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McGran: Maple Leafs’ trades with Bruins, Sharks opportunities lost

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01-29-2013, 11:58 AM
  #101
ACC1224
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Originally Posted by Deebo View Post
I doubt even 1% of the people on this board would make a successful NHL GM.
You're being generous.

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01-29-2013, 12:01 PM
  #102
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I'm going to sound parnanoid but Mcgran stole my Boston is an excellent model franchise for the Leafs to learn from in this article. Brought it a couple of nights ago?

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01-29-2013, 12:01 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by egd27 View Post
That wasn't the logic he used. He was very specific. Kessel>Seguin.
that was the logic he used. he specifically said screw the "what ifs" and the "wait untils", its all about "right now" in his world.

any current nhler is better and more valuable than any current non-nhler. that was the logic he used.

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01-29-2013, 12:04 PM
  #104
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God I love tracking this trade:

1. Kessel is the best player ever yes - who cares about picks - they probably won't even pan out.
2. Sequin/Hamilton are selected - who cares their probably both busts - were gonna win a cup soon and they'll be just minor leaguers
3. Sequin wins cup - Becomes All-Star - who cares Kessel is an all-star too - plus Hamilton will probably never make the NHL - so were winning
4. Hamilton makes Bruins lineup - playing Top Pairing with Chara ...


I can't wait until Kessel is gone so we can turn the page on this horrid period of time in Leaf History.

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01-29-2013, 12:11 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by leafspring View Post
5 Games into the season. The Toronto media including,TSN,SPORTSNET,SUN,STAR, have for to long been a making a living from coming up with garbage articles about the leafs.

A win tonight,and the team sits in a play-off spot. These clowns have no respect from players,and its because they give none. What would the rational behind a story like this be?

any guess's?

If i own that team,i openly start patronizing the media in constructive manners. I would be blocking access too,just to annoy them. Call press conferences,and cancel them lol. lots of ways to screw them really. Make all your announcements on the road to USA networks lol.

I'd bend their minds in one season. They are idiots.


The season we all waited for,and waited for is five games in ,and all a writer can come up with is past trades? I mean come on! Openly drop names of media idiots. Like Burkie would.

They weren't so brave when they knew Burke was coming right back at them either.Thats one thing about his tenure here,this kind of crap was at a minimum.
Except the team is now owned by the 2 biggest media companies in Canada...

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01-29-2013, 12:12 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by SprDaVE View Post
You win some, you lose some.

Many teams have these types of trades; Leafs are no exception.

We've had a few of them in the last couple years, maybe one too many, but we've also had a lot of good trades to make up for them.

These hypotheticals, in any situation, are going to make people commit suicide.
See the thing is we lose almost every damn one. Or so it seems

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01-29-2013, 12:16 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Deebo View Post
What I said were facts too, maybe not what the article was saying but the Leafs did lose out on any chance to draft him by making a foolish deal.

Maybe St. Louis approached San Jose to move down and would have approached us instead?

We don't know what would have happened for sure if JFJ hadn't traded those picks, but we do know that those picks ended up being massive wastes. Wasted on someone that bombed here and was then traded away less than 3 years later for someone who wasn't retained as a UFA season later.

The Leafs have nothing to show for the assets involved in that trade while San Jose has Couture, St. Louis has Halak and even Montreal has Eller.
You don't need to explain this. I'm not trying to defend the trade. I don't understand why you're making excuses for the article's playing fast and loose with the facts.

What I'm saying is that it's completely disingenuous to ask the question "oh gee, what if the Leafs had Couture in their lineup". Period.

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01-29-2013, 12:19 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by DaveT83 View Post
God I love tracking this trade:

1. Kessel is the best player ever yes - who cares about picks - they probably won't even pan out.
2. Sequin/Hamilton are selected - who cares their probably both busts - were gonna win a cup soon and they'll be just minor leaguers
3. Sequin wins cup - Becomes All-Star - who cares Kessel is an all-star too - plus Hamilton will probably never make the NHL - so were winning
4. Hamilton makes Bruins lineup - playing Top Pairing with Chara ...


I can't wait until Kessel is gone so we can turn the page on this horrid period of time in Leaf History.
Ya seriously he has to be the worst ppg player EVAR!

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01-29-2013, 12:48 PM
  #109
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Wow, insightful article.

Clearly the author is trying to make a very strong point about the Leafs mismanagement had led to another lost season... wait... we're only 5 games in? Ok... clearly then, he enraged by the awful start... we're 2-3? Not 0-5?

