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Old
07-12-2013, 04:19 AM
  #1
TeamTeal8
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How much longer until...

...this is Pavelski and Couture's Team? I love Joe and Patty, but I am an advocate for trading them. There is no question the trade for Thornton made the Sharks a legitimate team, but the last time I checked, we still have no Championship banners raised inside of SAP Center (Still not use to that).

I am really glad to hear that DW is talking with Pavs on an extension. Hopefully it is the same years as Couture. If the Sharks have another slow year in 13-14 and are somewhat out of a playoff spot. I hope they look into trading Jumbo, Patty and Boyle at the trade deadline.

Your thoughts?

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07-12-2013, 05:00 AM
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Hertl Power
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With the lack of quality players that hit free agency and the sharks complete inability to sign any of them Marleau and Thornton are better than any option we can get here in the foreseeable future.

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07-12-2013, 05:14 AM
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vilpertti
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One problem I see with Pavelski is that he might want guaranteed top6 role and now he's playing third line. I'm not sure if the team is ready for Couture-Pavs-Thornton hierarchy yet.

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07-12-2013, 05:26 AM
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Originally Posted by vilpertti View Post
One problem I see with Pavelski is that he might want guaranteed top6 role and now he's playing third line. I'm not sure if the team is ready for Couture-Pavs-Thornton hierarchy yet.
Probably not unless one of either Pavelski or Couture plays wing.

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07-12-2013, 08:49 AM
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LeeIFBB
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To the OP, I feel the same way about a certain executive's time here and the lack of banners in the rafters.

I also kind of get the feeling Pavelski won't be on the team for the 2014-2015 season.

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07-12-2013, 12:34 PM
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To the OP, I feel the same way about a certain executive's time here and the lack of banners in the rafters.

I also kind of get the feeling Pavelski won't be on the team for the 2014-2015 season.
If they can't extend him by the trade deadline he might be the one to go, not JT or Marleau. As for Marleau I wouldn't be surprised if he takes big hometown discount considering him and his families roots in the Bay Area and the Sharks org., and the fact that he has already made a grip of money.

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07-12-2013, 12:39 PM
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Pinkfloyd
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Originally Posted by TeamTeal8 View Post
...this is Pavelski and Couture's Team? I love Joe and Patty, but I am an advocate for trading them. There is no question the trade for Thornton made the Sharks a legitimate team, but the last time I checked, we still have no Championship banners raised inside of SAP Center (Still not use to that).

I am really glad to hear that DW is talking with Pavs on an extension. Hopefully it is the same years as Couture. If the Sharks have another slow year in 13-14 and are somewhat out of a playoff spot. I hope they look into trading Jumbo, Patty and Boyle at the trade deadline.

Your thoughts?
The only way Jumbo and Patty leave this team is if DW doesn't offer them a contract. Neither will be traded and neither are unwilling to take a discount to stay. Boyle might be different but could be the same. We don't have anything to go off of since he was under contract the entire time until now. The only difference that matters that is undeniable is that he doesn't have the full clause that Marleau and Jumbo have so he's easier to trade if they want to go that way.

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07-12-2013, 01:04 PM
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ramstoria
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Originally Posted by TeamTeal8 View Post
I hope they look into trading Jumbo, Patty and Boyle at the trade deadline.

Your thoughts?
Couture is the future captain, no doubt about that. But the only one of the "big 3" that has a chance of being moved in the next year is Boyle. Thorton and Marleau will retire Sharks. They are both only 33, they have a good 3-5 years of solid production left in them and they will most likely be signed accordingly.

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07-12-2013, 01:19 PM
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LeeIFBB
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Couture is the future captain, no doubt about that. But the only one of the "big 3" that has a chance of being moved in the next year is Boyle. Thorton and Marleau will retire Sharks. They are both only 33, they have a good 3-5 years of solid production left in them and they will most likely be signed accordingly.
Boyle gets traded
Defense???
Pavelski/Marleau/Thornton profit

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07-12-2013, 02:07 PM
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SJeasy
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Originally Posted by vilpertti View Post
One problem I see with Pavelski is that he might want guaranteed top6 role and now he's playing third line. I'm not sure if the team is ready for Couture-Pavs-Thornton hierarchy yet.
Two statements. During this last season, JT at one point described his role as 3rd line center. In terms of matchups at the end of the season, Pavs and JT alternated for second tier. 3rd line is not that far away for JT.

