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McGran: Maple Leafs’ trades with Bruins, Sharks opportunities lost

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01-29-2013, 07:10 AM
  #1
BlueNero
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McGran: Maple Leafs’ trades with Bruins, Sharks opportunities lost

McGran is critical of many of the big trades we've made in the post-2005 lockout era. The point essentially comes down to: “What would the Leafs look like with Tuukka Rask, Logan Couture, Tyler Seguin and Dougie Hamilton?”

I'm not sure McGran's analysis is all that fair - even knowing how those trades worked out.

We have to remember that with Rask the problem was that we had two top goaltender prospects who were approaching NHL-readiness and we gambled on Pogge instead of Rask. I remember that at the time it seemed like the better bet - Pogge's stats were better and scouting reports suggested he was No. 1 material. And Raycroft had just come off a Calder-winning rookie season and one sketchy season. Running with Raycroft with Pogge as the backup for a few years seemed to make sense. But then Raycroft sucked, Pogge didn't work out and Rask ascended. Bad result, but not necessarily a bad gamble with the info we had at the time.

And with Kessel, it's easy to critisize the deal knowing that Seguin was the first pick, but nobody thought we were going to finish second last in the league that year. Even the Leaf-haters on TSN and the sports forecasters thought we'd crack the playoffs, so those picks should have been mid-level 1st rounders (think Austin Watson or Nick Bjugstad) rather than Seguin.

Point is, in hindsight all these deals looked bad, but it was a gamble to either make them or not and I'm not sure I would have made them any differently with the information our GMs had at the time they were made.

http://www.thestar.com/sports/leafs/...rtunities-lost


Last edited by BlueNero: 01-29-2013 at 07:17 AM. Reason: Link Added.
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01-29-2013, 07:15 AM
  #2
ACC1224
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Who is McGran?

How is his "analysis" any different than what's been spewed here over the years?

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01-29-2013, 07:15 AM
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SprDaVE
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You win some, you lose some.

Many teams have these types of trades; Leafs are no exception.

We've had a few of them in the last couple years, maybe one too many, but we've also had a lot of good trades to make up for them.

These hypotheticals, in any situation, are going to make people commit suicide.

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01-29-2013, 07:17 AM
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What was the trade for Couture?

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01-29-2013, 07:23 AM
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Diamond Joe Quimby
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The Rask trade was pretty bad from the jump. I remember being more than perturbed at the time. You are correct about the other trades, as hindsight is easily employed by media minds and fans alike.

The Rask trade is just unforgivable. Did more to harm this franchise than the Kessel deal imo.

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01-29-2013, 07:23 AM
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You can pick the two or three worst trades of the 29 other teams in the league and do the exact same thing.

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01-29-2013, 07:24 AM
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satyr9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by forsberg View Post
What was the trade for Couture?
Toskala for a first.


edit: I'll also say I was dramatically against the Kessel trade when it happened, but you also have to consider that BOS got very very very lucky with those two picks. Consider if the Leafs are just a tiny bit better in each of those two years. If Kessel had cost one of R.Johansen/N.Niederreiter/B.Connolly and J.Brodin/D.Siemens/R.Murphy instead of Seguin and Hamilton, would it really be a bad deal for the Leafs?

The goalie trades are brutal though, not even so much that they were dealt, but how badly the incoming talent was misjudged. They paid for one kind of goalie and got another, two times in a row to horribly debilitating results.


Last edited by satyr9: 01-29-2013 at 07:30 AM.
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01-29-2013, 07:29 AM
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Yosho
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It's amazing how sports "writers" can rehash the same crap every week and still continue to collect a paycheck.

We get it - some bad trades have taken place. Nothing about the article is interesting or newsworthy.

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01-29-2013, 07:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by forsberg View Post
What was the trade for Couture?
It wasn't for Couture exactly, the Sharks moved up and got him.

The 13th was Eller...not really a big loss.

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01-29-2013, 07:34 AM
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Toskala was prized by other teams after his first year here.

Ottawa tried to trade for Toskala as a Shark, and then again as a Leaf.

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01-29-2013, 07:34 AM
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Erik Estrada
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Bad trades are unforgiving in the salary cap era...


Last edited by Erik Estrada: 01-29-2013 at 08:11 AM.
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01-29-2013, 07:53 AM
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5 Games into the season. The Toronto media including,TSN,SPORTSNET,SUN,STAR, have for to long been a making a living from coming up with garbage articles about the leafs.

