he is today? Obviously it's different with younger players, since they always have that "upside and potential" tag to fall back on. But for veterans, when do people start realizing that their assessments from two years ago no longer holds value, and the player that they think they know (who they never really bother watching) isn't the same player he once was for a handful of games a couple years ago when he was adjusting to a new system and dealing with injuries for the first time in his life.

So when do fans put their assumptions aside and start evaluating a player for what they are today, not the hype they heard from a couple years ago? another season? another 2 years? never?
I think you need to re-read my quote again. I stated specifically why I didn't want Ballard. And it's has nothing to do with his play or reputation. Yes his play was horrid the last few years (although I think it's more that AV misused him than anything else). And neither Martin or Orpik will get bumped out of the top 4. We do not need him. We have Letang & Niskanen who are similar (small/undersized PMD who can skate and hit), with better cap hits. What we need on the blueline is someone big and nasty who can clear the crease. Ballard does absolutely nothing to address this, and comes with a high cap hit that would cause us issues. So the fact that someone (a Pens fan) is proposing a trade for him is [insert whatever adjective you want].

So please... why would it make sense for Pittsburgh to acquire him?

As for his reputation, (IMO) he'd have to have at least 1.5 seasons to rebuild his reputation. 1 full season and then some to rule out the chance that it was a fluke, and that they've improved or are back to their old self, etc.

And I'd be careful making assumptions that posters do not watch Canuck games. I have family/friends in Van and see several games live each year, and watch many more games on TV - mostly to cheer for the other team (joys of living in the west). Alongside Montreal, they're right up there with the teams I can't stand. But being a western team in Canada, we get more than our fair share of them - whether we want to or not.

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Old
01-29-2013, 03:45 PM
  #38
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No thanks to trading Ballard. He's proving his play vs. LA last year wasn't a fluke. I just wish he was right handed. So, I guess I'd trade him for a RH top 4 defenseman.

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Old
01-29-2013, 03:50 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Cogburn View Post
Pens don't need Ballard IMO, their D isn't as bad as the OP makes it sound (from an outsider perspective of course).

The Canucks would need an overpayment to get Ballard at present, as in the last 9 or so games (including last season's playoff debacle) he has been our best defender, so we're not selling him low when he's finally shown a reasonable stint of games as the defender we traded Grabner, our 1st and Bernier for.

To answer the OP though, usually I'd say a second an a comparibly valued prospect as a high estimate, but until Hamhuis, Bieksa, Edler and Garrison start playing hockey, we're keeping him.

Also, he is LD, not RD...just to clear that up...that's why he's so low down our depth chart.
You're not getting an overpayment for Ballard based on a few good games of play.

He makes 4.2 million a year still. He has been good defencesively so far. However, he still has zero points.

The value the Canucks gave up for him was based on him not only being defensively responsible but also putting up about .4ppg.

If Ballard finishes the season with 15+points, and playing #2-3 minutes, then start to talk about an overpayment or at the very least bring what you paid for him into the conversation.

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01-29-2013, 03:54 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NFITO View Post
I'm curious how long it takes for a player's reputation to change here at HF. Given the history of such discussions, it seems it takes *a lot* longer for a player to shed a negative reputation then it does a positive one.

When Ballard arrived in Vancouver, after being considered a solid top-4 dman with his previous teams, he had a solid reputation as a guy who can play physical, block tons of shots, throw lots of hits and skate among the better dmen in the game.

His first season in Vancouver was horrible. He quickly became overrated and useless. No consideration was given to the fact he's with a new team and had to deal with injuries for the time first in his career.

His second season in Vancouver was better... though he still dealt with injury issues, he consistently got better all season long, and finished the year as one of the team's better dmen in the playoffs (according to many fans, their best dman in the playoffs).

This season he's again playing well, and looks to be continuing to build on his turnaround from last season. It's been a long time now since Ballard has been that useless plug on the bottom pairing that should be bought out. However, that reputation has still stuck with him.

