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McGran: Maple Leafs’ trades with Bruins, Sharks opportunities lost

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01-29-2013, 10:50 AM
  #76
Deebo
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Originally Posted by Volcanologist View Post
Logan Couture??

The Toronto media never lets facts get in the way of a good troll piece.
The fact is San Jose used the exact same assets that Toronto used to get Bell and Toskala while San Jose used them to acquire a useful player like Couture.

You could say that Toronto probably wouldn't have made the same deal to move up which is kind of the point. They used the assets in a foolish deal instead.

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01-29-2013, 10:51 AM
  #77
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Kessel > Seguin.

Screw the what ifs, and wait untils, I'm talking about now. Kessel is the best player in that deal. People say "oh imagine if we had Seguin" then who would be his winger? "Oh man imagine if we had Kessel" then, but who'd be his center. We just have holes, simple as that.

Only reason people hate that trade is because of potential. If you are down in the dumps with that trade now, wait until that potential is met, IF it is met. Kessel is known, Seguin was a hot commodity last year, Hamilton hasn't played a season yet to even see how he is.

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01-29-2013, 10:52 AM
  #78
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It's funny that a lot of people on these boards will say "yeah well hindsight is 20/20" when a lot of us have been criticizing those deals the day they happen. Pro sports isn't that complicated. If minor league journeymen thug with 2 brain cells left in their heads can be a GM, I'm pretty sure a lot of us can be one too and do a better job.

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01-29-2013, 10:52 AM
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
I agree.

Scenario: Leafs don't deal for Kessel

So without using picks the Leafs just go with the line up they had.

Did Kessel make the team better or worse?

I'll go with the made the team better, since the option likely would not have been a 30 goals scorer.

So the Leafs would be picking no worse than 2nd. overall.

So Seguin in the bank.

Next season is Kessel better than the rookie Seguin? D'ohhh. And since we're keeping prospects and not dealing for older players scratch Versteeg and go with Stalberg. So rather than Kessel and Versteeg we're looking at Stalberg and Sequin in the line up. Kessel was leading scorer.

Results ... worse than 9th. worst. Probably a top 5 pick.

Next season still no Kessel, and Seguin is a 2nd. year player.

This is where it gets tougher, is Kessel better than Seguin still and if so the Leafs are drafting where? Rather than 5th. where?

So are we really comparing having Seguin, Hamilton, Rielly or are we looking at Seguin, Landeskog, Galchenyuk?

Now it could be that Kessel did not make the team any better, so perhaps the picks would have been worse.
Landeskog-Galchenyuk-Seguin

Damn. Now that's a line. It has basically everything.

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01-29-2013, 10:55 AM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deebo View Post
The fact is San Jose used the exact same assets that Toronto used to get Bell and Toskala while San Jose used them to acquire a useful player like Couture.

You could say that Toronto probably wouldn't have made the same deal to move up which is kind of the point. They used the assets in a foolish deal instead.
The fact is actually that the article is trying to imply the Leafs lost Logan Couture in the Toskala trade when that is not the case.

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01-29-2013, 10:56 AM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
It's funny that a lot of people on these boards will say "yeah well hindsight is 20/20" when a lot of us have been criticizing those deals the day they happen. Pro sports isn't that complicated. If minor league journeymen thug with 2 brain cells left in their heads can be a GM, I'm pretty sure a lot of us can be one too and do a better job.
I'd say about 90% of the posters on this board think this, and unfortunately, I'm not quite sure I agree.

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01-29-2013, 10:58 AM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brewsky View Post
Kessel > Seguin.

Screw the what ifs, and wait untils, I'm talking about now. Kessel is the best player in that deal. People say "oh imagine if we had Seguin" then who would be his winger? "Oh man imagine if we had Kessel" then, but who'd be his center. We just have holes, simple as that.

Only reason people hate that trade is because of potential. If you are down in the dumps with that trade now, wait until that potential is met, IF it is met. Kessel is known, Seguin was a hot commodity last year, Hamilton hasn't played a season yet to even see how he is.
By that logic, Matt Stajan > Nathan MacKinnon, because afterall, he's just potential.

