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McGran: Maple Leafs’ trades with Bruins, Sharks opportunities lost

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01-29-2013, 08:40 AM
  #26
416Leafer
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Originally Posted by A1LeafNation View Post
If you take the Couture, Rask, Seguin, Hamilton approach...you have to forfeit the Gardiner, Lupul, Kessel, Phaneuf, Ashton(via Aulie trade), Biggs(via Versteeg trading) approach.

You can't have it both ways. Either you trade and take the risks, or you draft and play it safe.

Frankly we got more assets through trading, just saying....

Hell, Couture and Rask weren't even in Burke's tenure.

Its pretty clear Burke got more assets through trading then sitting on his hands and just drafting.
I disagree.

You can't lump the Kaberle, Beauchemin, Phaneuf, etc trades in there, because they didn't involve us giving up any high potential youth.

When you're rebuilding, don't trade high picks, top prospects, etc. But you CAN sell off veterans, or trade depth guys (Stajan/White/Mayers/Hagman for example) to try and get an upgrade.

There's a pretty clear distinction between those types of trades vs trading two 1sts and a 2nd while rebuilding with terrible goaltending, vs trading away a top goalie prosect in Rask or trading a 1st/2nd/3rd for an unproven backup who had semi-reasonable stats on an absolutely stacked team, etc.

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01-29-2013, 08:41 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by ACC1224 View Post
Who is McGran?

How is his "analysis" any different than what's been spewed here over the years?
It isn't. He just gets paid for it.

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01-29-2013, 08:43 AM
  #28
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It isn't. He just gets paid for it.
Don't we all?

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01-29-2013, 08:44 AM
  #29
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Except the Sharks got our 1st and 2nd in the Toskala deal and packaged them together to move up the 4 spots for Couture.
Thats right. The sharks made a trade. Whos to say we do as well? Its a complete hypothetical and the chances greatly favour it not happening. Its poor thinking on the writers part just to make the Leafs look bad. Hes got plenty of material to work with without making crap up.

The other issue is that no one can assume we finish in the same places each year as the roster would be different. Do we finish so low with Rask in net? Assuming we finish a little better , how does the Kessel deal look with Neideriter (sp) and Ryan Murphy instead of Seguin and Hamilton?


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01-29-2013, 08:45 AM
  #30
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Problem is, a lot of the "reporters" become sports personalities on their own in a city like this, and fall too much in love in their own image. Cox, McCown, Dreger, Kypreos, McKenzie, Watters etc etc. Some we like more because they keep a lower profile, but some try too hard to elevate their own image, that they have to continuously feed their own ego for it to grow and overshadow the rest of the scene.

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01-29-2013, 08:46 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by 416Leafer View Post
I disagree.

You can't lump the Kaberle, Beauchemin, Phaneuf, etc trades in there, because they didn't involve us giving up any high potential youth.

When you're rebuilding, don't trade high picks, top prospects, etc. But you CAN sell off veterans, or trade depth guys (Stajan/White/Mayers/Hagman for example) to try and get an upgrade.

There's a pretty clear distinction between those types of trades vs trading two 1sts and a 2nd while rebuilding with terrible goaltending, vs trading away a top goalie prosect in Rask or trading a 1st/2nd/3rd for an unproven backup who had semi-reasonable stats on an absolutely stacked team, etc.
So you only count the trades to fit your argument...thats fair.

New flash, Leafs didn't trade Seguin or Hamilton, they traded picks.

All the trades were risks. All of them.

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01-29-2013, 08:48 AM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A1LeafNation View Post
So you only count the trades to fit your argument...thats fair.

New flash, Leafs didn't trade Seguin or Hamilton, they traded picks.

All the trades were risks. All of them.
And the discussion was about trading away picks. Not about trading away players for other players or picks. There is a difference there.

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01-29-2013, 08:51 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by A1LeafNation View Post
So you only count the trades to fit your argument...thats fair.

New flash, Leafs didn't trade Seguin or Hamilton, they traded picks.

All the trades were risks. All of them.
Not really. I'm not entirely convinced that the Kaberle trade is going to give us anything of value in the longrun, and it was included in the list of trades that wouldn't count as "risky". Because the player traded wasn't a player that the team thought was a core player longterm, so what exactly was the risk to the team 5 years down the line? Nothing. We traded Poni and I supported that, it looks like we got nothing out of that essentially (Caputi then traded for Deschamps).

I'm not only looking at trades that went well. I'm looking at high risk vs low risk trades. Trading away non-core players and trading away veteran players for futures or younger players are NOT risky. Trading away very high picks while rebuilding, trading away top prospects, etc. ARE risky.

Were Stajan, White, etc core players. Those types of players can be picked up in plural every single free agency. Trading them for a top pairing D? Again, no risk.

