HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Metropolitan Division > Pittsburgh Penguins
Notices

Cole's Plus/Minus: Pens vs. Isles - YIKES

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
01-29-2013, 11:10 PM
  #301
KIRK
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 27,100
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ColePens View Post
I think you see my posts on each page discussing the game, the lines, etc. There is enough discussion going around. I'm waiting for you to make a case FOR Bylsma.

I'll keep waiting... I guess?
I hope you're not holding your breath . . .

Hey, how about this for a retort: Sid and Geno, at long last, deserve a coach worthy of their talents. Therrien wasn't that coach. Bylsma has proven not to be that coach. Doesn't matter how good he is, how nice he is, how he's 'growing', what he did four years ago (that's what the defense of Bylsma boils down to) . . . Sid and Geno, at long last, deserve better (and, lest I forget, that doesn't just go for the coach . . . it goes for a GM enamored by bottom six players and what a defensive prospect might do in four years rather than doing right by those two).

KIRK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-29-2013, 11:12 PM
  #302
KIRK
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 27,100
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by cassius View Post
Haha.. look dude, this is a board where folks share their opinions. So if you're hoping for me to answer all of your questions, you're going to be waiting a long time bro.

I never once volunteered to make a case for Bylsma, I was simply refuting your illogical arguement that he should be fired.

You gotta be patient - it's completely silly to make brash decisions 6 games into the season.

If we miss the playoffs? Sure - Bylsma needs to get axed, but it's still a long season and anything could happen.
So, the new standard is making the playoffs? Wow . . .

And, 'I'm not going to make a case why Bylsma is the right coach for the Pens; I'm just going to 'refute' your case why Bylsma isn't the right coach for the Pens by saying I refuted it'. Another wow . . .

KIRK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-29-2013, 11:14 PM
  #303
IcedCapp
IcedCapp The White
 
IcedCapp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Country: Canada
Posts: 18,273
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DegenX View Post
there was a player-only meeting?
after the Rangers game, apparently.........

edit: why do you guys keep letting yourselves get trolled by the troll?

IcedCapp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-29-2013, 11:15 PM
  #304
MtlPenFan
Registered User
 
MtlPenFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 10,982
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
LOL . . .

FYI, I hope you know that I'm with you on Shero. I just see Bylsma as part of a problem that goes beyond personnel. I don't think Sid and Geno are buying anymore, and it's one of those things where whatever he tries out of desperation isn't going to work. There was a chance to fix it, but that was with a half dozen games or so left in last season.
At this point, I honestly don't care anymore. My concern is the uniform winning games and championships. Sid and Geno could both wear Orange for the rest of their careers if some crystal ball told me it would result in multiple championships for the Pens. I'm that heartless when it comes to the teams I root for (except for Mario and Elway. Either of those two wearing any other uniform would have probably turned me into a serial killer)

Some of us (you and I specifically) back on the NHL boards kept calling for Therrien's head because he had the team literally playing that stupid, passive aggressive style. It just didn't FIT the roster.

I don't know man. I'd want DB fired if I thought it would be that simple a fix...but it wouldn't be this time like it was when MT was fired. Like I said, at this point I want it done sooner rather than later just to satisfy my own curiosity. But I've played on enough teams, and even helped out coaching on an assistant basis (minor hockey) for the fun of it while working or playing with various degrees of talent to strongly believe that a change in strategy would do **** all. If they just don't want to play for Bylsma anymore, that's another story.

It's just not a good supporting cast. I don't like stretch passes any more than you do, but are we really going to ask for Dupuis and Kunitz to exchange 5 foot passes through the neutral zone? I'd get chest pains every time. What's disconcerting to me is that the supporting cast's ONLY way to contribute - due to lack of talent - is to go balls out every chance they get, and they're not doing that right now.

And I'll take EVERYONE more seriously on the coaching issue as long as they concede that Fleury is one of the most overrated goalies of all time

MtlPenFan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-29-2013, 11:17 PM
  #305
Funk311
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 911
vCash: 500
Our team is just soff.

I will also bring this up again. I never understood why we didn't do...

Neal Crosby Malkin
Kunitz Staal Dupuis
TK FA Cooke

This would have given staal the increased role he wanted, and Sid + Geno would each have pretty much the best two linemates imaginable. It is so much easier to find a solid 3rd line center through the draft or FA then a great top 6 fit.

Our roster now is less talented and has no grit. Even going by NHL.com over stated ht and wt, we have only 4 forwards over 6'1. None of which play a particularly gritty brand of hockey. I think this has a lot to do with our inability to control prime real estate in the offensive zone. We are too easy to force the the perimeter.

