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McGran: Maple Leafs’ trades with Bruins, Sharks opportunities lost

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01-29-2013, 09:22 AM
  #51
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Originally Posted by BayStreetBully View Post
Unless Kessel sees some love, I can guarantee he won't stick around once he doesn't have to. Being linked with Seguin has ruined his experience in Toronto. He'll leave just like how Jimmy Carson left Edmonton because he couldn't handle being the guy they traded Gretzky for.
Yep, and once Kessel bolts from here, we'll be whining about having no one to replace him.

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01-29-2013, 09:22 AM
  #52
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Rask was a brutal trade the second it happened. Anyone watching both goalies knew Rask had the higher ceiling. I was pissed off that day. I still consider it a billion times worse than the Kessel trade; as the Leafs should have had an idea what they were giving up.

The Kessel trade is overblown; the Leafs didn't trade Seguin or Hamilton (who gives a crap about Knight). They didn't even trade a 2nd and 9th Overall Pick. They traded two 1st rounders; that was the only "known" part of the deal at the time. The Leafs were not expected to bottom out; especially not with Kessel. A lot of unforeseen circumstances arose. I have no problem with this trade; most people who do, overlook that we actually have Kessel (a damn good consistent scorer). They say: "The Leafs lost Seguin and Hamilton"; that is their whole outlook.

Also, if Hamilton was the second coming of Christ; why isn't anyone blasting the teams that didn't take this "Future Norris Winner"?
Now now. No one is saying he's Jesus...he's just a cross between Rob Blake and Ray Bourque, the second coming of Bobby Orr...anyone who doesn't see that is more of a leaf homer than Paul Hendrick.

Tyler Seguin is a perennial 90 point centre too. (Glen Healey actually uttered this incoherent sentence yesterday on the Jeff Blair show).

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01-29-2013, 09:24 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Wendelsmustache View Post
Oh for.......

Is this article for real?

We didn't give away Boyes btw...at the time we traded for Nolan it was thought he was the final piece to get us over the top. Revisionist history.
Not only did the Leafs give away a 40 goal scorer in Boyes, something that Phil Kessel hasn't even been able to accomplish yet, but also our 1st round pick in the 2003 draft was an opportunity lost to draft Cory Perry, Mike Richards, Shea Weber, Patrice Bergeron, Ryan Kesler etc etc. all still on the board when the Leafs picked.

The Nolan trade was actually a turning point but rather then helping the Leafs its ending up hurting them even to this day based on lost opportunity lost. But that is also based on 20/20 hindsight based on being a mistake today in reflection much like all bad trades are.

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01-29-2013, 09:27 AM
  #54
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Not only did the Leafs give away a 40 goal scorer in Boyes, something that Phil Kessel hasn't even been able to accomplish yet, but also our 1st round pick in the 2003 draft was an opportunity lost to draft Cory Perry, Mike Richards, Shea Weber, Patrice Bergeron, Ryan Kesler etc etc. all still on the board when the Leafs picked.

The Nolan trade was actually a turning point but rather then helping the Leafs its ending up hurting them even to this day based on lost opportunity lost. But that is also based on 20/20 hindsight based on being a mistake today in reflection much like all bad trades are.
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3. Bernie Parent and a 2nd Round Pick in 1973 (Larry Goodenough) to the Philadelphia for a 1st Round Pick in 1973 (Bob Neely) and Future Considerations (Doug Favell) (1973)
Rask going to be a HOF goalie?

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01-29-2013, 09:29 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Diamond Joe Quimby View Post
Now now. No one is saying he's Jesus...he's just a cross between Rob Blake and Ray Bourque, the second coming of Bobby Orr...anyone who doesn't see that is more of a leaf homer than Paul Hendrick.

Tyler Seguin is a perennial 90 point centre too. (Glen Healey actually uttered this incoherent sentence yesterday on the Jeff Blair show).
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1. 1st Round Pick in 1991 to the New Jersey Devils for Tom Kurvers (1989)
Kessel deal doesn't even make top 10 worst trades. Yet.

http://thecurseoffrankmahovlich.blog...ple-leafs.html

Kessel would have to leave as UFA for that to happen.

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01-29-2013, 09:31 AM
  #56
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It's pretty unfair hindsight to say these trades are okay, these are bad, how good would we be if we'd just, etc...