And yes, I'm aware we traded picks and not Hamilton/Seguin. Do you think those picks would have been higher or lower without Kessel on the team? Because unless Kessel literally contributes nothing over an 82 game season, then it's safe to assume they'd be either equal to where they were or higher.

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01-29-2013, 08:51 AM
  #34
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I think it's important to remember with the Kessel trade that a couple games either way would have dramatically changed.

Instead of starting 3-11-6 if they had started 7-9-4, or if instead of going 3-10-2 in January then went 6-7-2 the Bruins would have been drafting Niederreiter or Connolly.

If the Leafs hadn't lost their last 3 in 2011 the Bruins wouldn't have had Hamilton and instead would have had Siemens or Murphy or Brodin.

It's also worth nothing that the Leafs wouldn't have drafted Couture unless they also had traded with the Blues. We would have had Lars Eller

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01-29-2013, 08:55 AM
  #35
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We just don't need to go through all this again. It sucks as fans to see our club get dragged back multiple years into a rebuild as we really could have been a FAR superior team without those trades but hindsight, 20-20 blah blah. I never liked the Kessel or Toskala trades and for me the Dion/Kaberle trades don't even come close to making up for it. Beauchemin trade was the only awesome one, Phaneuf trade was decent but maybe I just don't have the love for him like so many of our fans do.

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01-29-2013, 08:56 AM
  #36
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Point is, stop gambling kids.

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01-29-2013, 08:56 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by ACC1224 View Post
Don't we all?
$10 for posts complaining about Kessel, $20 for posts criticizing Phaneuf. It's a tough job, but it's a living.

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01-29-2013, 08:58 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by hatterson View Post
I think it's important to remember with the Kessel trade that a couple games either way would have dramatically changed.

Instead of starting 3-11-6 if they had started 7-9-4, or if instead of going 3-10-2 in January then went 6-7-2 the Bruins would have been drafting Niederreiter or Connolly.

If the Leafs hadn't lost their last 3 in 2011 the Bruins wouldn't have had Hamilton and instead would have had Siemens or Murphy or Brodin.

It's also worth nothing that the Leafs wouldn't have drafted Couture unless they also had traded with the Blues. We would have had Lars Eller
So your argument is that if you subtract all the cold streaks from those seasons, the Bruins pick lower? ... right. And if you subtract the hot streaks, they pick even higher. That works both ways.

Also, if we kept the picks, where would we have drafted without Kessel? How many game winners did he have those years? How many could MacArthur have replaced playing as our top line winger? How many tying goals did Kessel have? etc.

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01-29-2013, 09:06 AM
  #39
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Unless Kessel sees some love, I can guarantee he won't stick around once he doesn't have to. Being linked with Seguin has ruined his experience in Toronto. He'll leave just like how Jimmy Carson left Edmonton because he couldn't handle being the guy they traded Gretzky for.

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01-29-2013, 09:08 AM
  #40
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Seguin and Rask are no brainer losses for us, but it was still highly probably even if we kept our picks, we would of selected Hamilton or Couture with the picks. Leafs scouting staff has given me enough confidence that we wouldn't be able to draft quality players like those.

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01-29-2013, 09:08 AM
  #41
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Originally Posted by A1LeafNation View Post
So you only count the trades to fit your argument...thats fair.

New flash, Leafs didn't trade Seguin or Hamilton, they traded picks.

All the trades were risks. All of them.

The Gardiner/Lupul for Beauchemin was not a similar risk because there was no chance Beauchemin would end up being anything other than Beauchemin. The Kaberle deal wasn't a risk because they had made the determination that they didn't want to bring him back so he would turn into nothing if they didn't move him.

The Kessel deal absolutely was a gigantic risk because you had a team that finished in 7th last the prior season and didn't add any high end talent apart from Kessel. He made an inaccurate assessment of his team leading up to that deal and as a result those picks ended up being top 10 picks.

There is no way you can say that the deals were equal in terms of risk.

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01-29-2013, 09:08 AM
  #42
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any excuse to ***** about the leafs lol. even 10 years after a gm has been fired the media still *****es about the moves he made.

how come there are no articles about the good trades that have been made?
Because those kinds of articles won't sell papers or generate hits to their website. Best way to get Leaf fans attention is to drag up the past blunders and constantly remind them of how long it's been since they've had a winning team to cheer for. It gets them angry and generates lots of talk about how things "should have been done".

Current results dont' help matters much either and timing of these articles go a long way to rubbing salt in the wounds so to speak. Why drag up the past when the team is doing well? Easier to wind everyone up after a few losses. It's definitely not rocket surgery!

