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Cole's Plus/Minus: Pens vs. Isles - YIKES

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Old
01-29-2013, 10:52 PM
  #176
domaug*
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Originally Posted by Pancakes View Post
If they do fire Bylsma I think I'd prefer a veteran coach to someone like John Hynes. I don't know what ones are out there though.
if it's Bylsma getting replaced by Hynes, it's only a move made for the sake of making a move.

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01-29-2013, 10:53 PM
  #177
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Ron Francis as GM? Hmmm. That is an intriguing thought. I see him more as GM material than coaching material, and I think he went back to being the ass't GM from ass't coach since last season.

This roster is good enough to win a Stanley Cup? Please. This roster is nothing like the '09 roster. Orpik, Cooke, Kunitz, Dupuis, Adams are all much older in hockey years than they were then, and less effective. We have no shutdown defense. A lot of our overall grit, toughness and ATTITUDE is gone. Our two superstars aren't playing like superstars. But even if they were, we have the same damn holes as we've always had. We haven't tweaked anything in four years. We just expect different results. Just cuz.

It should not be a novelty that Bylsma sucks. He's been getting out-coached for four years running. Old news. But beyond that, we have to get rid of this entire Nashville-oriented system. This blue-collar hockey is assinine with Crosby and Malkin and Letang on the roster. Start developing TALENT for christ's sake. All around the league, there's an infusion of youth and talent. We infuse Tanner Glass.

I see a Montreal team now with major ATTITUDE. That used to be us. We used to have team toughness. We used to push the play. We used to outskill teams AND outwork them. We have none of that now. We've lost so many key members of our Cup team, and kept around for too long so many others. That's on the GM, folks.

There is no easy fix, here. But we should start by getting rid of some of the '09 Cup residue. Goodbye, Craig Adams. So long, Brooks Orpik. Au revoir, Pascal Dupuis. Matt Cooke. Oh, and you're still mediocre at best, Marc-Andre Fleury.

I'm sorry, but this roster isn't Cup worthy. Take a snapshot of the entire league. Look at what the Bruins have. And what they have on the way. Look at what the Blackhawks have. And what they have on the way. Look at the Kings. Blues. Look at some of the up-and-coming teams. There are a LOT of rosters that have caught up to and surpassed ours.

But let's go on believing that we're a coaching change away from catching lightning in a bottle (again). Like there aren't 29 other franchises with Cup aspirations, too.

We're nowhere near a Cup. Hopefully, Mario sees this and acts accordingly (assuming it's his call to change GMs).

The Pens are no longer must-see TV, folks. We're just another recent Cup winner trying to hold onto old glory in foolish manner, thinking excuses got in the way of a potential dynasty.

It's not excuses. It's bad management, bad development and bad coaching. And that is NO excuse when you can start your roster building with 87 and 71. Absolutely no excuse.

Sorry Shero, but you're done in my book. Next man up.
I hope everyone reads this, cuts and pastes it, and keeps it on file to read over and over again. This is the one post that literally sums everything up, regardless of which side of the fence your'e on.

Do I like Bylsma more than most? Probably, but there are so many deficiencies here personnel wise that a coaching change won't make any difference in the long run.

Fleury will still be erratic. That first goal was inexcusable.

Our wingers will still not be able to make the "3 to 4 foot passes" we're clamoring for. They simply aren't capable of it.

A bunch of left handed shots on a PP isn't going to get it done, especially when the only righty seems to purposely fire at shin pads. Think of how different this PP would be if one of Sid or Geno were righties.

If our coach is overrated, then our GM should be stuck with the same label. Everyone else has caught up while Shero's been standing still, looking at Sid and Geno like X-Box sprites and believing that having "10" next to their name in terms of ability should always be enough.

And a big ****** and YOU to the Pittsburgh media for not really calling anyone out EVER. Every story is a puff piece, and our coach, GM, and especially our goalie are seemingly bulletproof.

