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Old
01-30-2013, 11:51 PM
  #76
Sadekuuro
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I'm torn on this one. I like that the Wings are so hesitant to put anyone up there and that you really have to be a long-serving Red Wing great to even have a shot.

But even acknowledging that standard, I lean towards honoring Pavel. Phenomenal talent, guts, creativity, tenacity, you name it. He's a special player.

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01-30-2013, 11:53 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by BinCookin View Post
I think Datsyuk is not the Captain simply because his language skills (although improved) are still below par. While Z has pretty fluent english.

I will bet Dats talking to refs during the game would not be helpful.
Zetterberg was captain of Timra over in Sweden also. They put his locker right next to Yzerman as soon as he showed up. He has always been groomed for this english or not.

Datsyuk isn't captain because that isn't the kind of person or player he is in my opinion. They had to beg him to even put on an A.

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01-31-2013, 12:04 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Unsportsmanlike View Post
I'm anal so I need to point out that the proposed total would be 850 pts.

For me, as much as I loved Feds and Shanahan I really believe that a player should have spent the bulk of his career, if not his entire career, with the organization to get his number up in the rafters.

I also, think it's tough to compare the stats of Datsyuk/Zetterberg to those who came before them...including Lidstrom (considering he bridges the old NHL and the new NHL). To me, the question of raising one's number has just as much to do with off ice conduct as it does on ice conduct. I'd say that Datsyuk and Zetterberg are the prototypical Red Wings and will have ample on ice performances to justify their numbers one day hanging.
Amen!!

I would send 13 to the rafters. Likely before 40, 14, and 91

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01-31-2013, 12:15 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Sadekuuro View Post
I'm torn on this one. I like that the Wings are so hesitant to put anyone up there and that you really have to be a long-serving Red Wing great to even have a shot.

But even acknowledging that standard, I lean towards honoring Pavel. Phenomenal talent, guts, creativity, tenacity, you name it. He's a special player.
I forgot this, and I'm ashamed for it.

Datsyuk is a fighter man. He gives and takes hits, he isn't afraid of anyone. He players a bigger game than Franzen. Remember last year when Chara knocked him from behind? Same shift, no helmet, he goes and tries to take Chara out. Completely fearless.

Remember the hit on Malkin when he came back from injury in the 2009 Finals? Knocked him right on his butt.

I love that about him. He's got a ton of skill. A good shot, amazing passer. But he'll be the first to stick up for his teammates and he's definitely not the kind of player to shy away from the physical side. Complete package.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_c5bNXaVfQ < watch and love.


Last edited by Flowah: 01-31-2013 at 12:21 AM.
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01-31-2013, 12:21 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by The Fading Captain View Post
But the silly Red Wings fans... assumed that Zetterberg was the great defensive forward... while Datsyuk was viewed by many really uninformed fans as "one-dimensional"
Bob, Bob, Bob. Are you serious?

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Originally Posted by Flowah View Post
While I think Pav is generally underappreciated in comparison to Z for his defense
Which is why Z, who has generally taken on the shutdown assignments and more difficult defensive duties in general and performed as well or better defensively as Datsyuk has won all of those Selkes. Oops. Wait.

Zetterberg is legitimately the most underrated player in the league.

Don't get me wrong when I say this, I think Datsyuk is an excellent player at both ends. But he should not have a single Selke award. The ones he did win should have gone to Henrik Zetterberg. Z was the guy doing the defensive heavy lifting in Detroit, not Datsyuk. It's much like Kesler in Vancouver. Malhotra was the shutdown guy, and was great at it. But Kesler somehow got the votes to become a finalist ahead of Malhotra. Then the next year, in March, Malhotra suffers an eye injury. Kesler has to start playing in an actual defensive role instead of being Mr. Offense like he had been all year. He takes home the Selke. The following season he has a significant point drop, due largely to having to play as the checking center. For another example of this exact phenomenon, see Matt Stajan in Calgary after his first 55 games there.

