I think you see my posts on each page discussing the game, the lines, etc. There is enough discussion going around. I'm waiting for you to make a case FOR Bylsma.
I'll keep waiting... I guess?
I hope you're not holding your breath . . .
Hey, how about this for a retort: Sid and Geno, at long last, deserve a coach worthy of their talents. Therrien wasn't that coach. Bylsma has proven not to be that coach. Doesn't matter how good he is, how nice he is, how he's 'growing', what he did four years ago (that's what the defense of Bylsma boils down to) . . . Sid and Geno, at long last, deserve better (and, lest I forget, that doesn't just go for the coach . . . it goes for a GM enamored by bottom six players and what a defensive prospect might do in four years rather than doing right by those two).
Haha.. look dude, this is a board where folks share their opinions. So if you're hoping for me to answer all of your questions, you're going to be waiting a long time bro.
I never once volunteered to make a case for Bylsma, I was simply refuting your illogical arguement that he should be fired.
You gotta be patient - it's completely silly to make brash decisions 6 games into the season.
If we miss the playoffs? Sure - Bylsma needs to get axed, but it's still a long season and anything could happen.
So, the new standard is making the playoffs? Wow . . .
And, 'I'm not going to make a case why Bylsma is the right coach for the Pens; I'm just going to 'refute' your case why Bylsma isn't the right coach for the Pens by saying I refuted it'. Another wow . . .
FYI, I hope you know that I'm with you on Shero. I just see Bylsma as part of a problem that goes beyond personnel. I don't think Sid and Geno are buying anymore, and it's one of those things where whatever he tries out of desperation isn't going to work. There was a chance to fix it, but that was with a half dozen games or so left in last season.
At this point, I honestly don't care anymore. My concern is the uniform winning games and championships. Sid and Geno could both wear Orange for the rest of their careers if some crystal ball told me it would result in multiple championships for the Pens. I'm that heartless when it comes to the teams I root for (except for Mario and Elway. Either of those two wearing any other uniform would have probably turned me into a serial killer)
Some of us (you and I specifically) back on the NHL boards kept calling for Therrien's head because he had the team literally playing that stupid, passive aggressive style. It just didn't FIT the roster.
I don't know man. I'd want DB fired if I thought it would be that simple a fix...but it wouldn't be this time like it was when MT was fired. Like I said, at this point I want it done sooner rather than later just to satisfy my own curiosity. But I've played on enough teams, and even helped out coaching on an assistant basis (minor hockey) for the fun of it while working or playing with various degrees of talent to strongly believe that a change in strategy would do **** all. If they just don't want to play for Bylsma anymore, that's another story.
It's just not a good supporting cast. I don't like stretch passes any more than you do, but are we really going to ask for Dupuis and Kunitz to exchange 5 foot passes through the neutral zone? I'd get chest pains every time. What's disconcerting to me is that the supporting cast's ONLY way to contribute - due to lack of talent - is to go balls out every chance they get, and they're not doing that right now.
And I'll take EVERYONE more seriously on the coaching issue as long as they concede that Fleury is one of the most overrated goalies of all time
I will also bring this up again. I never understood why we didn't do...
Neal Crosby Malkin
Kunitz Staal Dupuis
TK FA Cooke
This would have given staal the increased role he wanted, and Sid + Geno would each have pretty much the best two linemates imaginable. It is so much easier to find a solid 3rd line center through the draft or FA then a great top 6 fit.
Our roster now is less talented and has no grit. Even going by NHL.com over stated ht and wt, we have only 4 forwards over 6'1. None of which play a particularly gritty brand of hockey. I think this has a lot to do with our inability to control prime real estate in the offensive zone. We are too easy to force the the perimeter.
At this point, I honestly don't care anymore. My concern is the uniform winning games and championships. Sid and Geno could both wear Orange for the rest of their careers if some crystal ball told me it would result in multiple championships for the Pens. I'm that heartless when it comes to the teams I root for (except for Mario and Elway. Either of those two wearing any other uniform would have probably turned me into a serial killer)
Some of us (you and I specifically) back on the NHL boards kept calling for Therrien's head because he had the team literally playing that stupid, passive aggressive style. It just didn't FIT the roster.
I don't know man. I'd want DB fired if I thought it would be that simple a fix...but it wouldn't be this time like it was when MT was fired. Like I said, at this point I want it done sooner rather than later just to satisfy my own curiosity. But I've played on enough teams, and even helped out coaching on an assistant basis (minor hockey) for the fun of it while working or playing with various degrees of talent to strongly believe that a change in strategy would do **** all. If they just don't want to play for Bylsma anymore, that's another story.
