HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Metropolitan Division > Pittsburgh Penguins
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Cole's Plus/Minus: Pens vs. Isles - YIKES

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
01-30-2013, 10:18 AM
  #451
Ogelthorpe
Who do you play for?
 
Ogelthorpe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Country: United States
Posts: 1,506
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shady Machine View Post
That goal was Fleury's fault. You don't go down and swing your stick out like that. You hug the post while crouching and have your stick out but not swinging. Fleury totally committed to that side of the net for no apparent reason. It was bad.
The only thing Fleury did wrong, was get caught up and not get over. The down technique with the extended stick, (known as a reverse LV in the goaltending world) is a fine technique. A guy named Johnathan Quick uses it quite frequently. (It seemed to work out OK for him last year)

Look, **** happens sometimes. He didn't get over that time, plain and simple, but we've seen him make that save 100 times.

It's funny how when we lose he is some scrub goalie who has to go. However, when he has a game like he did against Ottawa, all the haters crawl back into their holes and wait for us to lose again so they can play the blame game again. He is like any other player, he's going to have bad moments and bad games. When he does, I tell it like it is, but the haters never can step up and say the opposite when he plays well.

And people wonder why we get labeled a fair weather fan base?


Last edited by Homeland Security: 01-30-2013 at 12:18 PM. Reason: Let the profanity filter do its job.
Ogelthorpe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-30-2013, 10:20 AM
  #452
Ogelthorpe
Who do you play for?
 
Ogelthorpe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Country: United States
Posts: 1,506
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
Yeah, when I think Sid and Geno, I think stretch pass, chip, chase, recycle.
You need to think again!

Ogelthorpe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-30-2013, 10:21 AM
  #453
Shady Machine
Registered User
 
Shady Machine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 12,376
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
Shady, I wrote this in the Strait thread. Therrien's last 15 games, the Pens were 7-7-1 (the Pens are 8-7 in Bylsma's last 15 games).

Those Pens had Satan, Sykora, Dupuis, and Feds in the top six, no Gonchar or Whitney, and Sid hobbled with groin issues. And, the game before the Toronto debacle that got Therrien canned, the Pens beat San Jose. Yes, Therrien had much less to work with than Bylsma, which is something it's only fair to note.

Back then, the streak included games where the Pens really would step up against teams you wouldn't expect (wins again San Jose, Anaheim, the Rangers), and you'd start to think 'progress'. Then, they'd lay eggs against team's they should steamroll (or at least play competitively). One night, Sid and/or Geno would save the day against the top team, and the next one it would seem like they were going through the motions. The coach's press conferences would include a tone that was increasingly lost. Line juggling became a crutch. The swings from good to bad cop and back, along with the 'let's try this approach to practice'.

Any of it sound familiar to you?
I agree with you for sure. The parallels are certainly there. I just know that Bylsma won't get canned this early and I also believe, unlike Cole and a few others, that this roster needs an upgrade to be a serious contender regardless of the coach.

Shady Machine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-30-2013, 10:21 AM
  #454
JimsDoors
Registered User
 
JimsDoors's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Tri-State County
Country: United States
Posts: 1,837
vCash: 500
Someone needs to tell Geno that over in the KHL he might have been able to skate with the puck into the zone going around / through three guys who are waiting for him, but it hasn't worked the 3-4 times he's tried it this season over here.

So frustrating to watch him do this which leads to an opponent take away everytime.


Last edited by JimsDoors: 01-30-2013 at 10:27 AM.
JimsDoors is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-30-2013, 10:21 AM
  #455
cassius
Registered User
 
cassius's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 9,912
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jag68Sid87 View Post
That's just it. The problem starts with management. How on earth can a team with both Sidney Crosby and Evgeni Malkin on it NOT be built around those two guys? Instead, we're building around a bipolar goalie and a plethora of puck-moving defensemen.

Until we get somebody who is going to recognize this as the fundamental organizational flaw, we're going nowhere.

Sure, Bylsma puts a system together that caters to Matt Cooke. But as long as Shero continues to ignore his two superstars on draft day and in free agency, then all the coach is doing is following up on the 'plan', really.

They both need to go.
No way. If anything, this team simply needs more grinders and puck moving defensemen.

Seriously though, it's a shame that Kunitz has fallen off so bad because he used to be a perfect fit with Crosby's game. With the way he is playing right now, Kunitz looks like a borderline 3rd liner at best.

As it stands right now, we have exactly 1 top-six winger and the 2 best centers in the league. I can't blame our lack of success purely on coaching, some of that blame has to be directed towards Shero for creating a roster with sub-optimal personnel.