Funk311 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-29-2013, 11:20 PM
  #306
ColePens
Global Moderator
Your Savior
 
ColePens's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Pittsburgh
Country: United States
Posts: 32,075
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to ColePens
Quote:
Originally Posted by MtlPenFan View Post
At this point, I honestly don't care anymore. My concern is the uniform winning games and championships. Sid and Geno could both wear Orange for the rest of their careers if some crystal ball told me it would result in multiple championships for the Pens. I'm that heartless when it comes to the teams I root for (except for Mario and Elway. Either of those two wearing any other uniform would have probably turned me into a serial killer)

Some of us (you and I specifically) back on the NHL boards kept calling for Therrien's head because he had the team literally playing that stupid, passive aggressive style. It just didn't FIT the roster.

I don't know man. I'd want DB fired if I thought it would be that simple a fix...but it wouldn't be this time like it was when MT was fired. Like I said, at this point I want it done sooner rather than later just to satisfy my own curiosity. But I've played on enough teams, and even helped out coaching on an assistant basis (minor hockey) for the fun of it while working or playing with various degrees of talent to strongly believe that a change in strategy would do **** all. If they just don't want to play for Bylsma anymore, that's another story.

It's just not a good supporting cast. I don't like stretch passes any more than you do, but are we really going to ask for Dupuis and Kunitz to exchange 5 foot passes through the neutral zone? I'd get chest pains every time. What's disconcerting to me is that the supporting cast's ONLY way to contribute - due to lack of talent - is to go balls out every chance they get, and they're not doing that right now.

And I'll take EVERYONE more seriously on the coaching issue as long as they concede that Fleury is one of the most overrated goalies of all time
1) I agree about the uniform winning championships. If you told me I get to watch Sid play his career out here and we get 1 title and tons of stats/awards vs. just 2 championships in the same time - I take the titles. Every. Single. Time.

2) Fleury has a ceiling of a top tier goalie. He also has one hell of a floor, too. That's what top tier goalies do not have. They do it with consistency. Fleury's talent level is just limitless. That's the cool thing about Vokoun. He will never have as much talent as Fleury, but he will also never bomb that bad, either. I love #29, but if we can't re-sign him in order to get a better roster, I'm not crying. I think this team could win with like a Niemi or someone of a weaker talent level. It would just have to be amazing moves to get someone from Shero. But this talk is neither here nor there.

3) Kunitz is hot garbage right now. So is Matt Cooke. They are completely useless.

ColePens is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-29-2013, 11:23 PM
  #307
ColePens
Global Moderator
Your Savior
 
ColePens's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Pittsburgh
Country: United States
Posts: 32,075
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to ColePens
Quote:
Originally Posted by Funk311 View Post
Our team is just soff.

I will also bring this up again. I never understood why we didn't do...

Neal Crosby Malkin
Kunitz Staal Dupuis
TK FA Cooke

This would have given staal the increased role he wanted, and Sid + Geno would each have pretty much the best two linemates imaginable. It is so much easier to find a solid 3rd line center through the draft or FA then a great top 6 fit.

Our roster now is less talented and has no grit. Even going by NHL.com over stated ht and wt, we have only 4 forwards over 6'1. None of which play a particularly gritty brand of hockey. I think this has a lot to do with our inability to control prime real estate in the offensive zone. We are too easy to force the the perimeter.
I've been watching Staal at Carolina and no freaking way would I want to pay him 7-8M per. Just not a single way.

ColePens is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-29-2013, 11:23 PM
  #308
KIRK
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 27,100
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MtlPenFan View Post
At this point, I honestly don't care anymore. My concern is the uniform winning games and championships. Sid and Geno could both wear Orange for the rest of their careers if some crystal ball told me it would result in multiple championships for the Pens. I'm that heartless when it comes to the teams I root for (except for Mario and Elway. Either of those two wearing any other uniform would have probably turned me into a serial killer)

Some of us (you and I specifically) back on the NHL boards kept calling for Therrien's head because he had the team literally playing that stupid, passive aggressive style. It just didn't FIT the roster.

I don't know man. I'd want DB fired if I thought it would be that simple a fix...but it wouldn't be this time like it was when MT was fired. Like I said, at this point I want it done sooner rather than later just to satisfy my own curiosity. But I've played on enough teams, and even helped out coaching on an assistant basis (minor hockey) for the fun of it while working or playing with various degrees of talent to strongly believe that a change in strategy would do **** all. If they just don't want to play for Bylsma anymore, that's another story.

It's just not a good supporting cast. I don't like stretch passes any more than you do, but are we really going to ask for Dupuis and Kunitz to exchange 5 foot passes through the neutral zone? I'd get chest pains every time. What's disconcerting to me is that the supporting cast's ONLY way to contribute - due to lack of talent - is to go balls out every chance they get, and they're not doing that right now.