It's understandable that most fans, like the ones I've quoted above, don't watch many games from other teams, especially those in inconvenient time zones, and just rely on past responses and fan "scouting reports" and assume that's reality.

So my question is how long, typically, does it take fans to realize that they need to stop holding onto reports from two seasons ago and start assessing the player for what he is today? Obviously it's different with younger players, since they always have that "upside and potential" tag to fall back on. But for veterans, when do people start realizing that their assessments from two years ago no longer holds value, and the player that they think they know (who they never really bother watching) isn't the same player he once was for a handful of games a couple years ago when he was adjusting to a new system and dealing with injuries for the first time in his life.

Ballard's two seasons removed from that start in Vancouver, and has consistently been improving since then. This season so far is just more of the same from last year, still showing consistent improvement.

So when do fans put their assumptions aside and start evaluating a player for what they are today, not the hype they heard from a couple years ago? another season? another 2 years? never?
I think most poster see that Ballard used to put up points, and now he doesn't, and so they see him as useless. Ballard is probably better defensively now than he was in Florida, yet that detail is irrelevant as he doesn't put up 20 or so points per year.

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Old
01-29-2013, 09:09 PM
  #41
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It's one of those "whodathunkit" kind of things with Ballard right now. Taken 2 straight seasons as the butt of everyone's jokes, but so far he and Tanev have been by far our best defensive pairing. Like, by light years. It's frightening. No points yet, but they're the only ones doing good defensive work for us right now.

We're hanging on to Ballard and Tanev for dear life atm.

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01-29-2013, 09:59 PM
  #42
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here's a better offer: Tangradi for Kesler and the Sedins.
Only if you also take our first round pick as a pick dump.

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01-29-2013, 10:12 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by ProstheticConscience View Post
It's one of those "whodathunkit" kind of things with Ballard right now. Taken 2 straight seasons as the butt of everyone's jokes, but so far he and Tanev have been by far our best defensive pairing. Like, by light years. It's frightening. No points yet, but they're the only ones doing good defensive work for us right now.

We're hanging on to Ballard and Tanev for dear life atm.
Not that I have any interest in Ballard and the Penguins, five games is a solid sample size to automatically say a guy that has been the "butt of everyone's jokes" or the team whipping boy is now all the sudden a keeper? I don't get how guys that everyone wanted to move are now all the sudden off limits after a five game sample.

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01-29-2013, 10:22 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by OCPenguin View Post
Not that I have any interest in Ballard and the Penguins, five games is a solid sample size to automatically say a guy that has been the "butt of everyone's jokes" or the team whipping boy is now all the sudden a keeper? I don't get how guys that everyone wanted to move are now all the sudden off limits after a five game sample.
I didn't say I wanted to keep them unto infinity, just that right now they're the only defencemen actually playing defence. atm = at this moment. Our supposed top 4 has had massive trouble getting into the swing of things and until that's rectified, I'm not in favour of losing either Ballard or Tanev. All I was saying.

And NFITO had some very good points. Ballard's been on his way back up since his first disastrous season here.

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01-29-2013, 10:23 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by OCPenguin View Post
Not that I have any interest in Ballard and the Penguins, five games is a solid sample size to automatically say a guy that has been the "butt of everyone's jokes" or the team whipping boy is now all the sudden a keeper? I don't get how guys that everyone wanted to move are now all the sudden off limits after a five game sample.
Not everyone wanted to move him. I've been advocating keeping him for 2 years now. The reason he's "off limits" is because it's hard to imagine improving our current roster by trading him. Our defensive talent takes a big drop after our top 6, and we're clearly in win now mode so it doesn't make sense to weaken our roster. With Kesler and Booth back we wouldn't even have a hole to fill that's bigger than the one potentially made by moving Ballard.

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01-29-2013, 10:24 PM
  #46
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Why would the Canucks trade their best d-man?