I have talked for years about how the Penguins lack a net front presence guy (ala Guerin/Malone), yet there doesn't seem to be an urgency to fill this need.

Our PP has killed us for the past few years and it's the same story this year - no results whatsoever.

It's just an odd coincidence that our PP was more lethal than ever when we had someone creating havok in front of the crease. Malone/Guerin opened up a lot of space and gave the PP an entirely different dynamic.

cassius is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-30-2013, 10:22 AM
  #456
Shady Machine
Registered User
 
Shady Machine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 12,376
vCash: 500
Agreed. Malkin needs to stop the dipsy-doodle **** every time he has the puck.

Shady Machine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-30-2013, 10:23 AM
  #457
#66
Registered User
 
#66's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Country: United States
Posts: 10,290
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jag68Sid87 View Post
That's just it. The problem starts with management. How on earth can a team with both Sidney Crosby and Evgeni Malkin on it NOT be built around those two guys? Instead, we're building around a bipolar goalie and a plethora of puck-moving defensemen.

Until we get somebody who is going to recognize this as the fundamental organizational flaw, we're going nowhere.

Sure, Bylsma puts a system together that caters to Matt Cooke. But as long as Shero continues to ignore his two superstars on draft day and in free agency, then all the coach is doing is following up on the 'plan', really.

They both need to go.
And those PMD's do nothing but ring the puck around the boards. Every once in a while we see Letang skate the puck up but thats it. We don't see an overly great transition or break away passes. What are all these puck movers really good for? That leads right back into the draft. The Pens are set up for years with this garbage.

The funny thing is that with all of these role players, the Pens aren't even getting pucks deep and beating up defensemen anymore. They're losing the pucks in the neutral zone and way up high in the offensive zone. Its Sid and Malkin leading the way with those turnovers too.

#66 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-30-2013, 10:24 AM
  #458
Mr Jiggyfly
Registered User
 
Mr Jiggyfly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 14,443
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragamuffin Gunner View Post
I don't think he expected Martin to just let him walk around the net freely and there was a guy (16) wide open in the slot because Orpik hadn't recovered yet who was a bigger threat to score than the guy behind the net..

Watching the play again, Martin loses the puck and doesn't even challenge to get it back, him and Orpik just go the front of the net to cover the same guy and completely forget about the puck.

http://video.nhl.com/videocenter/con...3,2,83&lang=en
Cizikas had all of his momentum going towards the puck and Martin was going the other way. He played it correctly after his mistake... You never should get caught chasing behind the net in that situation. You recover to the front of your net and he did.

Martin only made one mistake there and MAF got caught in the net I think.

Mr Jiggyfly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-30-2013, 10:26 AM
  #459
Ogelthorpe
Who do you play for?
 
Ogelthorpe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Country: United States
Posts: 1,506
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by cassius View Post
No way. If anything, this team simply needs more grinders and puck moving defensemen.

Seriously though, it's a shame that Kunitz has fallen off so bad because he used to be a perfect fit with Crosby's game. With the way he is playing right now, Kunitz looks like a borderline 3rd liner at best.

As it stands right now, we have exactly 1 top-six winger and the 2 best centers in the league. I can't blame our lack of success purely on coaching, some of that blame has to be directed towards Shero for creating a roster with sub-optimal personnel.

I have talked for years about how the Penguins lack a net front presence guy (ala Guerin/Malone), yet there doesn't seem to be an urgency to fill this need.

Our PP has killed us for the past few years and it's the same story this year - no results whatsoever.

It's just an odd coincidence that our PP was more lethal than ever when we had someone creating havok in front of the crease. Malone/Guerin opened up a lot of space and gave the PP an entirely different dynamic.
Cassius, don't you know you are not supposed to make sense on here? This has probably been one of the better posts in this entire thread.

Ogelthorpe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-30-2013, 10:28 AM
  #460
Shady Machine
Registered User
 
Shady Machine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 12,376
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogelthorpe View Post
Cassius, don't you know you are not supposed to make sense on here? This has probably been one of the better posts in this entire thread.
You won't see many here disputing that we need better wingers. None of that takes away from Bylsma's weaknesses as a coach.

Shady Machine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-30-2013, 10:29 AM
  #461
KIRK
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 27,130
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shady Machine View Post
Agreed. Malkin needs to stop the dipsy-doodle **** every time he has the puck.
Of course, it's hard (not just for him but also for Sid) NOT to do that when there's next to no puck support out there, even, inexcusably, on the PP.

I wish Sid and Geno didn't dipsy-doodle so much. I also wish they didn't play for a coach who left them no other choice.