It's just not a good supporting cast. I don't like stretch passes any more than you do, but are we really going to ask for Dupuis and Kunitz to exchange 5 foot passes through the neutral zone? I'd get chest pains every time. What's disconcerting to me is that the supporting cast's ONLY way to contribute - due to lack of talent - is to go balls out every chance they get, and they're not doing that right now.
And I'll take EVERYONE more seriously on the coaching issue as long as they concede that Fleury is one of the most overrated goalies of all time
1) I agree about the uniform winning championships. If you told me I get to watch Sid play his career out here and we get 1 title and tons of stats/awards vs. just 2 championships in the same time - I take the titles. Every. Single. Time.
2) Fleury has a ceiling of a top tier goalie. He also has one hell of a floor, too. That's what top tier goalies do not have. They do it with consistency. Fleury's talent level is just limitless. That's the cool thing about Vokoun. He will never have as much talent as Fleury, but he will also never bomb that bad, either. I love #29, but if we can't re-sign him in order to get a better roster, I'm not crying. I think this team could win with like a Niemi or someone of a weaker talent level. It would just have to be amazing moves to get someone from Shero. But this talk is neither here nor there.
3) Kunitz is hot garbage right now. So is Matt Cooke. They are completely useless.
I will also bring this up again. I never understood why we didn't do...
Neal Crosby Malkin
Kunitz Staal Dupuis
TK FA Cooke
This would have given staal the increased role he wanted, and Sid + Geno would each have pretty much the best two linemates imaginable. It is so much easier to find a solid 3rd line center through the draft or FA then a great top 6 fit.
Our roster now is less talented and has no grit. Even going by NHL.com over stated ht and wt, we have only 4 forwards over 6'1. None of which play a particularly gritty brand of hockey. I think this has a lot to do with our inability to control prime real estate in the offensive zone. We are too easy to force the the perimeter.
I've been watching Staal at Carolina and no freaking way would I want to pay him 7-8M per. Just not a single way.
At this point, I honestly don't care anymore. My concern is the uniform winning games and championships. Sid and Geno could both wear Orange for the rest of their careers if some crystal ball told me it would result in multiple championships for the Pens. I'm that heartless when it comes to the teams I root for (except for Mario and Elway. Either of those two wearing any other uniform would have probably turned me into a serial killer)
Some of us (you and I specifically) back on the NHL boards kept calling for Therrien's head because he had the team literally playing that stupid, passive aggressive style. It just didn't FIT the roster.
I don't know man. I'd want DB fired if I thought it would be that simple a fix...but it wouldn't be this time like it was when MT was fired. Like I said, at this point I want it done sooner rather than later just to satisfy my own curiosity. But I've played on enough teams, and even helped out coaching on an assistant basis (minor hockey) for the fun of it while working or playing with various degrees of talent to strongly believe that a change in strategy would do **** all. If they just don't want to play for Bylsma anymore, that's another story.
It's just not a good supporting cast. I don't like stretch passes any more than you do, but are we really going to ask for Dupuis and Kunitz to exchange 5 foot passes through the neutral zone? I'd get chest pains every time. What's disconcerting to me is that the supporting cast's ONLY way to contribute - due to lack of talent - is to go balls out every chance they get, and they're not doing that right now.
And I'll take EVERYONE more seriously on the coaching issue as long as they concede that Fleury is one of the most overrated goalies of all time
1. Say what you will, but MT had an even bigger pile of **** to work with in his last 25 than Bylsma has had in his past 25 (look at THAT roster . . . no Gonchar, no Whitney, and Fedotenko, Dupuis, Satan, and Sykora to round out the top six).
2. The reason there's no easy fix is because the nature of the fix is so different this time. THEN, it was about taking a situation where a guy had suffocated everyone with structure and discipline and accountability and getting the right guy to loosen the chains. NOW, it's about finding a guy to introduce all of those things to an environment where there is none. THAT is a far more daunting task (and, again, that's a big reason I'm pushing for now, especially with the compressed season with only the rare three day break between games).
