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Let's lay off the D, the real problem with the wings is the PP.

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01-25-2013, 07:27 AM
  #1
LastWordArmy
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Let's lay off the D, the real problem with the wings is the PP.

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It started right after Detroitís record-setting victory against the San Jose Sharks. Detroit won its 23rd straight at Joe Louis Arena, setting an NHL multiple-season mark for home dominance by holding on to beat the San Jose Sharks 3-2. MacDonald was in net for that one and had been on a six-game win streak. The next game against Chicago, Detroit was without Datsyuk and things turned sour, as Wings finished 8 and 15. Datsyuk had a knee surgery, and while I do not think this was entirely the issue, it most definitely hurt the Wings flow.

The PP is struggling and has been struggling since last year...

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01-25-2013, 07:40 AM
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And the PK has been struggling since 2009.

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01-25-2013, 07:58 AM
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Special teams cost you games, defense cost you seasons.

To clarify, yes last year the PP was poor and cost us. But I think we had a defense then enough to make some damage. Right now we don't and it takes more than a working PP to make this a top team.

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01-25-2013, 08:09 AM
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Originally Posted by joe89 View Post
Special teams cost you games, defense cost you seasons.

To clarify, yes last year the PP was poor and cost us. But I think we had a defense then enough to make some damage. Right now we don't and it takes more than a working PP to make this a top team.
This may be true, but no team wins without a strong PP. Detroit had one of the TOP PP's last year, until that crucial date where everything went to hell for some reason. Detroit was also the best team in the league at that point. You cant win without a good PP, the stats back that up.

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01-25-2013, 08:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LastWordArmy View Post
This may be true, but no team wins without a strong PP. Detroit had one of the TOP PP's last year, until that crucial date where everything went to hell for some reason. Detroit was also the best team in the league at that point. You cant win without a good PP, the stats back that up.
Los Angeles last year? Boston the year before? Both of their PP's were bad to average at best. But their PKs were better, especially in LA's case.

Detroit has definitely relied on their PP for many years, but the main reason is that their offense was their best defense. They would outshoot the opposition every night and that kept the puck out of their zone.

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01-25-2013, 09:06 AM
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The Wing's PP, and their offense a lot of the time, spend most of their time setting up for " The Shot That Scores A Goal". They waste all that time and when someone finally pulls the trigger that's it- one and done. Go back, get possession, fart around with it for another minute, take one more shot, go back, get possession...

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01-25-2013, 09:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Heaton View Post
Los Angeles last year? Boston the year before? Both of their PP's were bad to average at best. But their PKs were better, especially in LA's case.

Detroit has definitely relied on their PP for many years, but the main reason is that their offense was their best defense. They would outshoot the opposition every night and that kept the puck out of their zone.
This is true. LA also had Quick and Boston had Thomas playing insane hockey. You do not kill penalties consistently without excellent goaltending and Quick/Thomas had insane years. Let us be honest...Jimmy is not going to post Quick/Thomas numbers and he really needs support.

We need our PP at 20%, we are a good team 5 on 5 even with those defensive mistakes that have been made so far (again excluding that blues game). PP to me is the magic bullet though...if there is ever such a thing. Scoring goals builds confidence.

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01-25-2013, 09:20 AM
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Ummmmm no, the Wings problem is their garbage defense. It's full of #6-7 D-men pretending they are top four d-men.

PP is garbage too, but the horrendous defense is the main problem.

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01-25-2013, 09:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LastWordArmy View Post
This is true. LA also had Quick and Boston had Thomas playing insane hockey. You do not kill penalties consistently without excellent goaltending and Quick/Thomas had insane years. Let us be honest...Jimmy is not going to post Quick/Thomas numbers and he really needs support.

We need our PP at 20%, we are a good team 5 on 5 even with those defensive mistakes that have been made so far (again excluding that blues game). PP to me is the magic bullet though...if there is ever such a thing. Scoring goals builds confidence.
I don't dispute that, I just don't believe this Wings team has the talent to achieve that. I realize teams like Nashville with a bevy of 2nd-3rd liners have had great PPs and good goaltending lead them to the playoffs - I just don't think we're built or coached that way, for right or wrong.

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01-25-2013, 09:51 AM
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The special teams, PP and PK, are obviously a huge problem.

But the Defense is undeniably the #1 problem right now.

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01-25-2013, 09:51 AM
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Originally Posted by WingedWheel1987 View Post
Ummmmm no, the Wings problem is their garbage defense. It's full of #6-7 D-men pretending they are top four d-men.

PP is garbage too, but the horrendous defense is the main problem.
This is exactly the thinking I am trying to dispute, we had Lindstrom last year and still struggled because of bad PP. If we score 2 goals on PP on 7 tries against the Blue Jackets, that game is never close. Same thing against Dallas. No one looks at the D with a microscope when the team is scoring goals.