A win tonight,and the team sits in a play-off spot. These clowns have no respect from players,and its because they give none. What would the rational behind a story like this be?

any guess's?

If i own that team,i openly start patronizing the media in constructive manners. I would be blocking access too,just to annoy them. Call press conferences,and cancel them lol. lots of ways to screw them really. Make all your announcements on the road to USA networks lol.

I'd bend their minds in one season. They are idiots.

The season we all waited for,and waited for is five games in ,and all a writer can come up with is past trades? I mean come on! Openly drop names of media idiots. Like Burkie would.

They weren't so brave when they knew Burke was coming right back at them either.Thats one thing about his tenure here,this kind of crap was at a minimum.

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01-29-2013, 07:56 AM
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blasted_Sabre
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The Leafs pick was Eller, not Couture.

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01-29-2013, 08:03 AM
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satyr9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blasted_Sabre View Post
The Leafs pick was Eller, not Couture.
Except the Sharks got our 1st and 2nd in the Toskala deal and packaged them together to move up the 4 spots for Couture.

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01-29-2013, 08:08 AM
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Deebo
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Originally Posted by blasted_Sabre View Post
The Leafs pick was Eller, not Couture.
The sharks used the first and second they got from us to move up.

They used those assets to end up with Logan Couture and the Leafs used the same assets plus another pick and get Toskala and Bell who turn into literally nothing for the Leafs.

For whatever reason these moves were made and despite how many teams may have been interested in Toskala, the Leafs essentially threw away assets for nothing.

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01-29-2013, 08:11 AM
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I read the title of the article in the Star and thought, "Oh ****, here we go again...another hack writer with nothing better to write about than whatever negative from over the years they can dredge up"
No wonder Leaf fans spend their lives looking badly at the team...
There seem to be too many people trying to earn their living writing about sports...and certainly too few of them with any talent...
This isn't new (they used to write about that bum Lanny McDonald and tried to run him out of town in his first couple of years...similar to what Kadri has gotten)
Why not write abuot the successes of our Marlies?...about Junior prospects?...about the young Leafs (Kadri, JVR, Frattin, Komarov, Reimer) all getting their feet wet and trying to gain confidence and feel good about themselves...
The Media has/and is shaping the generation and their attitudes about this team...they could choose to present the positive...but that might require some writing talent...

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01-29-2013, 08:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueNero View Post
McGran is critical of many of the big trades we've made in the post-2005 lockout era. The point essentially comes down to: “What would the Leafs look like with Tuukka Rask, Logan Couture, Tyler Seguin and Dougie Hamilton?”

I'm not sure McGran's analysis is all that fair - even knowing how those trades worked out.

We have to remember that with Rask the problem was that we had two top goaltender prospects who were approaching NHL-readiness and we gambled on Pogge instead of Rask. I remember that at the time it seemed like the better bet - Pogge's stats were better and scouting reports suggested he was No. 1 material. And Raycroft had just come off a Calder-winning rookie season and one sketchy season. Running with Raycroft with Pogge as the backup for a few years seemed to make sense. But then Raycroft sucked, Pogge didn't work out and Rask ascended. Bad result, but not necessarily a bad gamble with the info we had at the time.

And with Kessel, it's easy to critisize the deal knowing that Seguin was the first pick, but nobody thought we were going to finish second last in the league that year. Even the Leaf-haters on TSN and the sports forecasters thought we'd crack the playoffs, so those picks should have been mid-level 1st rounders (think Austin Watson or Nick Bjugstad) rather than Seguin.

Point is, in hindsight all these deals looked bad, but it was a gamble to either make them or not and I'm not sure I would have made them any differently with the information our GMs had at the time they were made.

http://www.thestar.com/sports/leafs/...rtunities-lost
Gave away Tlustly, Steen, Coliacovo, Boyes (he did score 40) as well as a few others.

Hindsight is how all GMs are judged. As a GM you are supposed to have foresight.

Fletcher has been involved in sending Sundin packing and Steen -- for nothing. I have no idea why he is still a consultant. Two of the stupidest moves ever.

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01-29-2013, 08:18 AM
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forsberg
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deebo View Post
The sharks used the first and second they got from us to move up.

They used those assets to end up with Logan Couture and the Leafs used the same assets plus another pick and get Toskala and Bell who turn into literally nothing for the Leafs.

