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Top 25 Slovakian Players Of All-Time – #5

View Poll Results: Top 25 Slovakian Players Of All-Time – #5
Peter Bondra 22 73.33%
Pavol Demitra 2 6.67%
Vladimir Dzurilla 3 10.00%
Marian Gaborik 0 0%
Jozef Golonka 0 0%
Michal Handzus 0 0%
Vincent Lukac 0 0%
Ladislav Nagy 0 0%
Robert Svehla 0 0%
Lubomir Visnovsky 1 3.33%
Miroslav Satan 1 3.33%
Marian Stastny 0 0%
Anton Stastny 0 0%
Jozef Stümpel 0 0%
Richard Zednik 1 3.33%
Voters: 30. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
01-30-2013, 12:30 PM
  #1
the edler
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Top 25 Slovakian Players Of All-Time – #5

1. Peter Stastny
2. Zdeno Chara
3. Marian Hossa
4. Zigmund Palffy

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01-30-2013, 12:36 PM
  #2
MadArcand
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Bondra by far.

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01-30-2013, 06:05 PM
  #3
Ohashi_Jouzu
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I think I still consider Demitra the "better" player "overall", and still contend that his international resume far outweighs Bondra's. There isn't even much separation in NHL playoff resumes between them, with Bondra's 30 goals and 56 post season points vs Demitra's 23 goals and 59 post season points (94 vs 80 games, of course).

Now, Bondra has the edge in "Slovakian Player of the Year" nods 3-1 supporting his case. But looking back I have to wonder how Bondra beat out Demitra in '02/03, for example, or even the year before that, when a 35G/78 point Demitra was leading his team into the playoffs while a 39G/70 point Bondra was cleaning out his locker early in Washington.

I don't know, I could vote Bondra and be fine with it. His resume largely speaks for itself in terms of value. Don't know that I value his aggregate numbers as a sniper more than everything Demitra brought over his career on all stages, though. Satan also has a lot going for him on these levels, too, but I think he has to come after these two guys.

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01-30-2013, 06:10 PM
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TheDevilMadeMe
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I think Demitra definitely peaked a little higher in the regular season, as I showed last time, but Bondra has more seasons as a borderline start player. I think their NHL careers are close enough where it's okay to take Bondra based on his International resume.

I voted Dzurilla over either of them though - I think at his best, he was more of an impact player.

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01-30-2013, 06:18 PM
  #5
tony d
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Bondra

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01-31-2013, 01:50 AM
  #6
MadArcand
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
I think I still consider Demitra the "better" player "overall", and still contend that his international resume far outweighs Bondra's.
In NT, one was a notorious choker, while the other was the greatest hero. And you think the choker has the better resume?

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01-31-2013, 02:07 AM
  #7
Ohashi_Jouzu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MadArcand View Post
In NT, one was a notorious choker, while the other was the greatest hero. And you think the choker has the better resume?
Which one of those guys has captained Slovakia internationally, appeared for them more often in the Olympics and World Championships, and which one of them has boatloads more points on both stages than the other one, again? Bondra was a World Championship all-star once, but Demitra was an Olympic all-star once (led the Olympics in scoring, no less), and voted top 3 on his team in a World Championship on another occasion.

So yes, it looks like a far better and deeper international resume to me.

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01-31-2013, 02:29 AM
  #8
MadArcand
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Which one of those guys has captained Slovakia internationally, appeared for them more often in the Olympics and World Championships, and which one of them has boatloads more points on both stages than the other one, again? Bondra was a World Championship all-star once, but Demitra was an Olympic all-star once (led the Olympics in scoring, no less), and voted top 3 on his team in a World Championship on another occasion.

So yes, it looks like a far better and deeper international resume to me.
If you actually watched the team, you wouldn't say so.

More points? Great, means his teams failed to make playoffs more than Bondra's. No one cares if you're Olympic all-star and then fail to deliver in the crucial moment of the very Olympics. Bondra delivered in the crunch time that led to the greatest accomplishment of the NT.

And being a captain is irrelevant, especially given the circumstances it came about.

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01-31-2013, 03:05 AM
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Ohashi_Jouzu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MadArcand View Post
If you actually watched the team, you wouldn't say so.

