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Cole's Plus/Minus: Pens vs. Isles - YIKES

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Old
01-30-2013, 10:52 PM
  #576
Rowdy Roddy Peeper
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zhenyas most fly rep View Post
??
When you said


I'm positive you were implying "at the moment we faced them" or your post doesn't make any sense.
It doesn't matter these team were better on paper that those we faced after, they were, at the moment we met them, the two worst teams we have played against so far...
Don't pretend to know what I'm implying.

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01-30-2013, 10:56 PM
  #577
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
Don't pretend to know what I'm implying.
Don't worry, I had already covered that possibility.

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01-30-2013, 11:08 PM
  #578
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Originally Posted by zhenyas most fly rep View Post
Don't worry, I had already covered that possibility.
You haven't covered anything.

Philly and NYR are contenders. The fact that they didn't play us as well as other, lesser teams on a given day has no bearing on their established quality.

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01-30-2013, 11:15 PM
  #579
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
When Geno says today, about the PP, 'we want to do whatever works' and 'it's tough' and something like 'we'll see', I don't think his comments are limited to the PP. To me, that sounds like he's talking more generally and with a bit of loss for understanding of what's happening (and, I'll bet you Sid feels the same way).

The last time I saw them like this was January 2009. I remember listening to interviews with people talking about how you'd go into the locker room after a spanking on the ice, where Sid and Geno would play like they did last night, and Sid and Geno would just have looks on their faces that spoke to bewilderment that any of what was happening could be happening and complete loss of understanding of or explanation for why.
An alternative view:

Quote:
He admitted Tuesday that it has been a tough transition back to the NHL, where he is playing his seventh season, primarily because of the smaller rinks in North America.

"It's so much tougher," Malkin said Wednesday after practice at Consol Energy Center. "The bigger ice is so much different. You need a little bit of games to have more confidence on the [smaller] ice. I feel pretty good. I have lots of scoring chances, but I'm not scoring. A couple more goals scored, and I'll have more confidence."
http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/...#ixzz2JWk9To9c

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01-30-2013, 11:23 PM
  #580
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
You haven't covered anything.

Philly and NYR are contenders. The fact that they didn't play us as well as other, lesser teams on a given day has no bearing on their established quality.
We were lucky to wing against the Flyers in the opener, and we played two good periods against the Rangers where we got some flukey goals to put the game beyond doubt early.
And no, the Rangers not playing well that day doesn't change that is is likely a contender, but them playing poorly does matter when attaching significance to our win.

Ultimately I think you are looking at the box score when saying how good we were in those games rather than evaluating what we showed on the ice. Easy to do also, what with our enthusiasm and hopes post-lockout. When you win, one can paper over the things that didn't work because ultimately when you win all is good. Then the tendency is for most people to be too rosy, just as the tendency is to be too negative and down when we lose. To me, in the early stages of any season what matters is how we play, not the results. If we play well results will come.

Considering that this sample of arguably good hockey this season is miniscule, I choose to consider the lameness showed in the playoffs, the stretch of games leading into the playoffs, and the majority of our start this season, as much stronger indicators.

Particularly as the issues that are dogging us are surely not strangers to any of us.

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01-30-2013, 11:24 PM
  #581
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
You haven't covered anything.
Hate quoting myself but "...or your post doesn't make any sense." that's what I meant by covered, well, I was just messing with you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
Philly and NYR are contenders. The fact that they didn't play us as well as other, lesser teams on a given day has no bearing on their established quality.
I never said Flyers and Rangers aren't contenders or quality teams, my point was, the day we faced them they were the worst team we have had to face so far in this early season.

Look, I don't really know what we're arguing about, I'm almost positive we are in agreement.

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01-30-2013, 11:29 PM
  #582
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
Does anybody think Laviolette should be fired?

The Flyers' record over the last 25 games is 10-14-1.

How about Tortorella?

The Rags are 12-13 in their last 25.

Sometimes we look at our team in a bubble and ignore what's happening with the other supposedly elite teams in the division.
We can agree that the Flyers and Rangers reached their sub par record in much different fashion from the Pens?

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01-30-2013, 11:48 PM
  #583
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Originally Posted by IcedCapp View Post
We can agree that the Flyers and Rangers reached their sub par record in much different fashion from the Pens?
I don't think we can. But I'm sure some people will.

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01-30-2013, 11:49 PM
  #584
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Originally Posted by zhenyas most fly rep View Post
I never said Flyers and Rangers aren't contenders or quality teams, my point was, the day we faced them they were the worst team we have had to face so far in this early season.

Look, I don't really know what we're arguing about, I'm almost positive we are in agreement.
Our playing well couldn't have played a part in that, could it?

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01-30-2013, 11:55 PM
  #585
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
I don't think we can. But I'm sure some people will.
ok sir, would you like to take this outside?


(I fully admit I don't watch every Flyers and Rangers game, but I've never personally seen them sleep walk through a 60 minute contest like the Pens did on that fateful night against the Islanders)

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01-31-2013, 12:34 AM
  #586
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
Our playing well couldn't have played a part in that, could it?
Not in my opinion.

The Flyers, as the following games have shown, have some pretty big issues.(coaching, goaltending, defense, players underperforming, special teams..). Plus, we dominated them only one period, it was more like a crappy win.

The Rangers, kinda like us last night(not to that extent though), just didn't come to play. From Lundqvist giving up softies (by his standards) and their defense in disarray to most of their offense out of sync. Don't get me wrong, the Pens did well, capitalizing on their mistakes and their apathy, they most likely made they look worse than they really were but it was a bad night for them regardless of the opponent and it doesn't change the fact that, IMO, on those nights, these teams were the worst we have had to face so far.