Instead, take the current roster and judge it against the last 15 years of of the first 2 rounds of picks if the Leafs had never traded any of them. Yes there are occasional later round finds, but let's assume the leafs had committed to building through the draft and retaining those players and only what could be reasonably relied upon. Would prefer what we have now or this:

A.Steen-T.Seguin-L.Eller
N.Kulemin-N.Kadri-M.Cammalleri
N.Antropov-C.Wilson-B.Boyes
J.Tlusty-M.Stajan-J.Knight

C.Colaiacovo-D.Hamilton
M.Reilly-M.Clark
M.Stuart-M.Sauer

T.Raask
J.Gibson

That leaves M.Finn in development (obviously in real life you'd probably have some FA somethings to shore up things like the defense and leave Gibson and Reilly and Knight and some others in the minors) and you've missed on K.Wharton, I.Huml, L.Cereda, A.Palushaj, K.Chucko, P.Reynolds, R.Josi, J.Doherty, and P.Svoboda.

I don't really know the point of this, but basically if you compare value of that squad to the current Leafs, I'm not really all that impressed by what you get in the draft for the last 15 years of Leafs history. That's not really meant as supportive of how the Leafs have traded/drafted/signed in the last 15 years either, but I think you can see that to turn bad years into good teams, a GM extracting value through trades and signings is insanely important to building a winner. The draft alone, even if you're bad, is not a panacea.

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01-29-2013, 09:41 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by satyr9 View Post
Except the Sharks got our 1st and 2nd in the Toskala deal and packaged them together to move up the 4 spots for Couture.
What makes you think that the Leafs would've done the same? Even if they did it doesn't change the fact that Lars Eller was picked with the 13th overall selection which belonged to the Leafs.

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01-29-2013, 09:42 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by satyr9 View Post
It's pretty unfair hindsight to say these trades are okay, these are bad, how good would we be if we'd just, etc...
.
No, it is fair. As long as you say that any trades involving trading high-end youth/prospects/picks wouldn't be allowed, whereas any trades involving known quantities (from our side) that weren't considered part of a longterm core would be allowed.

This still gives the Leafs a few trades that didn't work out, this is being objective and non-biased. Antropov, Moore, and Poni for example were all traded. I think the return is something like Kenny Ryan, Jesse Blacker, and Deschamps... not exactly anything to write home about.

But it also includes Beauchemin (older veteran, known quantity traded for a top prospect + younger top 6 forward, therefore meets criteria), Phaneuf (we traded known quantities and non-core pieces in Stajan/White/Mayers/Hagman for a young(ish) top pairing D, therefore meets criteria), Kaberle (older veteran, known quantity), etc.

The Rask/Raycroft, Toskala, and Kessel deals absolutely would not have been done, because they involved sending high picks or prospects.

You CAN differentiate between trades that sent high-risk pieces from our end vs trades that sent known quantities that weren't part of the longterm core. It's really not at all difficult.

Trades where we sent known quantities, some have worked out, and some haven't. Trades where we sent top prospects/picks? Essentially every single one has backfired since the previous lockout.

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01-29-2013, 09:43 AM
  #59
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Well the media rehashing negativity over the Leafs isn't anything new unfortunately.

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01-29-2013, 09:51 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by The Blue Devil View Post
What makes you think that the Leafs would've done the same? Even if they did it doesn't change the fact that Lars Eller was picked with the 13th overall selection which belonged to the Leafs.
Not saying they would have, but they traded the value of Couture's pick for Toskala. That SJ did well with that value and used it on Couture instead of Eller and Palushaj isn't a bad reflection on the Leafs, but when one trade moved both pieces that acquired something else, I think it's worth noting. Cutting off the discussion with the first for Toskala would've been Eller to defend that the pick wasn't straight up Couture, when it also included the 2nd which was packaged to move up and get Couture, seems disingenuous(sic?) to me. Really, I think it's a fair enough point either way.

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01-29-2013, 10:02 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Diamond Joe Quimby View Post
Now now. No one is saying he's Jesus...he's just a cross between Rob Blake and Ray Bourque, the second coming of Bobby Orr...anyone who doesn't see that is more of a leaf homer than Paul Hendrick.

Tyler Seguin is a perennial 90 point centre too. (Glen Healey actually uttered this incoherent sentence yesterday on the Jeff Blair show).
What I wouldn't give to punch that back stabbing fat head piece of **** right in the mouth. He owes MLSE millions for carrying his no-talent, trash talking useless ass for years. He had about 3 years of extra NHL play because of us. Then after his career, he is on the ground floor for LeafsTV and starts off his broadcasting career here as another gift. What does he do to repay the organization? Constantly trash and belittle everything they do.

Ya go ahead and make fun of the trade. Call Seguin a perennial 90 pointer. Did he mention that Kessel has the talent to be a perennial 90 pt, 50 goal player with the same support as Seguin? **** no! Piece of ****!

I don't usually go on a tirade, but this ungrateful parasite deserves a straight right to the chin courtesy of one Colton Orr.

