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Old
01-30-2013, 07:55 AM
  #26
icKx
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Most of what makes Pavel so special can't be quantified but I'm struck by the underwhelming numbers.

For context: does a player who leaves the Wings with only 30 more career goals than Tomas Holmstrom really fit with those immortals in the rafters...

I doubt Z makes it either if he's a 20g 40a player from here out.

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01-30-2013, 08:05 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Henkka View Post
#91 left us with his own decision and never came back. He just doesn't belong there, no matter what the stats are. You don't leave the family, if you want to be a family legend.

I'm still a greatest fan of Fedorov, loved him all these years, was angry when he left, but that has been forgiven years ago. It was always nice to see him doing good and playing his Fedex-hockey at Capitals or Russian National team. I'd never boo for him or anything and I don't have any kind of agenda against him. But he just doesn't belong there.

PS.

You just don't say no for Mr. Ilitch, if he puts 50 million on the table and take 40 millions from elsewhere. That's was the clearest FU signal against our organization on that time.
Did somebody recently catch The Godfather again?

"Fedorov, you're my favorite Russian, and I love you. But don't ever take sides with anyone against the family again. Ever."- Mr I giving Feds the business after he changes his mind and finally (and correctly) decides to hang the #91 in the rafters.

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01-30-2013, 08:14 AM
  #28
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I've been a fan for 50 years and Dats is the most entertaining player I've ever seen. He does magical things out there. Gordie was great, Gretzsky was great and so many others but for pure entertainment I take Dats

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01-30-2013, 08:21 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by icKx View Post
Most of what makes Pavel so special can't be quantified but I'm struck by the underwhelming numbers.

For context: does a player who leaves the Wings with only 30 more career goals than Tomas Holmstrom really fit with those immortals in the rafters...
I guess I'm about where you are on this one- his numbers aren't mind-blowing. But anyone who watches Pavel and honestly critiques his game (regardless of what team they root for) will admit that he's one of the best players in the league and has been for years.

Despite the fact that he's a quiet guy off the ice, his game is tailor made for the Youtube era with all of his ridiculous takeaways, thread the needle assists, and goals scored that make you wonder why he's not putting up 50 each season.

He puts up good numbers, but they don't tell the story of how he can absolutely dominate games. I think I'm leaning towards putting the #13 in the rafters. If it came down to Pavel or Hank, the 13 should be going up.

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01-30-2013, 08:48 AM
  #30
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Yes. He deserves it.

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01-30-2013, 08:55 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by alConn View Post
Not unless he signs another contract. If he signs another that makes him a Red Wing for life (give or take), then yes. If he bails after this contract is up for Russia (probably), then no.
So if Datysuk plays another 5 seasons and scores on average 40-50 points, then he will be more worthy to get his number retired? Or you just want to penalize a player for going home after he has achieved everything he could with Detroit?

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01-30-2013, 09:06 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Claypool View Post
The next number to go up is #91.

I wouldn't put Shanahan up there simply because he was in the back half of his career when he joined the Red Wings.
Yeah, I'm iffy on Shanny. But I'd lean toward yes.

Wings fans think we're cheapening the process by allowing Datsyuk or Shanny up there.

But really... what if this team goes 40 more years without the cup. In a 30-team league, it's certainly not impossible to imagine.

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01-30-2013, 09:11 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Henkka View Post
PS.

You just don't say no for Mr. Ilitch, if he puts 50 million on the table and take 40 millions from elsewhere. That's was the clearest FU signal against our organization on that time.
I wonder how long it will be before people smarten up and understand that Fedorov never said "NO" to $50M.

He said, "I can't negotiate right now"
He was going through a divorce. I know guys who didn't want to buy a freakin' car while divorce proceedings were going on.

A couple months later, when Fedorov was ready to negotiate, Holland reduced the offer to 4 years, $32M.

This notion that he took less to play in Anaheim is ********.

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01-30-2013, 09:16 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by JPE123 View Post
I've been a fan for 50 years and Dats is the most entertaining player I've ever seen. He does magical things out there. Gordie was great, Gretzsky was great and so many others but for pure entertainment I take Dats
This.
And if this doesn't matter to a fan, I don't know what does.