Perfect example is Chicago, be it that their top 6 is better than ours, their score PP goals at will. The PP goals change the game for them, win games. They make teams pay for their mistakes. Their goalie is not even that good.

Detroit is really good at working that offensive zone and drawing penalties, but without any capitalization on the PP we get nothing for it.

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01-25-2013, 10:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LastWordArmy View Post
This is exactly the thinking I am trying to dispute, we had Lindstrom last year and still struggled because of bad PP. If we score 2 goals on PP on 7 tries against the Blue Jackets, that game is never close. Same thing against Dallas. No one looks at the D with a microscope when the team is scoring goals.

Perfect example is Chicago, be it that their top 6 is better than ours, their score PP goals at will. The PP goals change the game for them, win games. They make teams pay for their mistakes. Their goalie is not even that good.

Detroit is really good at working that offensive zone and drawing penalties, but without any capitalization on the PP we get nothing for it.
I tend to agree with you. If we were scoring on the power play, although we'd still be *****ing and moaning about Quincey's mistakes, they wouldn't be so glaringly obvious that we're screaming for Holland to do something.

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01-25-2013, 10:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LastWordArmy View Post
This is exactly the thinking I am trying to dispute, we had Lindstrom last year and still struggled because of bad PP. If we score 2 goals on PP on 7 tries against the Blue Jackets, that game is never close. Same thing against Dallas. No one looks at the D with a microscope when the team is scoring goals.

Perfect example is Chicago, be it that their top 6 is better than ours, their score PP goals at will. The PP goals change the game for them, win games. They make teams pay for their mistakes. Their goalie is not even that good.

Detroit is really good at working that offensive zone and drawing penalties, but without any capitalization on the PP we get nothing for it.

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01-25-2013, 10:30 AM
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When the lineup was stacked the Wings always wanted their ranking for the PP and PK to add up to 10 or less. So #2 PP and #4 PK would add up to 6 which was obviously very acceptable.

I agree the power play can win you a lot of regular season games. It tends to become less successful during the playoffs when every team is playing good team defense. If there was one stat that probably tells you how good you are it is goal differential at even strength. If you have one of the best differentials you are going to have a great shot at competing for a Cup. The Wings used to dominate that stat when we had our three year run from 2006-2009. Right now we're 26th.

Considering how much of the game is played at even strength this is obviously a recipe for disaster. I do think splitting up Pavs and Z and getting Helm to center the 3rd line should improve our even strength play.

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01-25-2013, 10:38 AM
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Datsyuk looked like the best player in the NHL at the time of his injury and never regained that form even when returning.

The powerplay will be back-- although the injury to White doesn't help.

Over the last couple years, the Wings needed Zetterberg and Datsyuk at 95 percent to be a really good team.

D & Z have and everyone else are far from 95 percent so far ... but even if they were, I'm not sure this team can be all that good after losing Lidstrom and Stuart.

In the old days, if you had D-Z going 95 percent, you were a cup contender, possibly.

Nowadays, we need these guys going gangbusters just to get into the playoffs.

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01-25-2013, 11:31 AM
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And how about our PK? Special teams have been a joke.

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01-25-2013, 11:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fabricoh View Post
When the lineup was stacked the Wings always wanted their ranking for the PP and PK to add up to 10 or less. So #2 PP and #4 PK would add up to 6 which was obviously very acceptable.

I agree the power play can win you a lot of regular season games. It tends to become less successful during the playoffs when every team is playing good team defense. If there was one stat that probably tells you how good you are it is goal differential at even strength. If you have one of the best differentials you are going to have a great shot at competing for a Cup. The Wings used to dominate that stat when we had our three year run from 2006-2009. Right now we're 26th.

Considering how much of the game is played at even strength this is obviously a recipe for disaster. I do think splitting up Pavs and Z and getting Helm to center the 3rd line should improve our even strength play.

Five on Five play is important, But to me..we will get good at that and were not even that bad. The thing is that when you do not score on the PP... you tend to give momentum to the other team and deflate yourself. A successful PP really drives a teams momentum. We had 7 opportunities vs the Jackets... not one goal. That has to be deflating.

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01-25-2013, 12:02 PM
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Originally Posted by LastWordArmy View Post
Five on Five play is important, But to me..we will get good at that and were not even that bad. The thing is that when you do not score on the PP... you tend to give momentum to the other team and deflate yourself. A successful PP really drives a teams momentum. We had 7 opportunities vs the Jackets... not one goal. That has to be deflating.
Nah, if you actually look at results teams that are strong 5v5 compete for Cups. Teams that are strong on the PP are not guaranteed much of anything. As someone else mentioned both the Kings and Bruins were not strong PP teams. They were very good both 5v5 and on the PK.