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01-29-2013, 10:54 PM
  #178
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Originally Posted by SidTheKid8787 View Post
I know you're mad right now but Sid doesn't get paid to hit and fight. I'll agree that he's looked lazy out there but so has the players who's job it is to "set the tone" or "lay the big hit".
I guess I'm the biggest Sid homer, because I don't think he's being lazy. His line has no puck possession unless he's possessing it the entire time. He skates 3 feet into the offensive zone and then has to turn around and play defense. Maybe I'm blind to how he's really playing, though.

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01-29-2013, 10:54 PM
  #179
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Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale View Post
Did he actually say that or are you referencing prior comments?
No he didn't say that, but he looked like he was reaching for answers he didn't have. He stumbled through that whole media Q&A.

I think he really doesn't have the full prospective of how badly they played with having too take in so much, there's no way he remembered all of it.

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01-29-2013, 10:55 PM
  #180
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What's the point of bringing Hynes up if Bylsma's fired? I thought, they play the exact same system down in Wilkes-Bare.

Or do you think he will come up with completely different thinking?

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Old
01-29-2013, 10:55 PM
  #181
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Originally Posted by ColePens View Post
They just aren't responding to him. It's that simple. He could be preaching the perfect strategy. It's how you communicate, and right now nobody is listening.



Not exactly. They do not have to.



And if it goes the other way? If we went to someone else everyone would be *****ing about signing Semin for 1 year and letting Parise go.



I'll give you a month, but it's pretty clear what is happening here.



I'm judging DJ based on everything I've ever seen of him.



If nothing is working, and I definitely blame the players, how can you not see coaching issues? They are not responding. It's literally THAT simple.

I said this in 08 and we won a Cup in 09 after a coaching change. Same thing happens here if they can get a guy in to make great in-game adjustments and get the team to listen/go out and play with desperation.
Cole, IMO, a month is too late. You're 45% of the schedule done at that point. With things condensed the rest of the way, a new coach won't have the luxury of 3, 4, or 5 day breaks for practice. IMO, IF you're going to do it, then do it soon, because there will be some in game growing pains because of the condensed schedule and the magnitude of the task (much easier to loosen things up for a team that has structure and discipline than re-introduce structure and discipline for a team that has none).

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01-29-2013, 10:55 PM
  #182
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I'm still hoping the team just needs time to get its legs, so many key players didn't play during the lockout. But still, so much of it is issues we've seen since Bylsmas first full season and the issues never seem to get addressed, either system wise or personnel wise. It may be nearing the time for both Shero and Bylsma to be shown the door but I'm trying to be patient and give the team some time to find its legs. But another disappointing season? Time to clean house in the front office and behind the bench.

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Old
01-29-2013, 10:56 PM
  #183
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Originally Posted by IcedCapp View Post
I guess I'm the biggest Sid homer, because I don't think he's being lazy. His line has no puck possession unless he's possessing it the entire time. He skates 3 feet into the offensive zone and then has to turn around and play defense. Maybe I'm blind to how he's really playing, though.
He's not playing like he wants to win. It's pretty obvious.

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Old
01-29-2013, 10:56 PM
  #184
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The thing is, you make the coaching move first, then the trades. You don't want the new players walking into a toxic atmosphere.
I don't have a theory one way or the other on that. My assumption would be, coach fired and player's traded on the same day or players the next day. Close together so there's no mistaking the message.


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Originally Posted by MrBurgundy View Post
But the 3C model won the Cup one time in the past...
So true.

Seriously, if we're being honest, it worked as much because Detroit's goalie sucked as because our 3C model was tough to match up against (which it was). That's the tricky part for those guys I'm sure... everyone logically stays with what they think they know works, but if something worked because of an unusual set of circumstances... sticking with it wouldn't help your cause over time.

Hopefully we're done with that thinking after tonight.

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01-29-2013, 10:57 PM
  #185
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Originally Posted by wheelz87 View Post
+Despres. Only player who bothered to show up tonight.