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01-29-2013, 09:09 AM
  #43
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McGran is critical of many of the big trades we've made in the post-2005 lockout era. The point essentially comes down to: “What would the Leafs look like with Tuukka Rask, Logan Couture, Tyler Seguin and Dougie Hamilton?”

I'm not sure McGran's analysis is all that fair - even knowing how those trades worked out.

We have to remember that with Rask the problem was that we had two top goaltender prospects who were approaching NHL-readiness and we gambled on Pogge instead of Rask. I remember that at the time it seemed like the better bet - Pogge's stats were better and scouting reports suggested he was No. 1 material. And Raycroft had just come off a Calder-winning rookie season and one sketchy season. Running with Raycroft with Pogge as the backup for a few years seemed to make sense. But then Raycroft sucked, Pogge didn't work out and Rask ascended. Bad result, but not necessarily a bad gamble with the info we had at the time.

And with Kessel, it's easy to critisize the deal knowing that Seguin was the first pick, but nobody thought we were going to finish second last in the league that year. Even the Leaf-haters on TSN and the sports forecasters thought we'd crack the playoffs, so those picks should have been mid-level 1st rounders (think Austin Watson or Nick Bjugstad) rather than Seguin.

Point is, in hindsight all these deals looked bad, but it was a gamble to either make them or not and I'm not sure I would have made them any differently with the information our GMs had at the time they were made.

http://www.thestar.com/sports/leafs/...rtunities-lost
I still remember creating the thread when I first heard Rask was traded. I was absolutely livid.

The fact is that JFJ took a risk and it failed.

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01-29-2013, 09:10 AM
  #44
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Originally Posted by ACC1224 View Post
Who is McGran?

How is his "analysis" any different than what's been spewed here over the years?
My guess is the guy has been reading posts in this site, decided to put an article togeather based on his observations and finally take credit for the ideas as being both new (lol) and his own. Pointless read really for any HF poster.

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01-29-2013, 09:13 AM
  #45
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Rask was a brutal trade the second it happened. Anyone watching both goalies knew Rask had the higher ceiling. I was pissed off that day. I still consider it a billion times worse than the Kessel trade; as the Leafs should have had an idea what they were giving up.

The Kessel trade is overblown; the Leafs didn't trade Seguin or Hamilton (who gives a crap about Knight). They didn't even trade a 2nd and 9th Overall Pick. They traded two 1st rounders; that was the only "known" part of the deal at the time. The Leafs were not expected to bottom out; especially not with Kessel. A lot of unforeseen circumstances arose. I have no problem with this trade; most people who do, overlook that we actually have Kessel (a damn good consistent scorer). They say: "The Leafs lost Seguin and Hamilton"; that is their whole outlook.

Also, if Hamilton was the second coming of Christ; why isn't anyone blasting the teams that didn't take this "Future Norris Winner"?

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01-29-2013, 09:13 AM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Deebo View Post

The Kessel deal absolutely was a gigantic risk because you had a team that finished in 7th last the prior season and didn't add any high end talent apart from Kessel. He made an inaccurate assessment of his team leading up to that deal and as a result those picks ended up being top 10 picks.

There is no way you can say that the deals were equal in terms of risk.
The team also subtracted Antropov, Moore, and Kubina. So our previously best forward, another one of our top forwards, and our #1 D were all out the door compared to the previous season.

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01-29-2013, 09:15 AM
  #47
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Unless Kessel sees some love, I can guarantee he won't stick around once he doesn't have to. Being linked with Seguin has ruined his experience in Toronto. He'll leave just like how Jimmy Carson left Edmonton because he couldn't handle being the guy they traded Gretzky for.
I can see him walking just to get away from all of this if I were him, it's exactly what I would do to start with a clean slate.

Why stay here? I'd play for New York Rangers --seems like the best destination for NHL players especially if you have money: big city, nightlife, privacy outside of hockey, etc..

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01-29-2013, 09:17 AM
  #48
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These threads and articles are useless crap that bring about nothing but trolling on leafs nation, and in-fighting amongst us. I hate this ****.

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01-29-2013, 09:17 AM
  #49
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I still remember creating the thread when I first heard Rask was traded. I was absolutely livid.

The fact is that JFJ took a risk and it failed.
I agree; it was definitely seen as a brutal trade the second it happened. They had two strong goalies; a position they have struggled with; then they get rid of their best option for a huge risk in Raycroft.

Incredibly dumb.

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01-29-2013, 09:21 AM
  #50
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10 worst trades in Toronto Maple Leafs history
Reprinting the post in honour of the NHL trading deadline. Let's hope Brian Burke doesn't add to the list.

Quote:
10. Tuukka Rask to Boston for Andrew Raycroft (2006)

9. Fredrick Modin to Tampa Bay for Corey Cross (2001)

8. Larry Murphy to Detroit for future considerations (1997)
Some of us have lived them all.

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