More points? Great, means his teams failed to make playoffs more than Bondra's. No one cares if you're Olympic all-star and then fail to deliver in the crucial moment of the very Olympics. Bondra delivered in the crunch time that led to the greatest accomplishment of the NT.

And being a captain is irrelevant, especially given the circumstances it came about.
It also means he has done more on both of those stages, like I said. Problem with following the path of your logic is, though, that Demitra actually has more playoff games played career, and the only brighter spot Bondra had on the international stage (WC gold) was provided to him via missing the playoffs (while Demitra was in the midst of the NHL playoffs). While we're on the topic, how many times has a Bondra-led team made it out of the first round of the NHL playoffs, vs Demitra-led teams?

I know what you're saying, but I'm not going to fall victim to the fallacy of over-magnifying specific blemishes or micro-segments of game play to whittle a player down, nor will I be completely blinded by compiling. Bondra was a great goal scorer - maybe even a Hall of Fame goal scorer - but I still think Demitra was the better "overall" player. Or was the player of slightly higher "calibre". Or however you want to put it. The advantage I see in Demitra's international resume is basically gravy on a narrow margin of "victory", and yes, I've seen more than enough of both of these guys - both domestically and internationally - to form a solid enough opinion of them. Not everyone is going to agree, but I really couldn't care less.

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01-31-2013, 03:31 AM
  #10
vadim sharifijanov
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MadArcand View Post
If you actually watched the team, you wouldn't say so.

More points? Great, means his teams failed to make playoffs more than Bondra's. No one cares if you're Olympic all-star and then fail to deliver in the crucial moment of the very Olympics. Bondra delivered in the crunch time that led to the greatest accomplishment of the NT.

And being a captain is irrelevant, especially given the circumstances it came about.
i've never heard about this. what were the circumstances of demitra becoming captain?

and for my part, my only memory of either of those guys in international competition was demitra in the last olympics, where he was awesome. all us canucks fans were going, "where the hell has this demitra been the entire time he's been in vancouver?"

and i don't know if demitra choked in the bronze medal game-- i live in the states and at the time only had the basic NBC channel that came from sticking an antenna in the air so i didn't get to watch it. but demitra came within a ridiculously great luongo save of forcing OT and maybe even getting you guys into the gold medal game.

none of this is to say i have a horse in this race. couldn't really care less about either guy, though my gut says bondra being really really good at once thing trumps demitra being a really good at a few things.

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01-31-2013, 09:53 AM
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MadArcand View Post
No one cares if you're Olympic all-star and then fail to deliver in the crucial moment of the very Olympics.
Replace "no one cares" with "I don't care" and the sentence might be true.

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Old
01-31-2013, 12:36 PM
  #12
begbeee
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Demitra is heavily overrated here. He was a notorious choker and didn't deliver in many tournaments where Slovaks should shine.
2003 - WC - bronze what was a big dissapointment after the gold, because we had far better roster than gold year before
2006 - OG - arguably the strongest NT was supposed to fight for medals, with Demitra being captain. Result? Demitra injured and Slovaks lost in QF.
2010 - OG - Demitra had the biggest opportunity to score and tie game with Canada. Result? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFt9B35p0EQ
2011 - WC in Slovakia - Big expectations with Demitra as a captain and leader of very good roster. The lost against Germany and QF dream is over.

Add President Trophy Blues with Demitra as a centerpiece in the mix, which failed to put together a decent playoff run and you have your Demitra - choker.

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01-31-2013, 09:25 PM
  #13
Ohashi_Jouzu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by begbeee View Post
Demitra is heavily overrated here. He was a notorious choker and didn't deliver in many tournaments where Slovaks should shine.
2003 - WC - bronze what was a big dissapointment after the gold, because we had far better roster than gold year before
So Bondra's 3 goals/5 points in 8 games contributed a whole lot more than Demitra's 2 goas/4 points in 5 games that tournament? Really?

Quote:
Originally Posted by begbeee View Post
2006 - OG - arguably the strongest NT was supposed to fight for medals, with Demitra being captain. Result? Demitra injured and Slovaks lost in QF.
And yet he contributed 7 points in those six games to Bondra's 4.