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01-31-2013, 12:25 AM
  #81
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Yeah I've heard all that before. I know what I see. I see people saying Z is better than D defensively, and after watching 99% of the games in the past 5 years, I cannot come to that conclusion. Which is why I said he's underrated in comparison. By Wings fans I suppose, not the general hockey watching public.

Datsyuk has the hand eye, hockey sense, and general just skills that I think make him at least as good as Z defensively. So often he knocks pucks out of the air, steals it from the other team, intercepts a pass, breaks up a play. All stuff to keep their team from getting their offense going.

When I see Z's offensive game, it lacks most of that, at least at Pav's level. But he does hound his guy very tightly like a shadow. I can't say that's better than Pavel. If I had to choose, I'd go with Dats on that.

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01-31-2013, 01:58 AM
  #82
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imo the expectations to get your jersey hung are way too high. Would rather see some 91's, 13's, 40's up there rather than have maybe just 7 numbers for the next 50 years.

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01-31-2013, 02:08 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Flowah View Post
Yeah I've heard all that before. I know what I see. I see people saying Z is better than D defensively, and after watching 99% of the games in the past 5 years, I cannot come to that conclusion. Which is why I said he's underrated in comparison. By Wings fans I suppose, not the general hockey watching public.

Datsyuk has the hand eye, hockey sense, and general just skills that I think make him at least as good as Z defensively. So often he knocks pucks out of the air, steals it from the other team, intercepts a pass, breaks up a play. All stuff to keep their team from getting their offense going.

When I see Z's offensive game, it lacks most of that, at least at Pav's level. But he does hound his guy very tightly like a shadow. I can't say that's better than Pavel. If I had to choose, I'd go with Dats on that.
Some people (see the post you quote) always use the "match up" argument as to why Z's better defensively. First of all, that's hardly even been true the past couple of seasons now. Datsyuk was given many assignments at home against top lines when he was healthy the past two seasons. On the road, coaches don't have as much say. In fact, several opposing coaches hid from this matchup when they have home ice advantage. AV never lets the Sedin's on the ice against Datsyuk in Vancouver, Renney wanted nothing to do with his kids playing against Datsyuk last year in Edmonton, and on and on. Part of that is because of Datsyuk's offense (as they often attempt to put their top shutdown unit against him when they can), but it's also because they understand that when Datsyuk's on the ice you're simply going to have the puck less. And when you do have the puck, he's the most disruptive forward on the planet.

In addition, Babcock isn't the end all be all. Just because he gets to make the final call doesn't automatically equate to him being right. Look how much he loves getting Dan Cleary on the ice (and it would be more if not for his minor penalty per game that he takes.)

Btw, which player babysat Holmstrom for so many years at even strength? Homer was the worst defensive forward on the team (to the point that he'd get replaced at the end of games in which Detroit had the lead), yet playing alongside Datsyuk allowed him to play so many minutes against top competition and play them successfully.

Datsyuk has been better defensively since after the Cup in 08. To no surprise, Z's defensive value peaked in 07-08, when he was playing so many games with Datsyuk. Since then Z's unit has spent more and more time in the defensive zone.

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01-31-2013, 06:29 AM
  #84
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Numbers and awards are important when considering number retirement, but they aren't everything. Pavel has accomplished a lot in his own right. More importantly, the magic he displays on the ice is very rare, and I don't know that we've ever seen anything like it before on the Red Wings. Regardless of whether he goes back to Russia or not after this contract, he is still a Red Wing for life.

I can't say with certainty that his number will be raised, but I think he deserves it.

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01-31-2013, 06:45 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Flowah View Post
I forgot this, and I'm ashamed for it.

Datsyuk is a fighter man. He gives and takes hits, he isn't afraid of anyone. He players a bigger game than Franzen. Remember last year when Chara knocked him from behind? Same shift, no helmet, he goes and tries to take Chara out. Completely fearless.

Remember the hit on Malkin when he came back from injury in the 2009 Finals? Knocked him right on his butt.