Secondly, Babcock already called it Couture and Pavs team and effectively said that the torch had been passed. Considering TM and Babcock's relationship, I wouldn't consider that an uninformed, off-the-cuff remark.

The only way I don't see the torch being passed to Pavs is if he wants a big payday like Drury got. DW already set the bar with Couture and DW does adhere to a salary hierarchy when writing his own contracts. The org has effectively said that Couture is the number one guy for them right now. That bar also applies to JT, Marleau and Boyle; their next contracts will be less than Couture's.

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07-12-2013, 02:18 PM
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do0glas
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Two statements. During this last season, JT at one point described his role as 3rd line center. In terms of matchups at the end of the season, Pavs and JT alternated for second tier. 3rd line is not that far away for JT.

Secondly, Babcock already called it Couture and Pavs team and effectively said that the torch had been passed. Considering TM and Babcock's relationship, I wouldn't consider that an uninformed, off-the-cuff remark.

The only way I don't see the torch being passed to Pavs is if he wants a big payday like Drury got. DW already set the bar with Couture and DW does adhere to a salary hierarchy when writing his own contracts. The org has effectively said that Couture is the number one guy for them right now. That bar also applies to JT, Marleau and Boyle; their next contracts will be less than Couture's.
i think bergerons contract helps us a bit.

dont see him getting 6.5 full term with us anyway. just wonder if there were gentlemans agreements to give the sharks full consideration in their UFA year...i know it doesnt mean anything really, but it can help.

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07-12-2013, 02:22 PM
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Yeah. Bergeron's contract helps a lot. Pavs is a Bergeron type but not nearly as good (not a knock on Pavs, just emphasizing how good Bergeron is). $5.5M would be a good contract for Pavs, although I wouldn't mind $6M.

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07-12-2013, 03:01 PM
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LeeIFBB
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Shouldn't Pavelski be looking at a contract very similar to the one David Krejci is currently on?

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07-12-2013, 03:02 PM
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Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
Yeah. Bergeron's contract helps a lot. Pavs is a Bergeron type but not nearly as good (not a knock on Pavs, just emphasizing how good Bergeron is). $5.5M would be a good contract for Pavs, although I wouldn't mind $6M.
That skating.

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07-12-2013, 03:08 PM
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Kitten Mittons
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Why do people want this to happen so quickly? We have a Hall of Famer and a franchise player replaced by two elite second liners. Okay.

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07-12-2013, 03:22 PM
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SJeasy
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Why do people want this to happen so quickly? We have a Hall of Famer and a franchise player replaced by two elite second liners. Okay.
It isn't that we want it; it is that it has already happened. It would be better to hope that the last two years were aberrations and that the big guy returns to form, but that really is a slim hope.

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07-12-2013, 03:29 PM
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Pinkfloyd
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Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
Yeah. Bergeron's contract helps a lot. Pavs is a Bergeron type but not nearly as good (not a knock on Pavs, just emphasizing how good Bergeron is). $5.5M would be a good contract for Pavs, although I wouldn't mind $6M.
I don't think it will help that much unless they match the term which is unlikely. Pavs will likely get 5 years 30 mil here, imo.

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07-12-2013, 03:32 PM
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OrrNumber4
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Why do people want this to happen so quickly? We have a Hall of Famer and a franchise player replaced by two elite second liners. Okay.
DOB > talent.

Heck, in 2009 fans were screaming for the Sharks to move on from 30-year-olds in Marleau and Thornton.

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07-12-2013, 03:40 PM
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Pinkfloyd
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DOB > talent.

Heck, in 2009 fans were screaming for the Sharks to move on from 30-year-olds in Marleau and Thornton.
A lot fewer then than there are now. But talent is not something that goes in perpetuity. It erodes over time because your physical and mental state can't keep up to the same level. And right now, Boyle, Marleau, and Thornton have shown some of those signs. It doesn't mean that they still can't be good players that contribute but their contracts will need to reflect that. Neither of those three should be making more than Couture going forward.