When #13 gets the puck, everyone with a pulse sits up.

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01-30-2013, 10:53 AM
  #35
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270 goals
580 assists
820 points
I'm anal so I need to point out that the proposed total would be 850 pts.

For me, as much as I loved Feds and Shanahan I really believe that a player should have spent the bulk of his career, if not his entire career, with the organization to get his number up in the rafters.

I also, think it's tough to compare the stats of Datsyuk/Zetterberg to those who came before them...including Lidstrom (considering he bridges the old NHL and the new NHL). To me, the question of raising one's number has just as much to do with off ice conduct as it does on ice conduct. I'd say that Datsyuk and Zetterberg are the prototypical Red Wings and will have ample on ice performances to justify their numbers one day hanging.

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01-30-2013, 11:46 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Henkka View Post
#91 left us with his own decision and never came back. He just doesn't belong there, no matter what the stats are. You don't leave the family, if you want to be a family legend.
I believe he still has a home in Michigan and he still does tons of charity work in the area.

Shanahan left for the Rangers and people aren't mad at him for doing that.

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01-30-2013, 11:54 AM
  #37
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If Holland really wants to sign Datsyuk after his contract expires... It's simple - we sign the Malkin

As for Datsyuk deserving his name up there... I have to say yes. His effect on this team is beyond points, imo, a real leader.

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01-30-2013, 11:57 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by icKx View Post
For context: does a player who leaves the Wings with only 30 more career goals than Tomas Holmstrom really fit with those immortals in the rafters...
That doesn't seem fair. Datsyuk has been on the team for way less than Homer thus far. And unlike many other players, he just went through another half lockout, reducing his opportunity. He came over late, he's getting older, and these lockouts only reduce his chances.

I think more important is his PPG and how long he stays with the Wings. If he's with the Wings for life, signs another 2-3 year contract, blah blah, maintains his production. I think he should get put up.

He's *the* engine of this team when I watch the games. When he's on, the whole team is on. Flipper's goals last night, a squirt player could have put those in. Wide open, perfect passes, just tap it home. Good for Flip being in the right place at the right time with his stick on the ice, but I think it's clear that Datsyuk is doing the work on those plays. His playoff performance against SJ a couple years ago really sealed my mancrush too. It's like he decided he was just going to put the team on his back. Almost worked out too.

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01-30-2013, 12:01 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Claypool View Post
I believe he still has a home in Michigan and he still does tons of charity work in the area.

Shanahan left for the Rangers and people aren't mad at him for doing that.
People were ready for Shanny to leave. He was on his last leg and if Yzerman was gone then it was time to fully hand the team over up front to Pav and Z.

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01-30-2013, 12:10 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by silkyjohnson50 View Post
People were ready for Shanny to leave.
Oh, so it's all about the fans' selfishness for when a player is "allowed" to leave their team. Got it.

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01-30-2013, 12:27 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Claypool View Post
Oh, so it's all about the fans' selfishness for when a player is "allowed" to leave their team. Got it.
You just said "Shanny left for the rangers and people aren't mad at him for that."

Fedorov leaving and Shanny leaving aren't comparable. It was time for Shanny to leave. Fedorov was still the best forward on the team.

News flash: that's going to make a difference. The terms of leaving aren't equal.

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01-30-2013, 12:33 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by silkyjohnson50 View Post
Fedorov leaving and Shanny leaving aren't comparable.
They are completely comparable.

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Originally Posted by silkyjohnson50 View Post
Fedorov was still the best forward on the team.
That's debatable. His last great year was his last year in Detroit. Given the contract he signed in Anaheim and his production that followed I don't think anyone is upset he left when he did.

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01-30-2013, 01:19 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Cyborg Yzerman View Post
I'm slightly more liberal about this than most folk. I'd put Kelly, Feds, Shanny, Ozzie, Pavel, and Hank all in the rafters. Then I'd make a Red Wings hall of fame for guys like Draper, Maltby, and McCarty, etc.(like the Flyers organization) These were all guys vital to our franchise's continual success and Stanley Cups. But this is just me.
Thats a terrible idea. Detroit has the highest standard of putting numbers in the rafters and it really adds to the tradition of the team.