-Effort. ******* embarassing.

-Fleury. I know it wouldn't have mattered. But it's really getting old. I love the guy. I root for the guy so much. He can win a cup, he has proven that. But I have zero confidence in him and he looks like **** on goals that should be easy saves.

-Bylsma. Again, love the guy. Love for what he has done for this team. But it's not working anymore.

-Shero. Get off your *** and do something about this embarssment. We have THREE SKILLED forwards and NINE mother ******* grinders. ALL OF OUR GOALS come from the god damn same THREE players. We have all these wonderful defensive prospects, a 1st rounder. Do SOMETHING so Sid and Geno, you know YOUR BEST PLAYERS, have somebody to ******* pass to.

-Kunitz. Speaking of which, you SUCK. You're slow, you have no hands, no offensive creativity. When your contract is up, SEE YA. Overhyped third liner/2nd wheel getting to play with the best player in the world.
I couldn't agree more. I slow clap applaud you sir.

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01-29-2013, 10:57 PM
  #186
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Originally Posted by ColePens View Post


If nothing is working, and I definitely blame the players, how can you not see coaching issues?
Pardon me? I have been calling out Bylsma since the Montreal series. Am I reading you wrong? I can hardly blame him more than I am.

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01-29-2013, 10:57 PM
  #187
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Originally Posted by MtlPenFan View Post
I hope everyone reads this, cuts and pastes it, and keeps it on file to read over and over again. This is the one post that literally sums everything up, regardless of which side of the fence your'e on.

Do I like Bylsma more than most? Probably, but there are so many deficiencies here personnel wise that a coaching change won't make any difference in the long run.

Fleury will still be erratic. That first goal was inexcusable.

Our wingers will still not be able to make the "3 to 4 foot passes" we're clamoring for. They simply aren't capable of it.

A bunch of left handed shots on a PP isn't going to get it done, especially when the only righty seems to purposely fire at shin pads. Think of how different this PP would be if one of Sid or Geno were righties.

If our coach is overrated, then our GM should be stuck with the same label. Everyone else has caught up while Shero's been standing still, looking at Sid and Geno like X-Box sprites and believing that having "10" next to their name in terms of ability should always be enough.

And a big ****** and YOU to the Pittsburgh media for not really calling anyone out EVER. Every story is a puff piece, and our coach, GM, and especially our goalie are seemingly bulletproof.
Hey, just so you know, simply because I've been hard on Bylsma does not mean that Shero gets a pass in my book. Far from it. I've been saying for a little while that Ray Shero the risk taker who built a cup winner has been risk averse ever since. I got **** on for saying that, but he needs to look in the mirror as much as anyone.

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01-29-2013, 10:57 PM
  #188
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Originally Posted by PensFanSince1989 View Post
I'm still hoping the team just needs time to get its legs, so many key players didn't play during the lockout. But still, so much of it is issues we've seen since Bylsmas first full season and the issues never seem to get addressed, either system wise or personnel wise. It may be nearing the time for both Shero and Bylsma to be shown the door but I'm trying to be patient and give the team some time to find its legs. But another disappointing season? Time to clean house in the front office and behind the bench.
The Toronto game looked like it could have been rust. The Winnipeg game looked like a tactical dismemberment. Tonight? Tonight the team quit.

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01-29-2013, 10:58 PM
  #189
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Why? Once upon a time, he stopped playing for Therrien too. Doesn't matter how good a guy you are . . . coaches come with expiration dates. Even the best ones do. And, Bylsma has reached his expiration date.
I did not intend it to sound like I champion Bylsma over Crosby so much as I meant that I am scared of starting over, which I think we are bound to do. It`ll probably be for the better, but is is scary.

Just, do not question me about it, my soccer team has had the same coach for 14 years, I am easily scared.

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01-29-2013, 10:58 PM
  #190
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What about scott stevens or dallas eakins?