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Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
Kessel deal doesn't even make top 10 worst trades. Yet.

http://thecurseoffrankmahovlich.blog...ple-leafs.html

Kessel would have to leave as UFA for that to happen.
Lets not forget that Kessel is still the most talented player in the deal. We didn't get scraps for those picks. If he had the support that Seguin had, he'd push 100 pts.

We would no doubt be better off in the future with Seguin and Hamilton, but Kessel is still a superstar. Plunk him on a line with Roberts and Sundin, or Mogilny and Sundin, and your watching him chase the Art Ross, year after year.

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01-29-2013, 10:07 AM
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If we had Seguin and assuming the Leafs picked Hamilton, do you all
really think it would make us Stanley Cup contenders? My answer is no.

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01-29-2013, 10:09 AM
  #63
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If we had Seguin and assuming the Leafs picked Hamilton, do you all
really think it would make us Stanley Cup contenders? My answer is no.
No, but still a better overall team.

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01-29-2013, 10:13 AM
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What I wouldn't give to punch that back stabbing fat head piece of **** right in the mouth. He owes MLSE millions for carrying his no-talent, trash talking useless ass for years. He had about 3 years of extra NHL play because of us. Then after his career, he is on the ground floor for LeafsTV and starts off his broadcasting career here as another gift. What does he do to repay the organization? Constantly trash and belittle everything they do.

Ya go ahead and make fun of the trade. Call Seguin a perennial 90 pointer. Did he mention that Kessel has the talent to be a perennial 90 pt, 50 goal player with the same support as Seguin? **** no! Piece of ****!

I don't usually go on a tirade, but this ungrateful parasite deserves a straight right to the chin courtesy of one Colton Orr.
Bingo.

Healy's a nobody, a never-was who somehow managed to land a TV job. And to hear him use the word "perennial'... What would Healy know about that?

What's even funnier is when he criticizes the goaltending. Kind of ironic since he sucked bag playing in net.

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01-29-2013, 10:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Due North View Post
If we had Seguin and assuming the Leafs picked Hamilton, do you all
really think it would make us Stanley Cup contenders? My answer is no.
If Boston offered Seguin and Hamilton for Kessel today, would you take it?

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01-29-2013, 10:15 AM
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Bingo.

Healy's a nobody, a never-was who somehow managed to land a TV job. And to hear him use the word "perennial'... What would Healy know about that?

What's even funnier is when he criticizes the goaltending. Kind of ironic since he sucked bag playing in net.
So many people on this forum criticize players that are much better than they ever were.

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01-29-2013, 10:18 AM
  #67
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Cap'n hindsight strikes again.

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01-29-2013, 10:21 AM
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Seguin, Hamilton, Knight, Couture, and Rask

or

Kessel, Raycroft, and Toskala

This thread is like a very painful memory. It's best to just try to forget and move on.

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01-29-2013, 10:26 AM
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Originally Posted by 416Leafer View Post
No, it is fair. As long as you say that any trades involving trading high-end youth/prospects/picks wouldn't be allowed, whereas any trades involving known quantities (from our side) that weren't considered part of a longterm core would be allowed.

This still gives the Leafs a few trades that didn't work out, this is being objective and non-biased. Antropov, Moore, and Poni for example were all traded. I think the return is something like Kenny Ryan, Jesse Blacker, and Deschamps... not exactly anything to write home about.

But it also includes Beauchemin (older veteran, known quantity traded for a top prospect + younger top 6 forward, therefore meets criteria), Phaneuf (we traded known quantities and non-core pieces in Stajan/White/Mayers/Hagman for a young(ish) top pairing D, therefore meets criteria), Kaberle (older veteran, known quantity), etc.

The Rask/Raycroft, Toskala, and Kessel deals absolutely would not have been done, because they involved sending high picks or prospects.

You CAN differentiate between trades that sent high-risk pieces from our end vs trades that sent known quantities that weren't part of the longterm core. It's really not at all difficult.

Trades where we sent known quantities, some have worked out, and some haven't. Trades where we sent top prospects/picks? Essentially every single one has backfired since the previous lockout.
I agree with you, insofar as you can evaluate the philosophical viewpoint that leads to mistakes and good trades and I 100% agree that there's an identifiable pattern for what to do and not in the future. The issue I have with this selectivity is when you then start forecasting the club that would be put together with the good instead of the bad. If Raask is Raask and Couture is Couture, there's probably no opportunity to draft Seguin. In fact, if the same trade existed for Kessel with those guys in the core, it'd likely be an enormous win for BB as BOS got pretty much perfect value for what they thought they were getting for 2 firsts. If you've got Couture developing beside Kessel instead of Bozak and Raask instead of Jonas/Reimer.

