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Cole's Plus/Minus: Pens vs. Isles - YIKES

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Old
01-30-2013, 08:18 AM
  #401
KIRK
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
It takes a lot for me to wig out and I'm not really there yet.

The Pens will start winning again, they will have their streaks, etc.

We will forget about this meltdown in a week or two.

The thing is, these problems we are seeing will be masked, but they will remain just below the surface and will undoubtedly spring up again at the worst time.

I know several things to be true:

DB is going no where
Shero is a good GM
DB needs to evolve as a coach and his stubbornness is his own undoing
This team will flame out in the playoffs if Shero keeps the status quo
I won't be fooled by winning streaks that these problems are fixed

The roster needs tweaked and that is on Shero. DB needs to look in the mirror and accept some blame. I never see him take accountability for losses and problems with the team publically. So I guess he can't ask his vets to be accountable when he isn't either. He needs to make a number of changes to become a legit top tier coach.

I think he can, but I'm not confident he will.

There are a number of issues I have, but I'm just going to wait and see if these two can work things out.
That's a pretty good summary of how this is going to play out. Like the impending train wreck you can see coming a mile away, you know it's coming. The only question is WHEN.

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01-30-2013, 08:18 AM
  #402
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
This is a new season under unique circumstances, and Bylsma has a better record than Therrien had in his last 25 games.

We just keep going round and round on this one. I'm confident my opinion will be vindicated here, so I won't say much more on the subject until there's been enough time for timing/rust issues to be sort out this season.

Before the year started, I don't think anyone envisioned calling for Bylsma's head after a 3-3 start. Lockout blue balls are causing impatience and a glib dismissal of the lack of prep time before this season.
No training camp? If that's what you are referring to, he's had a crap load of time to address the issues.

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01-30-2013, 08:19 AM
  #403
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
It takes a lot for me to wig out and I'm not really there yet.

The Pens will start winning again, they will have their streaks, etc.

We will forget about this meltdown in a week or two.

The thing is, these problems we are seeing will be masked, but they will remain just below the surface and will undoubtedly spring up again at the worst time.

I know several things to be true:

DB is going no where
Shero is a good GM
DB needs to evolve as a coach and his stubbornness is his own undoing
This team will flame out in the playoffs if Shero keeps the status quo
I won't be fooled by winning streaks that these problems are fixed

The roster needs tweaked and that is on Shero. DB needs to look in the mirror and accept some blame. I never see him take accountability for losses and problems with the team publically. So I guess he can't ask his vets to be accountable when he isn't either. He needs to make a number of changes to become a legit top tier coach.

I think he can, but I'm not confident he will.

There are a number of issues I have, but I'm just going to wait and see if these two can work things out.
It's not about them winning here/there, Jiggy. I want to see the team playing the right style of hockey. I'm sure they'll win games based on skill, but I'm not sold on this team come playoffs with how they are playing.

When players are saying the need to be focused and show up for 60 minutes in the pre-game and then lay an egg as bad as they did last night, I'm concerned. I hope it gets a bit darker before the dawn. I wouldn't mind a 3-4 game slide here w/ some bad hockey. It's the only way we see change.

And truthfully, I don't care what that change is. Whether it's the team re-focusing and finding passion again. Whether it's a new coach (which I do believe we are in MT stages now). Whether it's a trade (not my style). Just something that re-energizes the locker room and gets these guys hungry again. Right now, we are not a desperate hungry team. We act like we are just going to make it far because we are the Pens.

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01-30-2013, 08:21 AM
  #404
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
This is a new season under unique circumstances, and Bylsma has a better record than Therrien had in his last 25 games.

We just keep going round and round on this one. I'm confident my opinion will be vindicated here, so I won't say much more on the subject until there's been enough time for timing/rust issues to be sort out this season.

Before the year started, I don't think anyone envisioned calling for Bylsma's head after a 3-3 start. Lockout blue balls are causing impatience and a glib dismissal of the lack of prep time before this season.
Hope you're right. I just see a lack of forward depth, more than usual even, and a good but not Cup-worthy D. I think some people may be assuming that if the team gets back on their horse then talent will prevail, presumably because we have more than other teams. We really don't.

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01-30-2013, 08:24 AM
  #405
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THE SKY IS FALLING, THE SKY IS FALLING.

Seriously, we are 6 games into the season, lets step back from trading and firing everyone. Look at how the Rangers and Flyers have started. Do you think anyone with half of a brain following those teams is calling for Torts' or Laviolette's jobs? Hell no. If we fire Bylsma, the league's reaction would be the same as what happened when the Eagles fired Andy Reid.....1/2 the teams in the league would call that day to offer him a job.