I love that about him. He's got a ton of skill. A good shot, amazing passer. But he'll be the first to stick up for his teammates and he's definitely not the kind of player to shy away from the physical side. Complete package.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_c5bNXaVfQ < watch and love.
I think this video sums up Pavel's physical game the best:


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01-31-2013, 06:51 AM
  #86
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Didn't we talk this before? Red Wings policy for retired numbers has been:

1. Red Wings Captaincy
2. Success with Red Wings (Stanley Cups & Individual Trophies)
3. Hall of Fame selection

Sawchuk is the only exception for this (not a Captain), but he was a goalie. Maybe Datsyuk could be an exception too, who knows. But he is missing that captaincy.

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01-31-2013, 07:27 AM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Flowah View Post
Yeah I've heard all that before. I know what I see. I see people saying Z is better than D defensively, and after watching 99% of the games in the past 5 years, I cannot come to that conclusion. Which is why I said he's underrated in comparison. By Wings fans I suppose, not the general hockey watching public.

Datsyuk has the hand eye, hockey sense, and general just skills that I think make him at least as good as Z defensively. So often he knocks pucks out of the air, steals it from the other team, intercepts a pass, breaks up a play. All stuff to keep their team from getting their offense going.

When I see Z's offensive game, it lacks most of that, at least at Pav's level. But he does hound his guy very tightly like a shadow. I can't say that's better than Pavel. If I had to choose, I'd go with Dats on that.
And Pavs uses his defense to create offense better than Z, if you get what I'm saying.

Pavs takeaways on the forecheck and in the neutral zone tend to lead to great scoring chances. Take two nights ago for example: Fil's first goal was a result of Pavs stealing the puck behind the net and finding Fil in front. And then Fil got a SH breakaway because Pavs intercepted the pass from the blue-line and passed it off the boards to Fil for the breakaway.

A lot of Pavs greatness defensively is because a ton of his production offensively is a result of his takeaways. He's basically an offensive threat even when the other team has the puck.

Sorry if that's tough to understand, in a but if a rush so can't explain myself too well.

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01-31-2013, 08:01 AM
  #88
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I think what sets Pav apart from a lot of other guys is when he's on the ice and the opposing team has the puck a lot of the time the the other guys are thinking defensively with Pav anywhere near them. He's so good at making responsible players look foolish they some times dish the puck quicker then they need to.

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01-31-2013, 09:54 AM
  #89
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Agree with Flowah and The Nose (nobody argues with the Nose!)

IMO Datsyuk's the better defensive player, which isn't a slight to Zetterberg (it's not like we're saying that Brett Hull is a better defensive forward). Z is a world class player and has been a top defensive forward for years. He just happens to play on the same team with one of the very forwards better than him on the defensive side of the game.

Z's defensive shift against the Penguins in the SCF was one for the ages, and I think that contributes to the thought that he's a better def forward than Pavel (great moment on the biggest stage in hockey). But for their careers, I'll take Pavel. And his ability to transition from defense to offense is incredible- reminds me of hockey's version of Pitino's Kentucky teams in the '90's who used their suffocating full-court defense to trigger their offense off of turnovers.

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01-31-2013, 10:41 AM
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Henkka View Post
Didn't we talk this before? Red Wings policy for retired numbers has been:

1. Red Wings Captaincy
2. Success with Red Wings (Stanley Cups & Individual Trophies)
3. Hall of Fame selection

Sawchuk is the only exception for this (not a Captain), but he was a goalie. Maybe Datsyuk could be an exception too, who knows. But he is missing that captaincy.
The captaincy thing is dumb.
Guy Lafleur was never captain of the Canadiens. Should the Habs not have retired his number?
Are you saying that if Fedorov would have stayed in Detroit he still wouldn't have got the jersey retirement because he was never captain?

A guy leads your team in scoring 8 straight years or whatever, finishes 6th in all-time franchise scoring, during one of the best runs in franchise history -- while being named best defensive forward 3 times.

Oh, and he produces highlight reel plays on a nightly basis...

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01-31-2013, 11:00 AM
  #91
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Originally Posted by The Zetterberg Era View Post
Zetterberg was captain of Timra over in Sweden also. They put his locker right next to Yzerman as soon as he showed up. He has always been groomed for this english or not.