For whatever reason these moves were made and despite how many teams may have been interested in Toskala, the Leafs essentially threw away assets for nothing.
But knowing Leafs' scouting, even if they got the 9th pick they would've picked Hamill or Ellerby.

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01-29-2013, 08:28 AM
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LordRamsay
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Oh for.......

Is this article for real?

We didn't give away Boyes btw...at the time we traded for Nolan it was thought he was the final piece to get us over the top. Revisionist history.

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01-29-2013, 08:29 AM
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BlueNero
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Originally Posted by birddog View Post
Gave away Tlustly, Steen, Coliacovo, Boyes (he did score 40) as well as a few others.

Hindsight is how all GMs are judged. As a GM you are supposed to have foresight.

Fletcher has been involved in sending Sundin packing and Steen -- for nothing. I have no idea why he is still a consultant. Two of the stupidest moves ever.
Absolutely agree regarding Sundin. Thing is with the trades for picks is that you never know what you're actually going to get or lose. But with Sundin it was just pure incompetence. It's not like we traded him for assets that didn't work out - we just forced our best player and captain to walk out. With the young team we were building at the time Sundin could have had a big and useful influence on the new kids, which made him worth keeping even if he wasn't still an amazing player (which he was) who should have spent his twilight years in the city he loved playing for the team he loved.

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01-29-2013, 08:29 AM
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416Leafer
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Originally Posted by SprDaVE View Post
You win some, you lose some.

Many teams have these types of trades; Leafs are no exception.

We've had a few of them in the last couple years, maybe one too many, but we've also had a lot of good trades to make up for them.

These hypotheticals, in any situation, are going to make people commit suicide.
If that were the case, we'd have been a playoff team by now. In terms of looking at the net result of our trading over the last 5-7 years, we've clearly come out with the short end of the stick.

Yes getting Gardiner/Lupul/Phaneuf were good moves, but Rask/Seguin/Hamilton/etc are way better building blocks.

Hopefully Nonis puts his money where his mouth is and sticks to building through youth. I've liked his moves so far, limited though they may be.

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01-29-2013, 08:32 AM
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johnny_rudeboy
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It soon become a vicious circle for any GM trying to cover up for his own or the former GM´s mistakes. If you have a good core and a winning system in place you can afford one or two years of poor drafting and a couple of bad trades is not the end of the world then.
You still have your core and system to fall back on. With the Leafs, and many other organizations it is a constant gamble to try and catch up. Having a strong core also allow the franchise to keep prospects away from the line up so they can develop at their own pace away from the spot light. But if you are desperately trying to become competitive then players might be pushed forward to early and they stop developing since in a tougher environment like the NHL is, trying out new stuff is not the first thing that spring to young players mind. And once they crack the line up they are surrounded with good players and thus not have to carry a key role they cant master.

Imagine Schenn staying an extra year in juniors working on his foot speed and perhaps getting time on the PP to utilize his shot more, have another go with team Canada U20. Then a season in the AHL to make a smoother transitions to the big league. Physically and mentally he was ready for the NHL as an 18 year old but as a more complete player he was not. But the management needed some optimism, and what is not more optimistic then a young kid trying to send ever player he can catch through the boards?

And having a competent goalie is key for any team so I kind of understand the former GM´s trying to find one every way they could. Keeping Pooge instead of Rask was of course a blunder but perhaps Boston wanted him and would not do the deal if he was not dealt? We needed a started so what do you do?

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01-29-2013, 08:35 AM
  #23
Anthrax442
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Reading the Star is like trying to walk through a wall repeatedly. Nothing good comes out of them. You should have learnt it by now.

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01-29-2013, 08:35 AM
  #24
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If you take the Couture, Rask, Seguin, Hamilton approach...you have to forfeit the Gardiner, Lupul, Kessel, Phaneuf, Ashton(via Aulie trade), Biggs(via Versteeg trading) approach.

You can't have it both ways. Either you trade and take the risks, or you draft and play it safe.

Frankly we got more assets through trading, just saying....

Hell, Couture and Rask weren't even in Burke's tenure.

Its pretty clear Burke got more assets through trading then sitting on his hands and just drafting.

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01-29-2013, 08:38 AM
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any excuse to ***** about the leafs lol. even 10 years after a gm has been fired the media still *****es about the moves he made.

how come there are no articles about the good trades that have been made?

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