Datsyuk has some selkes but thats about it for hardware. If Red Kelly isnt in the rafters Datsyuk shouldnt be either. Look at the guys in the rafters and tell me which one Datsyuk is comparable too?

The production line were all part of the best dynasty Detroit has seen, Sawchuk is a top 5 goalie all time, Yzerman has a tonne of accolades and is arguably the greatest captain ever etc.

Datsyuk was always a top center when he was in the league, one of the best defensive forwards of his time but never was "the man". If he had a conn smythe I would consider it more

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01-30-2013, 01:32 PM
  #44
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Shanahan will never go up. As great as he was and as much as I loved him he still played half his career with NJ, NYR and Hartford. Plus his number has already been given out to guys like Meech and Nyquist, so that tells you he's not in the plans.

No one has wore #91 since Feds, so down the line I think it's possible he gets up there eventually. I think he should be.


On the topic at hand: Based on the Wings standards, Datsyuk hasn't done enough, yet. If he wins another cup and/or re-signs after his deals up and pads his stats more, he has a good chance. I'd say Z's chances are just as good too.


I also think their should be type of Wings HoF or Ring of Honor that honors the likes of Draper, Maltby, Shanahan, Homer, etc without retiring their number.

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01-30-2013, 02:02 PM
  #45
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I also think that both Z and Datsyuk should be up there. If not them, then who else?

Zetterberg... arguably the best playoff performer of his time. One of the best two-way players of his time. Captain.

Datsyuk... Top 3 player in the league for several seasons. I believe only Gordie Howe has led this team in scoring more times than Pavel Datsyuk. That's really impressive.
Steve Yzerman led the Wings in scoring more seasons than Datsyuk has PLAYED. Did you forget about Yzerman?

If Datsyuk leaves after 2014, he can only possibly have led the team in scoring a maximum 8 times (assuming he does it this year and next year) to Yzerman's 11. And Datsyuk hasn't led the team in scoring since 2009-10. Should we expect him to lead the team in scoring, or Zetterberg, who has led the team the past three years? They're only a point apart currently.

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Originally Posted by 8snake View Post
I'm looking at Zetterberg's numbers and even if you're extremely optimistic about the numbers he could put up I don't see how he gets his number raised. He won't be a ppg player
Never mind finishing top-ten in scoring in 2010-11 with a PPG rate and 80 points, scoring better than PPG over the last 60+ games last year, or currently having 7 over 6 games.

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wont be a prolific goal scorer, only have one individual award and overall his numbers won't be very impressive. I think Datsyuk has a ways to go to get his number up, and given that Hank is a looooooong way to go IMO to warrant serious consideration....unless this cbecomes a "lifetime achievement" honor, which it shouldn't be.
Zetterberg already has two awards. Conn Smythe and 2nd-team All-Star selection. Also, as far as PPG, he's only just behind Datsyuk. He's AHEAD of Datsyuk in goals. Datsyuk is below PPG also. How can someone suggest Datsyuk will be retired but Zetterberg would not, when Zetterberg has been the one who carried the team when it was most important? Datsyuk wasn't even top-three in importance in the Cup run.

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Originally Posted by Henkka View Post
#91 left us with his own decision and never came back. He just doesn't belong there, no matter what the stats are. You don't leave the family, if you want to be a family legend.
Fedorov is arguably the fourth-greatest Red Wing ever. Without Fedorov, the Wings win none of the Cups since 97 except possibly 2008 - depending on Fedorov's influence on Datsyuk and whether either of the Eurotwins or Franzen/Filppula/Hudler/etc. is traded, etc.

Quote:
You just don't say no for Mr. Ilitch, if he puts 50 million on the table and take 40 millions from elsewhere. That's was the clearest FU signal against our organization on that time.
This:

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Originally Posted by The Fading Captain View Post
I wonder how long it will be before people smarten up and understand that Fedorov never said "NO" to $50M.

He said, "I can't negotiate right now"
He was going through a divorce. I know guys who didn't want to buy a freakin' car while divorce proceedings were going on.

A couple months later, when Fedorov was ready to negotiate, Holland reduced the offer to 4 years, $32M.