And I'll take EVERYONE more seriously on the coaching issue as long as they concede that Fleury is one of the most overrated goalies of all time
1. Say what you will, but MT had an even bigger pile of **** to work with in his last 25 than Bylsma has had in his past 25 (look at THAT roster . . . no Gonchar, no Whitney, and Fedotenko, Dupuis, Satan, and Sykora to round out the top six).

2. The reason there's no easy fix is because the nature of the fix is so different this time. THEN, it was about taking a situation where a guy had suffocated everyone with structure and discipline and accountability and getting the right guy to loosen the chains. NOW, it's about finding a guy to introduce all of those things to an environment where there is none. THAT is a far more daunting task (and, again, that's a big reason I'm pushing for now, especially with the compressed season with only the rare three day break between games).

3. Yes, I remember once upon a time that we were alone in our evaluation of the coaching situation . . . With Bylsma, I just don't think they're buying. I don't think Sid and Geno are buying. I'll bet if you asked yourself when's the last time they went through the motions like this, you'd only have to look at some game tape from four years ago. You know, from experience, guys like Sid and Geno don't consciously quit on the coach. But, I think they see the same **** being tried again and again and again and not working, and first you try to overcompensate before subconsciously saying '**** it, doesn't matter what I do'. I just think you need to change that immediately in the same way you needed to change it four years ago. If Sid and Geno aren't on board-- and you can't watch them thinking they are-- then the rest of this conversation is academic.

KIRK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-29-2013, 11:25 PM
  #309
MonsterSurge
Registered User
 
MonsterSurge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 2,387
vCash: 500
Something else to back up my rough play deal...

Nailers vs Jackals last year: Nailers are getting outplayed until Peter Merth decides to take someone to task after a goal. The Nailers come back and win in the shootout.

MonsterSurge is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-29-2013, 11:26 PM
  #310
MrBurgundy*
Time to move forward
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: GlassCase of Emotion
Country: United States
Posts: 16,896
vCash: 500
I bet Brian Strait is glad he got the **** out of Dodge.

MrBurgundy* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-29-2013, 11:28 PM
  #311
KIRK
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 27,100
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBurgundy View Post
I bet Brian Strait is glad he got the **** out of Dodge.
Too bad. Tonight he'd have been the Penguins best defensemen. Thank goodness Ray Shero opted to keep Ben Lovejoy.

KIRK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-29-2013, 11:30 PM
  #312
Matt Damon
Registered User
 
Matt Damon's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Manitoba
Country: Canada
Posts: 939
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ColePens View Post
Adams did have a couple shifts with Sid tonight and I cannot fathom why. It was in place of Dupers, too. I couldn't really understand what was going on. The juggling act of line changes is weird. It's okay to let a line play with each other all game. I don't think DJ saw his first shift until 10 minutes into the 1st period.

Players don't like being moved around. They like a normal shift with linemates. On the bench there is a lot of communication on what to do next time. If you never get to go out there and do it, because of line juggling, it doesn't help.

I understand certain situations putting Neal/Sid/Geno together to apply pressure, but they can double shift again. In fact, they'll probably love it. Once we go with a big line, we have like 10 shifts of mixed/matched mates. It makes no sense.
To me this is the root of the issue right now.

Everyone knows coaches are responsible for making in-game adjustments, but the players are also able do that amongst themselves. "Hey next time if we get a 3 on 2 like that just drive to the net" (general example) But how can they communicate and build on flow/chemistry shift to shift when they have no clue who they're getting sent out on the ice with. What's the point in even talking on the bench? They'd be more apt to looking back at their coach trying to figure out when their number is getting called upon. It's got to be beyond frustrating right now. It's just not the proper way to build a "team".

Anyway, not a regular on the Pens board, but my roomate is a diehard and watches every game. So by default I do as well. Good luck Thursday.

Matt Damon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-29-2013, 11:31 PM
  #313
DegenX
#FireMorehouse
 
DegenX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Country: United States
Posts: 3,877
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by IcedCapp View Post
after the Rangers game, apparently.........

edit: why do you guys keep letting yourselves get trolled by the troll?
i don't understand the trolling comment?

DegenX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-29-2013, 11:31 PM
  #314
MrBurgundy*
Time to move forward
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: GlassCase of Emotion
Country: United States
Posts: 16,896
vCash: 500
I really miss how we played in 2009.

MrBurgundy* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-29-2013, 11:32 PM
  #315
KIRK
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 27,100
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by IcedCapp View Post
after the Rangers game, apparently.........

edit: why do you guys keep letting yourselves get trolled by the troll?
I also didn't know that.