I asked the following question Damien Cox's article yesterday and I still think it applies: What the **** is this ****?

Honestly... would the media and those agreeing with these ludicrous articles like to talk about Tom Kurvers next? What about 1967? Maybe that hasn't been talked about enough... or you know, maybe the selling of Charlie Conacher to Detroit in '39?

We get it. The team has made a lot of mistakes in the past decade. A lot of the holes we have now could have been filled by not making these mistakes. Does this really need to be brought up every couple weeks? And from an overly simplistic, idealist viewpoint too?

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01-29-2013, 12:52 PM
  #110
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This article is dumb.... you take back one trade (such as trading Rask) and we do a lot better the next few years if Rask turns out and plays well (hence if we did the Kessel trade we would've finished a lot higher). Undoing one of these trades, would've made the other trades look very good.

What if we traded away Rask and Pogge did well in Boston while Rask did horrible in Toronto? Then our GM would look like an idiot considering most people liked Pogge more.

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01-29-2013, 01:03 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by TMLKesselftw View Post
This article is dumb.... you take back one trade (such as trading Rask) and we do a lot better the next few years if Rask turns out and plays well (hence if we did the Kessel trade we would've finished a lot higher). Undoing one of these trades, would've made the other trades look very good.

What if we traded away Rask and Pogge did well in Boston while Rask did horrible in Toronto? Then our GM would look like an idiot considering most people liked Pogge more.
Rask wasn't an NHL regular until 09-10. The trade was done in 2006.

I don't recall Pogge ever being considered the better prospect.

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01-29-2013, 01:22 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
I agree.

Scenario: Leafs don't deal for Kessel

So without using picks the Leafs just go with the line up they had.

Did Kessel make the team better or worse?

I'll go with the made the team better, since the option likely would not have been a 30 goals scorer.

So the Leafs would be picking no worse than 2nd. overall.

So Seguin in the bank.

Next season is Kessel better than the rookie Seguin? D'ohhh. And since we're keeping prospects and not dealing for older players scratch Versteeg and go with Stalberg. So rather than Kessel and Versteeg we're looking at Stalberg and Sequin in the line up. Kessel was leading scorer.

Results ... worse than 9th. worst. Probably a top 5 pick.

Next season still no Kessel, and Seguin is a 2nd. year player.

This is where it gets tougher, is Kessel better than Seguin still and if so the Leafs are drafting where? Rather than 5th. where?

So are we really comparing having Seguin, Hamilton, Rielly or are we looking at Seguin, Landeskog, Galchenyuk?

Now it could be that Kessel did not make the team any better, so perhaps the picks would have been worse.
Right but the issue isn't really whether we would have finished any better or worse that season knowing how the team actually performed, the question is how it looked like we would have performed with the information we had before the season started. There was a consensus at that time that we would have done better than we actually did. Therefore, it made sense to take the risk that the picks would be high, on the basis that the information available made it seem like the picks would be mid-level and therefore not nearly as valuable as Seguin turned out to be.

The jury is out on whether the results of the trade will ultimately be judged as good or bad pending more information about Kessel's and Seguin's careers. But I don't think it was a bad move for BB to have made the trade in the first place, given the information he had at the time.

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01-29-2013, 01:25 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Deebo View Post
Rask wasn't an NHL regular until 09-10. The trade was done in 2006.

I don't recall Pogge ever being considered the better prospect.
My recollection was that both Rask and Pogge were considered about equal in "potential", with Pogge perhaps coming on stronger at the time. Definitely it was argued that Rask was expendable given that Pogge was in the system.

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01-29-2013, 01:30 PM
  #114
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Right but the issue isn't really whether we would have finished any better or worse that season knowing how the team actually performed, the question is how it looked like we would have performed with the information we had before the season started. There was a consensus at that time that we would have done better than we actually did. Therefore, it made sense to take the risk that the picks would be high, on the basis that the information available made it seem like the picks would be mid-level and therefore not nearly as valuable as Seguin turned out to be.

The jury is out on whether the results of the trade will ultimately be judged as good or bad pending more information about Kessel's and Seguin's careers. But I don't think it was a bad move for BB to have made the trade in the first place, given the information he had at the time.
I often wonder why the Leafs didn't put a condition on the draft pick. That is, a condition that the pick could not be a top 3 pick for example...something like they do all the time in the NBA. Does the NHL have a rule against this practice?

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01-29-2013, 01:41 PM
  #115
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But it's not about value. It's about real stats and worth. Seguin would be nowhere near as good with Mac and Lupul as his wingers. Or on a wing for Grabovski.