Last edited by zhenyas most fly rep: 01-31-2013 at 08:48 AM.
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01-31-2013, 12:44 AM
  #587
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Our goals so far not counting an empty netter:

2, 6, 2, 2, 1, 1.

That's what we've gotten so far and we all know that last "1" is a joke. The forward lines are in disarray, at least as much as they can be with Crosby and Malkin on the team.

We're missing a top 6 forward (any will do), Kunitz needs to get his ass in gear, and the third line needs to be more of a scoring threat. That will fix a lot of what ails them IMO.

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01-31-2013, 08:25 AM
  #588
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
But...it was working. We beat two quality division rivals right off the bat - the two best teams we've faced yet - and had stretches of utterly dominant play during those wins.

Not only that, but it's hardly like Sid and Geno are the only ones making elementary mistakes out there. Most of the forwards are just making goofy decisions. Kunitz, Neal, Sutter, you name it...and they're all smart hockey players. I don't think contagious idiocy is a very likely answer.

Rust, timing, and consistency seem like much more likely culprits.



They do explain why though: execution. It's not the answer as often as Bylsma trots it out but I think it's a valid reason here, especially given the circumstances.

If our players start making and receiving simple passes and bringing the requisite compete level, and we're still struggling, then I think we can shift focus to the coaching.

You can't justifiably blame a system if it's not being executed as planned.
Unless of course the system is too easy for teams that game plan to defend and the coach is too slow to adapt.

OR

Unless the coach doesn't have the right personnel to execute and still insists upon his system instead of tailoring it to suit the talent he does have.

But, neither or those are even plausible, right?

It's comical. Four years ago, the answer was to 'try harder' and 'do more'. Today, it is 'get to our game' and 'execute'.

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01-31-2013, 08:36 AM
  #589
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
Any chance the team hits the over because they start executing better and playing cohesively, haha?

My problem with the blanket "Blame Bylsma" mantra is that completely independent of coaching/systems, the players themselves have looked like crap. They're making dumb decisions, giving garbage efforts, and can't handle the puck to save their lives. No matter how good a system might be, it would fail with the performances the Pens players have given so far this season.

It's not like the players have looked tuned-up and are giving 100% and falling short because of the system. The players are failing in good part because they personally haven't been up to snuff - and a good portion of that could very well be because of the extenuating circumstances of the start of this season.
Much of what your are describing is on the players, but some of it falls on coaching. The effort they gave last game I blame on Bylsma. At some point the coach needs to wake his team the **** up. You can't always take the calm "we didn't get to our game" approach. That and his personnel decisions have been suspect and the line switching is so damn stupid.

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01-31-2013, 12:17 PM
  #590
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderratedBrooks44 View Post
Our goals so far not counting an empty netter:

2, 6, 2, 2, 1, 1.

That's what we've gotten so far and we all know that last "1" is a joke. The forward lines are in disarray, at least as much as they can be with Crosby and Malkin on the team.

We're missing a top 6 forward (any will do), Kunitz needs to get his ass in gear, and the third line needs to be more of a scoring threat. That will fix a lot of what ails them IMO.
Anyone who thinks our offense is just fine needs to read this post, particularly the number of goals we've scored thus far in the season.

A team that has Crosby and Malkin on it (plus a 40-goal scorer in Neal) should not be struggling this badly to score goals. If you take away the goals that Crosby or Malkin had a part in, have we even scored a single goal yet?

That speaks volumes about the lack of scoring this team has outside the Big Two.

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01-31-2013, 12:27 PM
  #591
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Originally Posted by IcedCapp View Post
We can agree that the Flyers and Rangers reached their sub par record in much different fashion from the Pens?
I don't think it has been much different, that is just reaching. Besides, I would rather have a winning record and look awful In a couple games, than be pretty consistent but have a losing record.

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01-31-2013, 12:31 PM
  #592
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I don't think it has been much different, that is just reaching. Besides, I would rather have a winning record and look awful In a couple games, than be pretty consistent but have a losing record.
How am I reaching? If the Pens were having chemistry issues or just looked rusty or out of sync, I wouldn't give a rats rear end (which is definitely something that was plaguing the Rangers early). The Pens looked like they were doing a bad impression of going through the motions.

That's where my issue is. There's the Bylsma thread and people are asking how long they give him. I'd give him the entire season and more if it looked like players were buying into everything. My whole problem is, they don't look that way.

AND I'M NOT REACHING, I NEVER OVERREACT.!!!!!

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01-31-2013, 12:51 PM
  #593
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderratedBrooks44 View Post
Our goals so far not counting an empty netter:

2, 6, 2, 2, 1, 1.

That's what we've gotten so far and we all know that last "1" is a joke. The forward lines are in disarray, at least as much as they can be with Crosby and Malkin on the team.

We're missing a top 6 forward (any will do), Kunitz needs to get his ass in gear, and the third line needs to be more of a scoring threat. That will fix a lot of what ails them IMO.
change the 6 to a 5

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01-31-2013, 01:18 PM
  #594
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Originally Posted by Sidney the Kidney View Post
Anyone who thinks our offense is just fine needs to read this post, particularly the number of goals we've scored thus far in the season.

A team that has Crosby and Malkin on it (plus a 40-goal scorer in Neal) should not be struggling this badly to score goals. If you take away the goals that Crosby or Malkin had a part in, have we even scored a single goal yet?

That speaks volumes about the lack of scoring this team has outside the Big Two.
I certainly don't think the offense is fine. That said, I don't think the defense is fine, either. And for whatever reason, I'm more concerned about the defense. This group we have won't last. Offensively, if the two superstars get hot we can survive. But ultimately, once the playoffs roll around, we'll look like Swiss cheese again.

Oh, and I still have no faith in Fleury. He still is jittery and un-trustworthy.

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