KIRK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-29-2013, 11:32 PM
  #316
MrBurgundy*
Time to move forward
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: GlassCase of Emotion
Country: United States
Posts: 16,896
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DegenX View Post
i don't understand the trolling comment?
cassius

MrBurgundy* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-29-2013, 11:33 PM
  #317
KIRK
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 27,100
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBurgundy View Post
I really miss how we played in 2009.
I assume you mean after, not before, the coach was replaced.

KIRK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-29-2013, 11:33 PM
  #318
KIRK
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 27,100
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBurgundy View Post
cassius
Who?

KIRK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-29-2013, 11:33 PM
  #319
IcedCapp
IcedCapp The White
 
IcedCapp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Country: Canada
Posts: 18,273
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DegenX View Post
i don't understand the trolling comment?
Cassius is getting under the skin of too many folks tonight

IcedCapp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-29-2013, 11:34 PM
  #320
MtlPenFan
Registered User
 
MtlPenFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 10,982
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
1. Say what you will, but MT had an even bigger pile of **** to work with in his last 25 than Bylsma has had in his past 25 (look at THAT roster . . . no Gonchar, no Whitney, and Fedotenko, Dupuis, Satan, and Sykora to round out the top six).

2. The reason there's no easy fix is because the nature of the fix is so different this time. THEN, it was about taking a situation where a guy had suffocated everyone with structure and discipline and accountability and getting the right guy to loosen the chains. NOW, it's about finding a guy to introduce all of those things to an environment where there is none. THAT is a far more daunting task (and, again, that's a big reason I'm pushing for now, especially with the compressed season with only the rare three day break between games).

3. Yes, I remember once upon a time that we were alone in our evaluation of the coaching situation . . . With Bylsma, I just don't think they're buying. I don't think Sid and Geno are buying. I'll bet if you asked yourself when's the last time they went through the motions like this, you'd only have to look at some game tape from four years ago. You know, from experience, guys like Sid and Geno don't consciously quit on the coach. But, I think they see the same **** being tried again and again and again and not working, and first you try to overcompensate before subconsciously saying '**** it, doesn't matter what I do'. I just think you need to change that immediately in the same way you needed to change it four years ago. If Sid and Geno aren't on board-- and you can't watch them thinking they are-- then the rest of this conversation is academic.
The parallels are frightening, there's no doubt there.

MtlPenFan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-29-2013, 11:34 PM
  #321
MrBurgundy*
Time to move forward
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: GlassCase of Emotion
Country: United States
Posts: 16,896
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
I assume you mean after, not before, the coach was replaced.
of course.

MrBurgundy* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-29-2013, 11:34 PM
  #322
DegenX
#FireMorehouse
 
DegenX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Country: United States
Posts: 3,877
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBurgundy View Post
cassius
Quote:
Originally Posted by IcedCapp View Post
Cassius is getting under the skin of too many folks tonight
ahhh .. ok ... thanks

DegenX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-29-2013, 11:34 PM
  #323
MrBurgundy*
Time to move forward
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: GlassCase of Emotion
Country: United States
Posts: 16,896
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
Who?
Exactly

MrBurgundy* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-29-2013, 11:40 PM
  #324
KIRK
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 27,100
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MtlPenFan View Post
The parallels are frightening, there's no doubt there.
That's why I started ******** about Geno a few days ago.

Four years ago, Sid is the guy who went first. The spears to the groin, the visible signs of disgust, the loss of control. It wasn't that it hadn't happened before. It was that it struck me then as different. That was mid December 2008. Geno followed him about a week later in terms of starting to go through the motions.

This time, I saw the same type of thing from Geno, where it's not as if he hasn't flipped out before, but it just struck me as different. I didn't know how to describe it. Now, you've got Sid going through the motions too.

Thing is, in the next month, the Pens WILL have some good games. Remember the 'Geno put the $1000 on the board before the third period' game against Tampa. That was January 2009 (I remember saying to myself '**** you, Geno, you saved Therrien's job tonight').

Well, Sid or Geno or maybe once in a while Fleury will do just enough to save a game, maybe even two, and everyone will say 'they're back on track'.

They won't be. Over the month, the trend line will continue downward as it has over the last 25 games.

That's how it worked with Therrien. I see the same dance with Bylsma. And, as I've said, if you look at other teams, it's how it always works.

Replacing Bylsma won't be a panacea. But, it's now a part of the solution.

KIRK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-29-2013, 11:41 PM
  #325
KIRK
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 27,100
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBurgundy View Post
Exactly
What?

KIRK is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:33 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.