Seguin has the benefit of one of the deepest teams in the league with what most consider the toughest top 6. It's a lot easier for a prospect to realize his potential as a star player when his role players are Lucic and Horton. He has Bergeron and Krejci doing the most important defensive assignments. Chara behind him and Rask/Thomas behind Chara.
Umm... we do have very comparable stats for the two actually...

Kessel at age 20 playing with Savard (who had 88 pts) and also playing with Chara/Lucic/etc = 60 points.

Seguin at age 19 playing on that same team? 67 points. Except Seguin actually LEAD the team in points (Bergeron was 2nd with 64), whereas Kessel was significantly behind his linemate who had 88... Savard also assisted on the majority of Kessels goals, so there's no argument to be made that Savard didn't help.

Seguin @ 3 months younger (he turned 20 in January that year) with less offensively inclined linemates playing in the same system produced more than Kessel did. It's as good a comparison as you can get.

Then factor in that Seguin is better defensively than Kessel is and can play Centre which is a more important position.

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01-29-2013, 01:51 PM
  #116
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Then factor in that Seguin is better defensively than Kessel is and can play Centre which is a more important position.
Maybe he's improved a lot this year, but I didn't think much of Seguin's play at centre last year.

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01-29-2013, 01:54 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by ACC1224 View Post
Not me, those guys work way too hard.
What, like spend 20 hours a day on hockey, I do that for free when I have time off...

Hockey isn't exactly complicated. I'm sure a lot of us are in fields that are a lot more mentally demanding.

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01-29-2013, 01:55 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by The Kessel Run View Post
Maybe he's improved a lot this year, but I didn't think much of Seguin's play at centre last year.
He's playing on Bergeron's wing currently.

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01-29-2013, 01:58 PM
  #119
ACC1224
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Originally Posted by Parkdale View Post
My recollection was that both Rask and Pogge were considered about equal in "potential", with Pogge perhaps coming on stronger at the time. Definitely it was argued that Rask was expendable given that Pogge was in the system.
As I recall Boston asked for Rask not the Leafs preferring to keep Pogge.

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01-29-2013, 02:01 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
What, like spend 20 hours a day on hockey, I do that for free when I have time off...

Hockey isn't exactly complicated. I'm sure a lot of us are in fields that are a lot more mentally demanding.
I think negotiating with agents and other GMs is the area the average joe would find overwhelming.

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01-29-2013, 02:03 PM
  #121
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Originally Posted by Deebo View Post
I think negotiating with agents and other GMs is the area the average joe would find overwhelming.
Well, there might be a lot of people on here who have to deal with those things in their professional lives, so let's not mystify a job that can be done by a former NHL backup goalie, for example, or a fat ex-accountant...

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01-29-2013, 02:08 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by The Kessel Run View Post
Maybe he's improved a lot this year, but I didn't think much of Seguin's play at centre last year.
Probably because he was a winger for most, if not all, of the season. . . .

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01-29-2013, 02:11 PM
  #123
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Well, there might be a lot of people on here who have to deal with those things in their professional lives, so let's not mystify a job that can be done by a former NHL backup goalie, for example, or a fat ex-accountant...
I don't know what former professions or body types have to do with a person's intelligence or suitability for a GMs job.

There is a reason why GMs are paid the salaries they are, if it was an easy job that 90% of a random bunch of people could perform successfully, then no one would pay anyone significant money to do it.

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01-29-2013, 02:12 PM
  #124
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What, like spend 20 hours a day on hockey, I do that for free when I have time off...

Hockey isn't exactly complicated. I'm sure a lot of us are in fields that are a lot more mentally demanding.
Most wouldn't have the patience to develop a long term plan and stick to it.

If it's as easy as you make it to be what separates the good ones from the bad ones?

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01-29-2013, 02:21 PM
  #125
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Originally Posted by Deebo View Post
Rask wasn't an NHL regular until 09-10. The trade was done in 2006.

I don't recall Pogge ever being considered the better prospect.
Exactly... Rask put up great #'s in 09-10, and based on this article, were treating each player as if they put up the same #'s/progressed the same way if they were on the leafs. So if we put Rask on the TML team and do the Kessel trade, we have Kessel + a #1G which would mean the Seguin pick (#2, 2010) would be a lot lower considering by far our weakest position was goalie.

All I'm getting at is if we had a goalie that played as well as Rask did that year, we would also be talking about how much of a steal the Kessel trade was as it would be something like two 15th overall picks and a 2nd for Kessel.

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