Potential has value. It's not an exact science, but it can be estimated fairly well, especially at this stage in their development.

Pretending potential doesn't hold value is just acting ignorant. If that were the case, we should literally trade every single pick and prospect we have.

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01-29-2013, 11:02 AM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 416Leafer View Post
By that logic, Matt Stajan > Nathan MacKinnon, because afterall, he's just potential.

Potential has value. It's not an exact science, but it can be estimated fairly well, especially at this stage in their development.

Pretending potential doesn't hold value is just acting ignorant. If that were the case, we should literally trade every single pick and prospect we have.
But it's not about value. It's about real stats and worth. Seguin would be nowhere near as good with Mac and Lupul as his wingers. Or on a wing for Grabovski.

Seguin has the benefit of one of the deepest teams in the league with what most consider the toughest top 6. It's a lot easier for a prospect to realize his potential as a star player when his role players are Lucic and Horton. He has Bergeron and Krejci doing the most important defensive assignments. Chara behind him and Rask/Thomas behind Chara.

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01-29-2013, 11:06 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by TmlHockeyFan View Post
No, but still a better overall team.
A better overall team in which way ? Unless Seguin becomes a 50 - 60 goal scorer,
how would he make a difference? Hamilton has played half of his games on a small
ice surface in the OHL. Any 6'5" kid will seem like a monster playing on a tiny ice pad.
He didn't help Niagara last year or Team Canada win gold. You just don't know.
Boston thinks he the second comming of Bobby Orr because he's a Bruin. If both
Seguin and Hamilton were with the Leafs, they would say they are no good.

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01-29-2013, 11:09 AM
  #85
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How is this even an article in 2013? Is every Toronto based writer a hack nowadays?

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01-29-2013, 11:10 AM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Volcanologist View Post
The fact is actually that the article is trying to imply the Leafs lost Logan Couture in the Toskala trade when that is not the case.
What I said were facts too, maybe not what the article was saying but the Leafs did lose out on any chance to draft him by making a foolish deal.

Maybe St. Louis approached San Jose to move down and would have approached us instead?

We don't know what would have happened for sure if JFJ hadn't traded those picks, but we do know that those picks ended up being massive wastes. Wasted on someone that bombed here and was then traded away less than 3 years later for someone who wasn't retained as a UFA season later.

The Leafs have nothing to show for the assets involved in that trade while San Jose has Couture, St. Louis has Halak and even Montreal has Eller.

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01-29-2013, 11:12 AM
  #87
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Originally Posted by SprDaVE View Post
You win some, you lose some.

Many teams have these types of trades; Leafs are no exception.

We've had a few of them in the last couple years, maybe one too many, but we've also had a lot of good trades to make up for them.

These hypotheticals, in any situation, are going to make people commit suicide.
unfortunately the leafs lose a lot more of these than they win.

that's why they lose a lot more games than they win.

its all about terrible decisions and bad asset management. its interesting to look back on and see why the team continues to be lousy.

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01-29-2013, 11:13 AM
  #88
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how would the leafs look without Lupul n Gardiner and Beauchemin instead? Hindsight is 20/20

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01-29-2013, 11:15 AM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brewsky View Post
Kessel > Seguin.

Screw the what ifs, and wait untils, I'm talking about now. Kessel is the best player in that deal. People say "oh imagine if we had Seguin" then who would be his winger? "Oh man imagine if we had Kessel" then, but who'd be his center. We just have holes, simple as that.

Only reason people hate that trade is because of potential. If you are down in the dumps with that trade now, wait until that potential is met, IF it is met. Kessel is known, Seguin was a hot commodity last year, Hamilton hasn't played a season yet to even see how he is.
This is absolutely true. The only reason people talk about these trades so much is because we suck. If we were a good team no one would care.

Look at the good teams in the league. They've all traded away plenty of good players. Think of the Blue Jays. We traded away Jeff Kent for half a season of David Cone. But nobody gives a crap because we won.

The lesson is you can't do things half way. You either go all in or you don't.

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01-29-2013, 11:15 AM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Diamond Joe Quimby View Post
I'd say about 90% of the posters on this board think this, and unfortunately, I'm not quite sure I agree.
At the very least, I don't think 90% of the board would have gone out and rattled the hornet's nest that was the Kessel situation. Without Kessel, we probably draft first overall in 2010, and another bottom 7 finish in 2011.