Let's all take a step back for a moment and not jump off the bridge quite yet. We have had 3 solid games, 2 stinkers, and 1 so-so game. The team will work out the short comings, and all will be fine. Look at some positives so far- looks like Martin is back to playing like a 5 mil per season defenseman, and him and Orpik seem to be a great compliment to each other. Flower has played pretty well for the most part, and Vokoun seems to be a lot more solid as a second option than Johnny was last season. We are 3-3 and Crosby and Kunitz have been on a horrible stretch of games, and it's just a matter of time until they get back to normal. They are simply too good to play like this for too much longer.

Everyone breath. In the words of Walter from The Big Lebowski - "Nothing is f@#ked here Dude!"

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01-30-2013, 08:25 AM
  #406
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That was just a gutless effort. If I know Shero, he'd be fine with having poor special teams and execution as long as the work ethic is there. He'd give DB time to fine tune the team. Work ethic got us through the injuries to Sid/Geno. That completely disappeared last night. That has to hit a nerve with Shero.

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01-30-2013, 08:29 AM
  #407
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They played so bad they don't even deserve me giving them a minus. the entire game I was just yelling, "sloppy, sloppy, total slop".. absolute horrid

puck movement, sloppy
powerplay, sloppy
Fleury playing the puck, sloppy

I actually just watched the game after recording it on my DVR due to being on night shift, but I FF midway through the 2nd just because I wanted it to be over.

Can't say it enough.. absolute horrid

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01-30-2013, 08:32 AM
  #408
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No training camp? If that's what you are referring to, he's had a crap load of time to address the issues.
Yep. Very little training camp and no pre-season.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderratedBrooks44 View Post
Hope you're right. I just see a lack of forward depth, more than usual even, and a good but not Cup-worthy D. I think some people may be assuming that if the team gets back on their horse then talent will prevail, presumably because we have more than other teams. We really don't.
These can be addressed at the deadline if need be. I'm only talking about Bylsma's ability to get us out of this funk and playing good hockey again.

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01-30-2013, 08:33 AM
  #409
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Fine line between a system and inflexibility. Bylsma hasn't won big with his system and watching J Stull in Carolina, I don't see him standing at the freaken blue line tipping in the puck. No question he is also stuck with players under contracts that are limiting the team. That is on Shero and if I am the top brass, I want to know why some defensemen are playing without consequence, while Dupres is not playing developing.

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01-30-2013, 08:37 AM
  #410
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Originally Posted by ColePens View Post
It's not about them winning here/there, Jiggy. I want to see the team playing the right style of hockey. I'm sure they'll win games based on skill, but I'm not sold on this team come playoffs with how they are playing.

When players are saying the need to be focused and show up for 60 minutes in the pre-game and then lay an egg as bad as they did last night, I'm concerned. I hope it gets a bit darker before the dawn. I wouldn't mind a 3-4 game slide here w/ some bad hockey. It's the only way we see change.

And truthfully, I don't care what that change is. Whether it's the team re-focusing and finding passion again. Whether it's a new coach (which I do believe we are in MT stages now). Whether it's a trade (not my style). Just something that re-energizes the locker room and gets these guys hungry again. Right now, we are not a desperate hungry team. We act like we are just going to make it far because we are the Pens.
Last season when Crosby was out we saw them playing the right way. Two years ago without their stars they played their system to a T and were a well oiled machine.

Then they had meltdowns in the playoffs. Losing to TB was a meltdown and I won't give DB a free pass because what I saw was an inability to adjust. This team had a top PK unit both years, then they got torched in the playoffs.

People want to blame MAF for the Flyer series, cool. However, look what was going on at the other end. This team blew several leads in that series and that comes down to coaching. His team lacked discipline. Period.

I won't be fooled by this team playing their system well again. I need to see big changes in DB... Maybe showing he has a clue how to fix the PP and not thinking Neal at the point is the answer (really?). I need to see dynamic changes to the system that show me DB knows how to adjust to his opponent and exploit matchups. That he is willing to be accountable as well as his vets. I need to see appropriate roster changes, which includes legit talent in the top six and a crease clearer.

Until I see ALL of the above, no amount of seeing the Pens "getting to their game" will have me fooled.

I know it's too much to ask DB to trust his rookies so that the Pens are developing talent and valuable trade chips, but I might as well throw it in to my fantasy here.


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01-30-2013, 08:38 AM
  #411
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
This is a new season under unique circumstances, and Bylsma has a better record than Therrien had in his last 25 games.

We just keep going round and round on this one. I'm confident my opinion will be vindicated here, so I won't say much more on the subject until there's been enough time for timing/rust issues to be sort out this season.

Before the year started, I don't think anyone envisioned calling for Bylsma's head after a 3-3 start. Lockout blue balls are causing impatience and a glib dismissal of the lack of prep time before this season.
Before the year started, I don't think anyone (outside the usual suspects like me) envision Bylsma learning nothing from the last quarter of last season.