KIRK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-30-2013, 10:30 AM
  #462
Shady Machine
Registered User
 
Shady Machine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 12,376
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogelthorpe View Post
The only thing Fleury did wrong, was get caught up and not get over. The down technique with the extended stick, (known as a reverse LV in the goaltending world) is a fine technique. A guy named Johnathan Quick uses it quite frequently. (It seemed to work out OK for him last year)

Look, **** happens sometimes. He didn't get over that time, plain and simple, but we've seen him make that save 100 times.

It's funny how when we lose he is some scrub goalie who has to go. However, when he has a game like he did against Ottawa, all the haters crawl back into their holes and wait for us to lose again so they can play the blame game again. He is like any other player, he's going to have bad moments and bad games. When he does, I tell it like it is, but the haters never can step up and say the opposite when he plays well.

And people wonder why we get labeled a fair weather fan base?
I never blamed the game on Fleury nor did I say he needed to go. I simply said he made a **** play on that goal and should have had it. No reason to go down there and commit to one side. You're right **** happens. The whole team played terrible, Fleury included. He has been strong in his other starts so I'm giving him a pass.


Last edited by Homeland Security: 01-30-2013 at 12:19 PM. Reason: Edited QP
Shady Machine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-30-2013, 10:30 AM
  #463
Ogelthorpe
Who do you play for?
 
Ogelthorpe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Country: United States
Posts: 1,506
vCash: 500
Let me get this straight. Malkin and Crosby are not supposed to ever chip and chase, yet many people complain about them trying to skate it through too many people. What other option is there when the opposing team stacks the blue line on your entry?

Ogelthorpe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-30-2013, 10:31 AM
  #464
Ogelthorpe
Who do you play for?
 
Ogelthorpe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Country: United States
Posts: 1,506
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shady Machine View Post
I never blamed the game on Fleury nor did I say he needed to go. I simply said he made a **** play on that goal and should have had it. No reason to go down there and commit to one side. You're right **** happens. The whole team played terrible, Fleury included. He has been strong in his other starts so I'm giving him a pass.
I'm ok with that assessment.

Ogelthorpe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-30-2013, 10:32 AM
  #465
KIRK
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 27,130
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shady Machine View Post
You won't see many here disputing that we need better wingers. None of that takes away from Bylsma's weaknesses as a coach.
Shady, go read my post in the Strait thread about the last 20 or so games of Therrien and Bylsma's last 22 games.

Scary *****. Comparable record actually for the last 15 games. And, Therrien had a top six with Feds, Satan, Sykora, and Dupuis (oh, and no Gonchar or Whitney and Sid not himself because of groin issues).

It is SO PATHETIC these people excusing the job Bylsma is doing based on talent. The ******* players tuned out Therrien, and HE did as much in his last 15 games as Bylsma has done in his last 15, except Therrien did it with a lot less, and that's not even an argument.

KIRK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-30-2013, 10:32 AM
  #466
KIRK
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 27,130
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogelthorpe View Post
Let me get this straight. Malkin and Crosby are not supposed to ever chip and chase, yet many people complain about them trying to skate it through too many people. What other option is there when the opposing team stacks the blue line on your entry?
So let me get this straight, Malkin and Crosby aren't even supposed to bring the puck up ice with adequate support, even on the PP?

KIRK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-30-2013, 10:33 AM
  #467
#66
Registered User
 
#66's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Country: United States
Posts: 10,290
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
Cizikas had all of his momentum going towards the puck and Martin was going the other way. He played it correctly after his mistake... You never should get caught chasing behind the net in that situation. You recover to the front of your net and he did.

Martin only made one mistake there and MAF got caught in the net I think.
IMO thats a huge part of MAFs flaws and that stems back to a garbage system. MAF is trying to play the pass, the puck and cover the back door. If a goalie knows that he can focus on the puck and the defense will cover the back door, I think that makes him a better goalie.

I'm not sure that any goalie would play well when he has to go side to side as much as MAF.

#66 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-30-2013, 10:35 AM
  #468
KIRK
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 27,130
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shady Machine View Post
I agree with you for sure. The parallels are certainly there. I just know that Bylsma won't get canned this early and I also believe, unlike Cole and a few others, that this roster needs an upgrade to be a serious contender regardless of the coach.
I don't think anyone really doesn't think this roster is fine as is if the Pens aspire to be a serious cup contender. But, unlike others, we don't see one organizational flaw excusing another.