3. Yes, I remember once upon a time that we were alone in our evaluation of the coaching situation . . . With Bylsma, I just don't think they're buying. I don't think Sid and Geno are buying. I'll bet if you asked yourself when's the last time they went through the motions like this, you'd only have to look at some game tape from four years ago. You know, from experience, guys like Sid and Geno don't consciously quit on the coach. But, I think they see the same **** being tried again and again and again and not working, and first you try to overcompensate before subconsciously saying '**** it, doesn't matter what I do'. I just think you need to change that immediately in the same way you needed to change it four years ago. If Sid and Geno aren't on board-- and you can't watch them thinking they are-- then the rest of this conversation is academic.
Nailers vs Jackals last year: Nailers are getting outplayed until Peter Merth decides to take someone to task after a goal. The Nailers come back and win in the shootout.
Adams did have a couple shifts with Sid tonight and I cannot fathom why. It was in place of Dupers, too. I couldn't really understand what was going on. The juggling act of line changes is weird. It's okay to let a line play with each other all game. I don't think DJ saw his first shift until 10 minutes into the 1st period.
Players don't like being moved around. They like a normal shift with linemates. On the bench there is a lot of communication on what to do next time. If you never get to go out there and do it, because of line juggling, it doesn't help.
I understand certain situations putting Neal/Sid/Geno together to apply pressure, but they can double shift again. In fact, they'll probably love it. Once we go with a big line, we have like 10 shifts of mixed/matched mates. It makes no sense.
To me this is the root of the issue right now.
Everyone knows coaches are responsible for making in-game adjustments, but the players are also able do that amongst themselves. "Hey next time if we get a 3 on 2 like that just drive to the net" (general example) But how can they communicate and build on flow/chemistry shift to shift when they have no clue who they're getting sent out on the ice with. What's the point in even talking on the bench? They'd be more apt to looking back at their coach trying to figure out when their number is getting called upon. It's got to be beyond frustrating right now. It's just not the proper way to build a "team".
Anyway, not a regular on the Pens board, but my roomate is a diehard and watches every game. So by default I do as well. Good luck Thursday.
1. Say what you will, but MT had an even bigger pile of **** to work with in his last 25 than Bylsma has had in his past 25 (look at THAT roster . . . no Gonchar, no Whitney, and Fedotenko, Dupuis, Satan, and Sykora to round out the top six).
2. The reason there's no easy fix is because the nature of the fix is so different this time. THEN, it was about taking a situation where a guy had suffocated everyone with structure and discipline and accountability and getting the right guy to loosen the chains. NOW, it's about finding a guy to introduce all of those things to an environment where there is none. THAT is a far more daunting task (and, again, that's a big reason I'm pushing for now, especially with the compressed season with only the rare three day break between games).
3. Yes, I remember once upon a time that we were alone in our evaluation of the coaching situation . . . With Bylsma, I just don't think they're buying. I don't think Sid and Geno are buying. I'll bet if you asked yourself when's the last time they went through the motions like this, you'd only have to look at some game tape from four years ago. You know, from experience, guys like Sid and Geno don't consciously quit on the coach. But, I think they see the same **** being tried again and again and again and not working, and first you try to overcompensate before subconsciously saying '**** it, doesn't matter what I do'. I just think you need to change that immediately in the same way you needed to change it four years ago. If Sid and Geno aren't on board-- and you can't watch them thinking they are-- then the rest of this conversation is academic.
The parallels are frightening, there's no doubt there.
The parallels are frightening, there's no doubt there.
That's why I started ******** about Geno a few days ago.
Four years ago, Sid is the guy who went first. The spears to the groin, the visible signs of disgust, the loss of control. It wasn't that it hadn't happened before. It was that it struck me then as different. That was mid December 2008. Geno followed him about a week later in terms of starting to go through the motions.
This time, I saw the same type of thing from Geno, where it's not as if he hasn't flipped out before, but it just struck me as different. I didn't know how to describe it. Now, you've got Sid going through the motions too.
Thing is, in the next month, the Pens WILL have some good games. Remember the 'Geno put the $1000 on the board before the third period' game against Tampa. That was January 2009 (I remember saying to myself '**** you, Geno, you saved Therrien's job tonight').
Well, Sid or Geno or maybe once in a while Fleury will do just enough to save a game, maybe even two, and everyone will say 'they're back on track'.
They won't be. Over the month, the trend line will continue downward as it has over the last 25 games.
That's how it worked with Therrien. I see the same dance with Bylsma. And, as I've said, if you look at other teams, it's how it always works.
Replacing Bylsma won't be a panacea. But, it's now a part of the solution.