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01-29-2013, 10:58 PM
  #191
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That's a fine point, and I'm okay with going RRP's way of being patient, but this was a joke. I hate that people are *****ing about personnel, lines, etc. It had nothing to do with the loss tonight. Absolutely nothing.

The team played like **** because there was zero passion and nobody is buying into the system. They are turning the puck over because that's what the system does w/ 90 foot passes all day long. It's a joke. There really seems to be no structure. I'm SURE DB is doing a good job coaching, but it's how it's being communicated obviously.

The players deserve to be embarrassed for showing the fans that game. It was all the players fault, but that's why you need a guy who can motivate.

Ironically - the Steelers are reacting the same way to Tomlin. This new way of coaching where we make excuses and do not hold anyone accountable only works for 1-2 years.

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01-29-2013, 10:58 PM
  #192
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I wonder if Shero will have a quick trigger finger this year with trades or the coach. Reason being, he sounded absolutely infuriated last year after the Flyers series. I've never heard Ray sound more upset.

I wouldn't be surprised to see him quicker on the trigger this year.

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01-29-2013, 10:59 PM
  #193
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tender Rip View Post
Pardon me? I have been calling out Bylsma since the Montreal series. Am I reading you wrong? I can hardly blame him more than I am.
Nope.. I read your post again and I misunderstood it at first. I think we are sharing the same opinion here. My anger has got the best of me tonight. My apologies, TR.

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01-29-2013, 10:59 PM
  #194
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I don't have a theory one way or the other on that. My assumption would be, coach fired and player's traded on the same day or players the next day. Close together so there's no mistaking the message.




So true.

Seriously, if we're being honest, it worked as much because Detroit's goalie sucked as because our 3C model was tough to match up against (which it was). That's the tricky part for those guys I'm sure... everyone logically stays with what they think they know works, but if something worked because of an unusual set of circumstances... sticking with it wouldn't help your cause over time.

Hopefully we're done with that thinking after tonight.
You know, if Brooks Orpik is the first one moved, then I won't cry about it, not for a moment.

Even listening now, as people say 'players like and respect Bylsma, not like MT', the guy they're talking about most is Orpik. Well, **** Orpik. He's ******* hijacked Sid's and Geno's destiny, and I hope he hijacks a one way bus ticket out of town.

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01-29-2013, 11:00 PM
  #195
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And for people who want some miraculous trade.... no ****ing trade in the world would have made us win that game tonight. That was a ******** pathetic embarrassing effort. You could have traded for Jesus to be Sid's winger and it wouldn't have mattered.

Pathetic effort.

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01-29-2013, 11:00 PM
  #196
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Dupuis sounded embarrassed on everyone's behalf for that effort.

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01-29-2013, 11:00 PM
  #197
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Originally Posted by ColePens View Post



Not exactly. They do not have to.

They don't have to, but it wouldn't surprise me if they did. Making a change without really changing anything seems about par for the course at this point.

I'm definitely on board with firing Bylsma, but where do they go from there? I feel like it's going to take an organization wide change of philosophy to straighten things out.

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01-29-2013, 11:00 PM
  #198
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
You know, if Brooks Orpik is the first one moved, then I won't cry about it, not for a moment.

Even listening now, as people say 'players like and respect Bylsma, not like MT', the guy they're talking about most is Orpik. Well, **** Orpik. He's ******* hijacked Sid's and Geno's destiny, and I hope he hijacks a one way bus ticket out of town.
Disagree - we need Orpik. And he's actually had a very good year so far. (still early though....)

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01-29-2013, 11:00 PM
  #199
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And for people who want some miraculous trade.... no ****ing trade in the world would have made us win that game tonight. That was a ******** pathetic embarrassing effort. You could have traded for Jesus to be Sid's winger and it wouldn't have mattered.

Pathetic effort.
Are you saying Jesus Christ can't hit a curve ball?

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01-29-2013, 11:00 PM
  #200
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What about scott stevens or dallas eakins?
Sign me up.

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