This notion that he took less to play in Anaheim is ********.
Although technically, the offer was cut to 4yr/$40 and Fedorov said "yes", and then when he came to sign it was 4yr, $32m. That last switch was the final straw - and given that fact it is impossible to fault Fedorov for his decision.

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Originally Posted by silkyjohnson50 View Post
People were ready for Shanny to leave. He was on his last leg and if Yzerman was gone then it was time to fully hand the team over up front to Pav and Z.
Shanahan had just scored 40 goals. He decided "Nah, I don't want to be a Wing anymore because other guys are the stars here now." Wings fans wouldn't have complained at all about keeping him around at least one more year.

At least Fedorov left because management was d****** him around. And it's not like he just said "I'm leaving." He left for the team run by Bryan Murray, the first GM and coach he played under.

At the time the following players IMHO deserve a banner hung:
#4 Leonard "Red" Kelly
#5 Nicklas Lidstrom
#6 Larry Aurie
#30 Chris Osgood
#91 Sergei Fedorov

Arguables:
#7 Norm Ullman
#8 Syd Howe

Current players who have a good chance to earn the honor by the end of their careers:
#13 Pavel Datsyuk
#40 Henrik Zetterberg

I fully realize how many numbers that ends up retiring. But remember these things: One is guaranteed to be retired - likely sometime this season (#5). One of them is already retired (#7). Three of them are "unofficially" retired (#6, #30, #91), another belongs to a defenseman who retired as arguably the greatest defenseman ever (#4). One belongs to a forward who retired as the league's all-time leading scorer (#8), and the last two are currently in use by the stated players.

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01-30-2013, 02:06 PM
  #46
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Datsyuk is an unbelievable player and probably the Wings most exciting forward ever. But I still think it's a no.

I just don't put him in the same breath as the guys who are up there right now.

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01-30-2013, 02:15 PM
  #47
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Datsyuk is an unbelievable player and probably the Wings most exciting forward ever. But I still think it's a no.

I just don't put him in the same breath as the guys who are up there right now.
Unfortunately agree right now, especially if he wants to head back to Russia after next season. I'd love to see it happen but I don't think he meets the requirements.

I think if he sticks around for another couple years as a veteran and nears the 1,000 point mark, he goes up. Another cup would be amazing but I don't think we get the opportunity. Simply sticking around and leading this team into a new era would be huge for his legacy.

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01-30-2013, 02:17 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by silkyjohnson50 View Post
People were ready for Shanny to leave. He was on his last leg and if Yzerman was gone then it was time to fully hand the team over up front to Pav and Z.
Strange, everyone I knew wanted Shanny to retire a Wing.

He wasn't made captain so he bounced and scored 30 goals with NYR the next year.

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01-30-2013, 04:12 PM
  #49
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I think he's something people will be talking about for years to come though. Seriously, I've seen pretty plays, good stickhandling. But his creativity is off the charts. I've seen him do things that I've never seen from anyone else.
That's the point for me. Nobody else in the world has played or plays just anything like him, he's unique. For that alone plus all the success (personal and the cups) he's had, that's a no brainer for me. Also Hank deserves to be up there. Fedorov as well IMO, Lidstrom obviously, but that's about it then, I'd be fine with these four.

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01-30-2013, 04:16 PM
  #50
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Thats a terrible idea. Detroit has the highest standard of putting numbers in the rafters and it really adds to the tradition of the team.

Datsyuk has some selkes but thats about it for hardware. If Red Kelly isnt in the rafters Datsyuk shouldnt be either. Look at the guys in the rafters and tell me which one Datsyuk is comparable too?

The production line were all part of the best dynasty Detroit has seen, Sawchuk is a top 5 goalie all time, Yzerman has a tonne of accolades and is arguably the greatest captain ever etc.

Datsyuk was always a top center when he was in the league, one of the best defensive forwards of his time but never was "the man". If he had a conn smythe I would consider it more
One of the worst analysis I've seen.

"Has some selkes, but that's about it."

He has 3 selkes as best defensive forward in the league (without taking penalties) while also leading the team in scoring 7 or 8 straight years.

People are clueless.

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