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01-29-2013, 11:17 AM
  #91
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Originally Posted by MrLegend28 View Post
how would the leafs look without Lupul n Gardiner and Beauchemin instead? Hindsight is 20/20
How would the Leafs have looked with a couple of cap circumvention gems on the roster?

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01-29-2013, 11:29 AM
  #92
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So unbelievably sick of Media outlets bringing this up, had we not made this picks who knows where we would have picked.. hindsight is always 20/20.

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01-29-2013, 11:31 AM
  #93
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Originally Posted by 416Leafer View Post
By that logic, Matt Stajan > Nathan MacKinnon, because afterall, he's just potential.

Potential has value. It's not an exact science, but it can be estimated fairly well, especially at this stage in their development.

Pretending potential doesn't hold value is just acting ignorant. If that were the case, we should literally trade every single pick and prospect we have.
you're 100% right. this argument comes up all the time when people don't know what else to say.

the notion that any current nhler is better and has more value than any current non-nhler or prospect is nonsense.

if we use the logic that brewsky wants to judge the kessel trade on, we'd screw the "what ifs" and "wait untils" and we'd trade morgan rielly right now for any current nhl defenceman. morgan rielly to montreal for tomas kaberle. that'd be a good trade for the leafs.

surely we're all a little more advanced in our thinking than that.

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01-29-2013, 11:35 AM
  #94
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Originally Posted by Leaf Army View Post
This is absolutely true. The only reason people talk about these trades so much is because we suck. If we were a good team no one would care.

Look at the good teams in the league. They've all traded away plenty of good players. Think of the Blue Jays. We traded away Jeff Kent for half a season of David Cone. But nobody gives a crap because we won.
that's absolutely true. the goal is to have a good team and actually win.

the goal isn't to have great individual players on the team, or players who we think are great. its all about winning.

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01-29-2013, 11:38 AM
  #95
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Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
It's funny that a lot of people on these boards will say "yeah well hindsight is 20/20" when a lot of us have been criticizing those deals the day they happen. Pro sports isn't that complicated. If minor league journeymen thug with 2 brain cells left in their heads can be a GM, I'm pretty sure a lot of us can be one too and do a better job.
Not me, those guys work way too hard.

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01-29-2013, 11:40 AM
  #96
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Not me, those guys work way too hard.
I doubt even 1% of the people on this board would make a successful NHL GM.

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01-29-2013, 11:43 AM
  #97
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Originally Posted by Deebo View Post
I doubt even 1% of the people on this board would make a successful NHL GM.
i wouldn't say that. generally people who work in the hockey industry are not very bright.

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01-29-2013, 11:53 AM
  #98
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The trades theoretically werent terrible at the time they were made (save Rask for Raycroft), we have just learned the hard way that you simply cannot afford to trade young, controllable assets or high draft picks in the salary cap era because your best time to compete is when your best players are either still on ELC's, or on their RFA deal, not trading for guys that can ask for a big payday or already have one.

Fletcher didn't realize this and traded Steen and Coliacovo for Stempniak, who made as much as those two combined cap-wise, maybe more. Burke made this mistake too, a couple times. JFJ was just horrendous, nuff said.

Hopefully Nonis realizes this, and stays the youth course of young and controllable assets.

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01-29-2013, 11:55 AM
  #99
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you're 100% right. this argument comes up all the time when people don't know what else to say.

the notion that any current nhler is better and has more value than any current non-nhler or prospect is nonsense.

if we use the logic that brewsky wants to judge the kessel trade on, we'd screw the "what ifs" and "wait untils" and we'd trade morgan rielly right now for any current nhl defenceman. morgan rielly to montreal for tomas kaberle. that'd be a good trade for the leafs.

surely we're all a little more advanced in our thinking than that.
That wasn't the logic he used. He was very specific. Kessel>Seguin.

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01-29-2013, 11:58 AM
  #100
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i wouldn't say that. generally people who work in the hockey industry are not very bright.
and generally people who post on these boards don't have law degrees from Harvard.

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