Quote:
Originally Posted by begbeee View Post
2010 - OG - Demitra had the biggest opportunity to score and tie game with Canada. Result? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFt9B35p0EQ
And yet, Demitra contributed 10 points in 7 games... while Bondra was retired. Personally, if I were a Slovak fan I would have been a bit disappointed by Gaborik only managing one more goal than Demitra, Palffy getting no goals and only 3 points, and very little offense being generated on the back end by Chara and Visnovsky.

Quote:
Originally Posted by begbeee View Post
2011 - WC in Slovakia - Big expectations with Demitra as a captain and leader of very good roster. The lost against Germany and QF dream is over.
Sure, Demitra was the captain, but he was also what, 36 by this point? The production of Gaborik (again), both Hossas, and an offensively anemic defense probably had more to do with Slovakia's "fortunes" than just Demitra.

Quote:
Originally Posted by begbeee View Post
Add President Trophy Blues with Demitra as a centerpiece in the mix, which failed to put together a decent playoff run and you have your Demitra - choker.
Um... to the best of my knowledge, when the Blues won the President trophy, Demitra was their leading scorer in the regular season, but was injured for the playoffs. Still hold that post season against him? Hold that against him more than supposedly one of the best goal scorers in history going goalless in three separate trips to the NHL post season?

If we're going to magnify every blemish that catches our fancy, what do we make of Bondra's 0 goals and only 7 shots in his first trip to the post season. Or 0 goals on 16 shots in a first round loss to the Islanders in '93. Or 0 goals and only 7 shots to start out round two 0W-3L against the Rangers in '94 (part of a 5 game goalless streak at the time)? How about only 1 goal and 7 shots generated in a 4 game sweep by Detroit in '98, Washington's best chance at a Cup in franchise history? And then there's also 0 goals, 0 points on 16 shots in his 7 post season games in Ottawa.

Still think magnifying these kinds of blemishes evenly across the board for all candidates really gets us closer to determining any relative "merit" scale? I don't. Playing the game you and Madarcand would prefer to play here just looks like acts in witch hunting and axe grinding to me.

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02-01-2013, 12:10 AM
  #14
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Originally Posted by begbeee View Post
2006 - OG - arguably the strongest NT was supposed to fight for medals, with Demitra being captain. Result? Demitra injured and Slovaks lost in QF.
Is this supposed to be an argument against or in favour of Demitra?

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02-01-2013, 03:00 AM
  #15
MadArcand
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Still think magnifying these kinds of blemishes evenly across the board for all candidates really gets us closer to determining any relative "merit" scale? I don't. Playing the game you and Madarcand would prefer to play here just looks like acts in witch hunting and axe grinding to me.
It's not witch hunting, I have nothing against Demitra (R.I.P.), and he's next on my list of forwards here. It's just that you'd be hard pressed to find anyone in Slovakia who'd take Demitra over Bondra, and it would largely be because of their international efforts. If you feel like you know their international play and reputation better than the people from their own country who watched every NT game, well, be my guest. Bondra already won here anyway.


Last edited by MadArcand: 02-01-2013 at 03:10 AM.
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02-01-2013, 03:55 AM
  #16
Ohashi_Jouzu
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Originally Posted by MadArcand View Post
It's not witch hunting, I have nothing against Demitra (R.I.P.), and he's next on my list of forwards here. It's just that you'd be hard pressed to find anyone in Slovakia who'd take Demitra over Bondra, and it would largely be because of their international efforts. If you feel like you know their international play and reputation better than the people from their own country who watched every NT game, well, be my guest. Bondra already won here anyway.
I certainly can't speak to the presumed national sentiment of Slovakia on the subject, and can only wonder how a couple of Paul Henderson-esque memories from international tournaments could so conclusively outweigh the sheer tenure, responsibility (role AND position, for the most part), and production edge in Demitra's favour - literally double across the board.

I can totally see how and why Bondra deserves to be taken first between them, but it involves giving a lot of credit for a relatively small percentage of Bondra's total resume, and perhaps giving less credit for the relatively large percentage of Demitra's total resume. IMO, of course.

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