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07-12-2013, 03:44 PM
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A lot fewer then than there are now. But talent is not something that goes in perpetuity. It erodes over time because your physical and mental state can't keep up to the same level. And right now, Boyle, Marleau, and Thornton have shown some of those signs. It doesn't mean that they still can't be good players that contribute but their contracts will need to reflect that. Neither of those three should be making more than Couture going forward.
the only 1's that potentially could be a problem is marleau and boyle. more so boyle, but i still think marleau will be tricky to get him to drop below couture.

i could see thornton coming in at 5.9 at the most, marleau, 5.8 at the most, and boyle at about 5 million.

i still think thornton set up his last contract to be where he wants to sign the next contract (with the sharks) and that is 5 million.

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07-12-2013, 03:51 PM
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hohosaregood
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Marleau will probably last a long time. I never really thought he played a game that was reliant on his speed but his game was emphasized by his speed. So even if he loses a step, I think he'll still be very useful.

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07-12-2013, 04:05 PM
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the only 1's that potentially could be a problem is marleau and boyle. more so boyle, but i still think marleau will be tricky to get him to drop below couture.

i could see thornton coming in at 5.9 at the most, marleau, 5.8 at the most, and boyle at about 5 million.

i still think thornton set up his last contract to be where he wants to sign the next contract (with the sharks) and that is 5 million.
Why? Marleau and his family have deep root in SJ now. I could easily see him take a decent pay cut.

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07-12-2013, 04:11 PM
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Kitten Mittons
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He doesn't have to drop below Couture. He can also sign a $6M contract.

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07-12-2013, 04:15 PM
  #24
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Originally Posted by SJeasy View Post
It isn't that we want it; it is that it has already happened. It would be better to hope that the last two years were aberrations and that the big guy returns to form, but that really is a slim hope.
Do you or anyone saying this have any statistical proof of that? We had a huge discussion in the other thread about this and no one posted any evidence of cooch overcoming Thornton or marleau. In fact any evidence presented actually made cooch, specifically in the playoffs, look far worse. I would love to know where people are actually getting this idea from, other than subjective feelings and age based decline arguments.

I know cooch and pavs still haven't even matched the production that Thornton or marleau in their "down" years have. Marleau is still on the same defensive level that either of them are and Thornton despite his turnovers still drives possession well enough while creating turnovers with his long reach to not be a liability by any stretch.

I would love a non opinion based argument for how either player could possibly hope to replace the big two now or within a couple years even. I just don't see the proof in the pudding yet. Please enlighten me so I can crawl back under my rock.

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07-12-2013, 04:25 PM
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SJeasy
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Do you or anyone saying this have any statistical proof of that? We had a huge discussion in the other thread about this and no one posted any evidence of cooch overcoming Thornton or marleau. In fact any evidence presented actually made cooch, specifically in the playoffs, look far worse. I would love to know where people are actually getting this idea from, other than subjective feelings and age based decline arguments.

I know cooch and pavs still haven't even matched the production that Thornton or marleau in their "down" years have. Marleau is still on the same defensive level that either of them are and Thornton despite his turnovers still drives possession well enough while creating turnovers with his long reach to not be a liability by any stretch.

I would love a non opinion based argument for how either player could possibly hope to replace the big two now or within a couple years even. I just don't see the proof in the pudding yet. Please enlighten me so I can crawl back under my rock.
Quality of competition and decline in goal #'s and SH% for JT. A decline in SH% can signal a decline. 5on5 scoring (a critical factor for playoffs).

Barrie,
I agree about your Marleau comment with regards salary drop. Very tricky. I would not be surprised to see DW wait out the year on Marleau to see this year's performance which might make a drop more palatable. I am really anxious to see who gets extensions this off-season. My initial take was that he goes Couture then Pavs with the other 3 up in the air and Boyle likely set aside til season's end. I have had that take since sometime in early March.

I also don't think it will be a tie on $. The same way he did Marleau/JT. If it is close to a tie, it will be something like a $100k less on the cap hit for the second guy.

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