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01-29-2013, 10:34 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by ProstheticConscience View Post
It's one of those "whodathunkit" kind of things with Ballard right now. Taken 2 straight seasons as the butt of everyone's jokes, but so far he and Tanev have been by far our best defensive pairing. Like, by light years. It's frightening. No points yet, but they're the only ones doing good defensive work for us right now.

We're hanging on to Ballard and Tanev for dear life atm.
It took Bieksa three years. Lets face it. Most of the negativity towards Canuck players starts from Canuck fans and then spreads to fans of other teams believing the negativity coming from home team fans must be true then. Since I have followed the Canucks, there has always been a small contingent of Canuck supporters picking out one or two Canucks and belittling them and offering to tar, feather and drive them to the airport.

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01-29-2013, 11:06 PM
  #48
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Would the Pens fans in here think that the Pens might come kick the tires in the summer?

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01-29-2013, 11:28 PM
  #49
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You're not getting an overpayment for Ballard based on a few good games of play.

He makes 4.2 million a year still. He has been good defencesively so far. However, he still has zero points.

The value the Canucks gave up for him was based on him not only being defensively responsible but also putting up about .4ppg.

If Ballard finishes the season with 15+points, and playing #2-3 minutes, then start to talk about an overpayment or at the very least bring what you paid for him into the conversation.

I'm not sure what your point is. Ballard is a defensive defensman. Points are going to be few and far for this guy. That's not his job

He's paid 4.2 million, which happens to be the 5th highest paid Dman on our team. It just so happens, he's also 5th on the depth chart.. so that also fits..

Bieksa at 4.6m
Garrison at 4.6m
Hamhuis at 4.5m
Edler at 5m
Ballard at 4.2m
Tanev at 900k

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01-30-2013, 01:02 AM
  #50
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I think you need to re-read my quote again. I stated specifically why I didn't want Ballard. And it's has nothing to do with his play or reputation. Yes his play was horrid the last few years (although I think it's more that AV misused him than anything else). And neither Martin or Orpik will get bumped out of the top 4. We do not need him. We have Letang & Niskanen who are similar (small/undersized PMD who can skate and hit), with better cap hits. What we need on the blueline is someone big and nasty who can clear the crease. Ballard does absolutely nothing to address this, and comes with a high cap hit that would cause us issues. So the fact that someone (a Pens fan) is proposing a trade for him is [insert whatever adjective you want].

So please... why would it make sense for Pittsburgh to acquire him?

As for his reputation, (IMO) he'd have to have at least 1.5 seasons to rebuild his reputation. 1 full season and then some to rule out the chance that it was a fluke, and that they've improved or are back to their old self, etc.

And I'd be careful making assumptions that posters do not watch Canuck games. I have family/friends in Van and see several games live each year, and watch many more games on TV - mostly to cheer for the other team (joys of living in the west). Alongside Montreal, they're right up there with the teams I can't stand. But being a western team in Canada, we get more than our fair share of them - whether we want to or not.
I think you need to re-read my post again. I'm not suggesting he's a good fit in Pittsburgh. My response was based on the two quotes that said he's useless, and I'm questioning how long does it take for a player to go from useless to useful in the eyes of fans.

Ballard has been steadily improving for over a year now. His first season was disasterous. His second season was a big improvement - unfortunately he got another long-term injury just when he was showing those signs of improvement. He then came back and showed improvment again in the playoffs last year... and again he's showing that same consistent improvement this season.

That's what I'm wondering about - a player who had a terrible 1st season with a new team, and has since shown consistent improvement over his past season, last playoffs and now so far this season (although we're just 5 games into the new season), still seems to have that useless tag (that he fully earned his first season).

And I have to question whether people actually watch him play, especially over the past season, playoffs and so far this year, as it seems given the comments about how useless he is, people are going by scouting reports of him from his first season in Vancouver and seem to completely ignore the fact that he's improved since.

I'm not questioning whether he's a good fit in Pittsburgh or not... just questioning why despite his obvious improvement over a longer time from his first (shortened due to injury) year in Vancouver?

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