Oh, by the way, the game before the game that led to Therrien being fired was a 2-1 OT win over San Jose (Therrien actually was 3-2 in his last five games and 7-12-1 before then . . . it included a five game losing streak about five weeks before his termination, and the team was .500 after that). So, his last 25 games, with a top six that included Sykora, Satan, Dupuis, and Fedotenko AND a defense without Gonchar or Whitney AND Crosby dealing with groin injuries, Therrien went 10-14-1. Oh, and in his last 15 games, Therrien was 7-7-1.

The trend then included surprising wins against strong teams (NYR, Anaheim, San Jose) and really flat efforts other times. Sound familiar?

From the Philly game on March 18, when the Pens blew a first period lead (Sid's third game back), the Pens record is 12-10.

Frankly, this makes the case WORSE for Bylsma that I initially assumed. Therrien had SO MUCH LESS to work with and only had 1 point less than Bylsma has in his last 15 games).

Hey, thanks for making me go through that exercise. I hadn't realized how much more profound the case against Bylsma actually was.

RESULTS MATTER, AND THERRIEN IN HIS LAST 15 GAMES DID JUST ABOUT AS MUCH AS BYLSMA HAS DONE IN HIS LAST 15 GAMES, EXCEPT THERRIEN DID IT WITH A LOT LESS. YESTERDAY'S GAME WAS TORONTO REDUX, EVEN IF SHERO FAILS TO SEE ALL THE PARALLELS.

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01-30-2013, 08:39 AM
  #412
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Yep. Very little training camp and no pre-season.
It isn't like this team has been playing an embarrassing brand of hockey since March.

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01-30-2013, 08:44 AM
  #413
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RR wrote up another abortion this morning. Apparently it was New York's "speed" that did us in. Because we're such a slow hockey team most of the time; a subpar bunch of skaters really. Makes you wonder how someone who follows a team for a living can be so clueless about their strengths and weaknesses, their system, and what happened last night.

If you ever had a question about his hockey knowledge, that should answer them all. He knows a little bit about what goes on in the Penguins room and some of the personalities and that's all he knows. Literally. His hockey knowledge is for ****. Even Mark Madden makes fun of him and now I think we can say justifiably so, even though Madden himself is a tool.


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01-30-2013, 08:54 AM
  #414
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RR wrote up another abortion this morning. Apparently it was New York's "speed" that did us in. Because we're such a slow hockey team most of the time; a subpar bunch of skaters really. Makes you wonder how someone who follows a team for a living can be so clueless about their strengths and weaknesses, their system, and what happened last night.

If you ever had a question about his hockey knowledge, that should answer them all. He knows a little bit about what goes on in the Penguins room and some of the personalities and that's all he knows. Literally. His hockey knowledge is for ****.
I understand you're opinion of Rossi overall but you do understand just about everyone has been warning against teams with speed so far this year right? We were warned about Toronto's speed as well, and I've got news for you: This isn't a fast hockey team anymore, well at least not right now.

The wrap around goal happened last night because a guy got in Martin's face on a routine D to D behind the goal line. On a loose puck in the Isles zone in the 2nd period, Tavares literally skated around Kunitz and gained possession. They were getting consistently beaten to loose pucks all night. I know everyone hates Rossi but come on man, the Islanders outskated them plain and simple.

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01-30-2013, 08:54 AM
  #415
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
Before the year started, I don't think anyone envisioned calling for Bylsma's head after a 3-3 start. Lockout blue balls are causing impatience and a glib dismissal of the lack of prep time before this season.
It's not that they lost 3 games, it's how they lost those games. They were thoroughly outplayed and outcoached by the Jets, Leafs, and Islanders, losing by a combined score of 13-5. These weren't 2-1 nailbiters against Boston/Chicago/SJ, these were those "men against boys" type games where we came out on the wrong end.

Getting pretty sick of the "it's only 6 games" BS. It's not 6 games. It's the last few weeks of last season heading into the playoffs where we were utterly embarrassed. It's the TB/Montreal series the 2 years before that where it became obvious that other teams had figured us out, and Bylsma either wouldn't or couldn't make adjustments. Enough already.

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01-30-2013, 08:56 AM
  #416
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01-30-2013, 08:58 AM
  #417
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You really need to stop beating that drumb. Not Fleury's fault the team can't manage the puck or that the PP is an embarrassment.

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01-30-2013, 09:02 AM
  #418
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THE SKY IS FALLING, THE SKY IS FALLING.

Seriously, we are 6 games into the season, lets step back from trading and firing everyone. Look at how the Rangers and Flyers have started. Do you think anyone with half of a brain following those teams is calling for Torts' or Laviolette's jobs? Hell no.
Not comparable situations because as I said earlier, this wasn't about "a team finding its legs" or adapting to a new situation on short notice or whatever. The Penguins did not attempt to win the game last night. Whatever we can say about Philly and New York's losses [edit - the Flyers lost one game badly, both teams had a 3G loss, prob with empty netter included], we can't say that about them. The effort was there. Nor can we suggest that Lavs and Torts have been making the same mistakes over and over with their personnel for the last two years roughly, all the while refusing to change the system.