PP efficiency is nice but it's largely cosmetic. It can make you look better than you are. The Wings teams when Dave Lewis was coach were always good on the PP and would struggle during the playoffs when the PP wasn't performing. Those teams had no ability to score 5v5.

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01-25-2013, 12:41 PM
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LWA, your observations seem way off base. Anyone can see that our defence has gone from declining to bad, in fact probably the worst it has been in nearly 20 years. Yes, an improved PP would be awesome (no crap, we are running at 0% ), but moving forward that should right itself. Our Dmen aren't going to all of a sudden become better, they are what they are. Kindl and Smith have room to grow, but other than that... no thanks.

Also, how are you still spelling Lidstrom with an n? That is a rookie mistake, and ruins any credibility you had.

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01-25-2013, 12:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eternal Sunshine View Post
LWA, your observations seem way off base. Anyone can see that our defence has gone from declining to bad, in fact probably the worst it has been in nearly 20 years. Yes, an improved PP would be awesome (no crap, we are running at 0% ), but moving forward that should right itself. Our Dmen aren't going to all of a sudden become better, they are what they are. Kindl and Smith have room to grow, but other than that... no thanks.

Also, how are you still spelling Lidstrom with an n? That is a rookie mistake, and ruins and credibility you had.
Eternal how are you still spelling "any" with a d. Rookees.

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01-25-2013, 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by fabricoh View Post
Nah, if you actually look at results teams that are strong 5v5 compete for Cups. Teams that are strong on the PP are not guaranteed much of anything. As someone else mentioned both the Kings and Bruins were not strong PP teams. They were very good both 5v5 and on the PK.

PP efficiency is nice but it's largely cosmetic. It can make you look better than you are. The Wings teams when Dave Lewis was coach were always good on the PP and would struggle during the playoffs when the PP wasn't performing. Those teams had no ability to score 5v5.
Kings and Bruins had goalies who played insane hockey. They did not win games with GOOD defense.

Besides Boston and LA Kings these are the PP % of the last few Cup Finalists through the playoffs..
Tampa Bay SCF - 25.4
Chicago SCF - 22.5
Flyers SCF - 21.9
Detroit SCF - 23.7
Penguins SCF - 20.6


They all have excellent PP numbers. Last year was an "exception" to the rule.

I am not saying that excellent PP is THEEEE magic answer here, but we need it to get into the playoffs. If you have 20+% PP, it is very hard to miss the playoffs, unless you are horrible 5 on 5 and Detroit is not horrible 5 on 5.

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01-25-2013, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by probertrules24 View Post
Eternal how are you still spelling "any" with a d. Rookees.
hahah, damn, you beat my ninja edit. That is a typo though, people put the n in Lidstrom consciously. I never understood why the spelling with an n caught on. Even the NHL did it (or at least, that person wore a jersey at the awards one year).

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01-25-2013, 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Eternal Sunshine View Post
LWA, your observations seem way off base. Anyone can see that our defence has gone from declining to bad, in fact probably the worst it has been in nearly 20 years. Yes, an improved PP would be awesome (no crap, we are running at 0% ), but moving forward that should right itself. Our Dmen aren't going to all of a sudden become better, they are what they are. Kindl and Smith have room to grow, but other than that... no thanks.

Also, how are you still spelling Lidstrom with an n? That is a rookie mistake, and ruins any credibility you had.
My credibility exists only in your best opinion and I try to attain it while providing some evidence for my opinion. Spelling mistake is a mistake and thank you for pointing it out.

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01-25-2013, 01:02 PM
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Lidstrom stirred the powerplay drink for 20 years. And other great players that are long gone. There's going to be a sag unless Datsyuk picks it up and starts doing it all himself.

All those great powerplays listed that went to the finals had players better than Kronwall for running the point. Brad Richards, Keith/Seabrook, Pronger, and Gonchar/Letang.

Gentlemen, we've found the weak link. Of course every team in the league is looking for powerplay QBs as good as those guys, so ya know, it's not exactly an uncommon problem. Just uncommon for Detroit that had the luxury of rolling out multiple elite PP QBs for the last 20 years.

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01-25-2013, 01:03 PM
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Originally Posted by LastWordArmy View Post
Kings and Bruins had goalies who played insane hockey. They did not win games with GOOD defense.

Besides Boston and LA Kings these are the PP % of the last few Cup Finalists through the playoffs..
Tampa Bay SCF - 25.4
Chicago SCF - 22.5
Flyers SCF - 21.9
Detroit SCF - 23.7
Penguins SCF - 20.6


They all have excellent PP numbers. Last year was an "exception" to the rule.

I am not saying that excellent PP is THEEEE magic answer here, but we need it to get into the playoffs. If you have 20+% PP, it is very hard to miss the playoffs, unless you are horrible 5 on 5 and Detroit is not horrible 5 on 5.
LOL, blow off two most recent examples that show your point is incorrect. Priceless.

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