KIRK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-30-2013, 10:38 AM
  #469
Ragamuffin Gunner
Lost in The Flood
 
Ragamuffin Gunner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Boston
Country: United States
Posts: 15,643
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shady Machine View Post
That goal was Fleury's fault. You don't go down and swing your stick out like that. You hug the post while crouching and have your stick out but not swinging. Fleury totally committed to that side of the net for no apparent reason. It was bad.
Watch the play again and think about it from MAF's POV.

The puck is turned over and there is Reasoner in the slot uncovered with the one-timer cocked. MAF puts out his stick to break up the pass or force Cizikas not to pass it and buy some time to recover. Cizikas doesn't pass it and goes for the wraparound uncovered because Martin, Orpik and Vitale all crash onto Reasoner. MAF gets a little caught on something going to his left and has the puck bounce off him into the net.

Ragamuffin Gunner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-30-2013, 10:38 AM
  #470
Shady Machine
Registered User
 
Shady Machine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 12,376
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogelthorpe View Post
Let me get this straight. Malkin and Crosby are not supposed to ever chip and chase, yet many people complain about them trying to skate it through too many people. What other option is there when the opposing team stacks the blue line on your entry?
It's not that they aren't supposed to chip and chase because they have done far too much dipsy doodle **** as I mentioned before. The problem is lack of puck support on the breakout. The preferred breakout seems to be turn and get the puck and fire it up the wall to the winger at the red line who chips it in. Every damn time. The breakout should be coming out of your zone with speed and support and letting it run through Sid and Geno.

And don't even get me started on the PP entries. James Neal as a primary puck carrier? Are you kidding me Dan? It's just so ass backwards.

Shady Machine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-30-2013, 10:40 AM
  #471
Mr Jiggyfly
Registered User
 
Mr Jiggyfly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 14,443
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by #66 View Post
IMO thats a huge part of MAFs flaws and that stems back to a garbage system. MAF is trying to play the pass, the puck and cover the back door. If a goalie knows that he can focus on the puck and the defense will cover the back door, I think that makes him a better goalie.

I'm not sure that any goalie would play well when he has to go side to side as much as MAF.
MAF has always had problems when the play is behind the net. Montreal and especially TB exploited that weakness in the playoffs.

I'm not overly familiar with the specifics of goaltending beyond the basics, so I don't usually criticize MAF, unless it is obvious stuff.

Mr Jiggyfly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-30-2013, 10:40 AM
  #472
Ragamuffin Gunner
Lost in The Flood
 
Ragamuffin Gunner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Boston
Country: United States
Posts: 15,643
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
Guess you aren't having a good morning, between the loss last night and Grigs getting a goal.
I didn't even know about Grig's goal TBH.

But it doesn't make me feel very good that he could be in the Pend top 9 right now.

Ragamuffin Gunner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-30-2013, 10:42 AM
  #473
KIRK
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 27,130
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragamuffin Gunner View Post
I didn't even know about Grig's goal TBH.

But it doesn't make me feel very good that he could be in the Pend top 9 right now.
Well, if it makes you feel better, it doesn't take much to be Pens top 9 right now, unless of course you're Bennett (or even Vitale, but I digress), which is to say, Grigs would NOT have started the season with the Pens.

KIRK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-30-2013, 10:42 AM
  #474
cassius
Registered User
 
cassius's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 9,912
vCash: 500
You have to point the finger at Bylsma - he isn't motivating the players to put forth their best effort. They looked flat throughout the whole game and seemingly every player from the top down was constantly turning the puck over. There are bad games when the bounces just don't go your way, sure, but that type of lackadaisical performance is simply unacceptable.

However, Shero deserves some criticism since he's ultimately responsible for putting this roster together. It's pretty evident that we have the wrong players and that the talent level isn't there.

Building around fringe defensemen like Michalek/Martin was a very huge strategic blunder. Instead of trying to fortify an inconsistent goalie with soft defensemen, he should have been surrounding his playmakers with talent.

When you have the best 2 players in the league, conventional wisdom would suggest that you should surround them with talented wingers in order to maximize their productivity. (i.e. if you have two generational talents who have a track record of making their linemates better, you double down on wingers.)

Shero's philosophy to invest in grinders and defense is almost the complete opposite approach.


Last edited by cassius: 01-30-2013 at 10:48 AM.
cassius is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-30-2013, 10:43 AM
  #475
Mr Jiggyfly
Registered User
 
Mr Jiggyfly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 14,443
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragamuffin Gunner View Post
I didn't even know about Grig's goal TBH.

But it doesn't make me feel very good that he could be in the Pend top 9 right now.
Oops.

Well if it makes you feel any better DB would of sent him back anyway until he learned to grind **** out.

Mr Jiggyfly is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:28 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.