Coaches like Torts and Lavs make adjustments when stuff goes bad; they change things up beyond just juggling lines (which is Bylsma's only trick for changing things -- other than the retarded Neal on the Point thing he's done with the PP -- is moving guys around and calling guys up).

Hate to say it but both of those guys would've taken last Penguins past the first round (and probably past the 2nd round) each of the last 3 years. Torts especially always gets the most out of guys as long as there aren't big egos in the way, which we don't really have that problem AFAIK.


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01-30-2013, 09:08 AM
  #419
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Honest, rational discussion of issues that have affected this team for while is not in the realm of chicken littles screaming "the sky is falling." If you disagree, that's absolutely fine, but come up with something better than ad hominems.

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01-30-2013, 09:08 AM
  #420
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I understand you're opinion of Rossi overall but you do understand just about everyone has been warning against teams with speed so far this year right? We were warned about Toronto's speed as well, and I've got news for you: This isn't a fast hockey team anymore, well at least not right now.
A) Who is everyone? Paul Steigerwald and RR? Media? Have you seen any serious commentators -- CBC or TSN say speed is a concern for us going into this season or coming out of last season? I haven't. In fact I've never heard a serious hockey mind say anything about our team speed. Are we the fastest team out there? No. But we have better than average skaters on this team across the board and premiere talent in some spots. That's enough to guarantee last night should never happen the way it did. Not talking about losing here; every team gets shellacked now and then. I'm talking about HOW we lost, and how we lost to TOR and WPG too (though those games looked like bronze medal efforts compared to last night).

B) What I understand is that Crosby, Malkin, Dupuis, Kennedy, Letang, Despres, Niskanen are all very good skaters and that for their size and/or role, Kunitz, Neal, Sutter, Cooke, Vitale are decent skaters. And that prior to these absolute half-assed efforts we never seemed to be deeply concerned about our speed before.

C) What happened last night was not "this team really put in the effort but just was not fast enough". This was a total LACK of effort. A brain fart. A sand-bag. That's why for someone like Steigerwald or RR to sit there and attempt to "analyze" it and come up with "speed is the problem" is a ****ing joke. There's nothing to analyze because there was no effort out there last night. That was a team who had given up on their coach / system / whatever you want to call it.

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01-30-2013, 09:09 AM
  #421
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I understand you're opinion of Rossi overall but you do understand just about everyone has been warning against teams with speed so far this year right? We were warned about Toronto's speed as well, and I've got news for you: This isn't a fast hockey team anymore, well at least not right now.

The wrap around goal happened last night because a guy got in Martin's face on a routine D to D behind the goal line. On a loose puck in the Isles zone in the 2nd period, Tavares literally skated around Kunitz and gained possession. They were getting consistently beaten to loose pucks all night. I know everyone hates Rossi but come on man, the Islanders outskated them plain and simple.
Martin didnt have anyone in his face. He had time to step out from behind his net, but passed the puck into Cizikas's shin pad and the rookie had momentum going fwd and took the puck on a wrap around.

MAF just played it very....odd.

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01-30-2013, 09:10 AM
  #422
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You really need to stop beating that drumb. Not Fleury's fault the team can't manage the puck or that the PP is an embarrassment.
I can't stop.. our goalie leaks like he drank a tub of used mexican bath water. the team in front of him plays like they know it too. i can see these things.

Vokoun is the hope.

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01-30-2013, 09:12 AM
  #423
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Martin didnt have anyone in his face. He had time to step out from behind his net, but passed the puck into Cizikas's shin pad and the rookie had momentum going fwd and took the puck on a wrap around.

MAF just played it very....odd.
you know what chaffs my willy? Martin definitely made a mistake there (and so did MAF), but i thought Martin was fine the rest of the night and has been good all year, but one mistake and all we got was 'same old piece of **** paul martin." okayyyyyyyy guys, he's allowed one mistake. Yes, it sucked, but even the best players make an error at times.

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01-30-2013, 09:13 AM
  #424
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Martin didnt have anyone in his face. He had time to step out from behind his net, but passed the puck into Cizikas's shin pad and the rookie had momentum going fwd and took the puck on a wrap around.

MAF just played it very....odd.
I was screaming my head off at Fleury for that one, he completely commited to only protecting one side of the net. The pass out front isn't his job, he has to protect the net. I mean its something you teach to young golies every day, how to manage a player behind the net. That goal was hideous.

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01-30-2013, 09:26 AM
  #425
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If Bylsma doesn't learn from his mistakes then he needs to go. He has 20 games I say to learn.

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