So it's 100% fair, and we're in agreement to say that where mistakes are made are trading high value prospect material (future unprotected 1sts being most common), especially with an unsettled and unproven club. Where I see it being unfair is when you play the revisionist history game and start taking back all the mistake trades and then keeping the future opportunities they created (trading Raask gave the Leafs a lot of high picks thanks to the suckitude of Pogge, Raycroft, Toskala, et al.) That in no shape or form defends Leafs management, but to not point it out really compounds their errors into making it seem they've thrown away a guaranteed championship calibre roster, which they haven't. Keeping the first valuable piece makes picking up the subsequent ones harder. That's not to say it shouldn't be possible, but the proper 2005 goalie retained would impact the 2010 draft.

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01-29-2013, 10:27 AM
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You can pick the two or three worst trades of the 29 other teams in the league and do the exact same thing.
Except 29 other teams have made the playoffs in the past 10 years.

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01-29-2013, 10:27 AM
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So your argument is that if you subtract all the cold streaks from those seasons, the Bruins pick lower? ... right. And if you subtract the hot streaks, they pick even higher. That works both ways.

Also, if we kept the picks, where would we have drafted without Kessel? How many game winners did he have those years? How many could MacArthur have replaced playing as our top line winger? How many tying goals did Kessel have? etc.
No, my point is the difference between picking Seguin and Niederreiter or Connolly was a couple games over the course of a season. And the difference between Hamilton and Siemens/Murphy/Brodin was a couple bounces in OT one way or another.

In Seguin's year, the Oilers were the worst team that year by a long shot. The Leafs were the second worst, but the distance between them and the Isles, Jackets, Panthers, etc. wasn't that huge.

In Hamilton's year the Leafs were in a heap of teams separated by a few points either way.

Sure those trades could be viewed as missed opportunities, but to say we'd have Seguin and Hamilton is facetious at best.

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01-29-2013, 10:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Due North View Post
If we had Seguin and assuming the Leafs picked Hamilton, do you all
really think it would make us Stanley Cup contenders? My answer is no.
Definitely not. I also don't think Seguin would be as good yet. Isn't it nice having Lucic as a winger? Or Chara as a partner? Or Rask and Thomas as your goalie?


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No, but still a better overall team.
In the long run, yes. But not yet. Those two wouldn't be a lot of help right now. We'd still be top 3 in drafting, which obviously isn't a bad thing if your patient. But we should've been bottom 3 from 2008-2012. Now we may be for another 2 or 3 years, barring a good goalie trade. And will that trade get a sour grapes thread?

I'm thinking Nonis will let the team decide. I don't think he will make drastic trades to jump in the standings. He doesn't operate with the same ego Burke had.

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If Boston offered Seguin and Hamilton for Kessel today, would you take it?

Those 2 together are obviously better then Kessel, but not individually yet.

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01-29-2013, 10:31 AM
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For the record though, the Raycroft, Toskala, and Kessel trades don't hold a candle to these gems from the 80's...

Leafs trade first round pick to NJ for Tom Kurvers, NJ ends up drafting Scott Neidermayer

Leafs trade Russ Courtnall to Montreal for John Kordic

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01-29-2013, 10:35 AM
  #74
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Logan Couture??

The Toronto media never lets facts get in the way of a good troll piece.

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01-29-2013, 10:44 AM
  #75
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No, my point is the difference between picking Seguin and Niederreiter or Connolly was a couple games over the course of a season. And the difference between Hamilton and Siemens/Murphy/Brodin was a couple bounces in OT one way or another.

In Seguin's year, the Oilers were the worst team that year by a long shot. The Leafs were the second worst, but the distance between them and the Isles, Jackets, Panthers, etc. wasn't that huge.

In Hamilton's year the Leafs were in a heap of teams separated by a few points either way.

Sure those trades could be viewed as missed opportunities, but to say we'd have Seguin and Hamilton is facetious at best.

I agree.

Scenario: Leafs don't deal for Kessel

So without using picks the Leafs just go with the line up they had.

Did Kessel make the team better or worse?

I'll go with the made the team better, since the option likely would not have been a 30 goals scorer.

So the Leafs would be picking no worse than 2nd. overall.

So Seguin in the bank.

Next season is Kessel better than the rookie Seguin? D'ohhh. And since we're keeping prospects and not dealing for older players scratch Versteeg and go with Stalberg. So rather than Kessel and Versteeg we're looking at Stalberg and Sequin in the line up. Kessel was leading scorer.

Results ... worse than 9th. worst. Probably a top 5 pick.

Next season still no Kessel, and Seguin is a 2nd. year player.

This is where it gets tougher, is Kessel better than Seguin still and if so the Leafs are drafting where? Rather than 5th. where?

So are we really comparing having Seguin, Hamilton, Rielly or are we looking at Seguin, Landeskog, Galchenyuk?

Now it could be that Kessel did not make the team any better, so perhaps the picks would have been worse.

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