Datsyuk isn't captain because that isn't the kind of person or player he is in my opinion. They had to beg him to even put on an A.
Nonsense.
That might have been true of Pavel in 2004 or whatever, but Datsyuk plays hockey like a leader plays hockey.

He goes up against Shea Weber and there's a chance Weber is watching his back

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01-31-2013, 11:09 AM
  #92
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Originally Posted by The Fading Captain View Post
The captaincy thing is dumb.
Guy Lafleur was never captain of the Canadiens. Should the Habs not have retired his number?
Are you saying that if Fedorov would have stayed in Detroit he still wouldn't have got the jersey retirement because he was never captain?

A guy leads your team in scoring 8 straight years or whatever, finishes 6th in all-time franchise scoring, during one of the best runs in franchise history -- while being named best defensive forward 3 times.

Oh, and he produces highlight reel plays on a nightly basis...
Fedorov only led the Wings three times, actually. And he is easily more deserving than Datsyuk is right now; Dats is 228 points behind Fedorov's Wings totals in 170 GP. He'd have to score at a 1.34 PPG pace over the next 2.5 seasons to reach Fedorov's numbers; an average of 110 per 82 games.

Also, Fedorov might have become captain if he had stayed; it's possible he'd have outlasted Lidstrom; he still hasn't officially announced his retirement and with Detroit's trainers he likely would have been in better condition to continue playing at a higher level.

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Originally Posted by silkyjohnson50 View Post
Some people (see the post you quote) always use the "match up" argument as to why Z's better defensively. First of all, that's hardly even been true the past couple of seasons now. Datsyuk was given many assignments at home against top lines when he was healthy the past two seasons.
Possibly because he was being outperformed offensively by Zetterberg. Both in terms of raw totals and per-minute numbers.

Quote:
Datsyuk has been better defensively since after the Cup in 08. To no surprise, Z's defensive value peaked in 07-08, when he was playing so many games with Datsyuk. Since then Z's unit has spent more and more time in the defensive zone.
Zetterberg's defensive value "peaked" as you say because he had a career season offensively as the sniper on Datsyuk's line. In the 2008 playoffs, he was moved to center full-time, and has stayed there. The following season, Datsyuk played most of the year with Hossa (who scored 40g/71p in 74GP IIRC) and Holmstrom (37 points in 53 GP), while Zetterberg had far weaker linemates (typically Franzen 34g/59p in 71GP and Cleary 14g/40p in 74GP). Zetterberg was typically used as a shut-down center while Datsyuk was kept away from the opposing team's shut-down center. Result? Zetterberg's offense suffers considerably compared to Datsyuk. Going into that season there were many experts who rank Zetterberg not only as better than Datsyuk, but as the best player PERIOD. In 2009-10, Datsyuk and Zetterberg tied for the team lead in scoring, despite Zetterberg playing fewer games and playing more of a shut-down role. Yet Datsyuk once again won the Selke. This was the most baffling of the three. The 2008 award, Detroit writers (among others) before the award ceremony wrote of how Z "was going to add the Selke to his Smythe", so that came as a bit of a surprise . It was understandable in 2009, when Zetterberg had a massive offensive drop, that he wouldn't win the "defensive" award. But when Datsyuk had the same drop and scored equal to Z, who was clearly the better and more relied upon defensive player; this boggled the mind. And the last one, 2011. Zetterberg had an amazing season, finishing in the top ten with a PPG performance. Datsyuk missed a third of the season injured and wasn't as significantly relied upon for his defense as before compared to Z, Helm, Cleary, etc. due in part to that. Yet Datsyuk was still in the top three.

That year has pushed me towards feeling that the Selke is beginning to lose its meaning; if a player - even one who is great defensively when at 100% - misses half the season and doesn't play a major defensive role on his team when he is in the lineup, yet finishes top-three in the voting... what exactly does the award mean?

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01-31-2013, 12:01 PM
  #93
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Throw 13 up there. Most exciting player to wear the jersey. He's something special that we won't see again for a long, long time.

And if you're all obsessed with stats and hardware, his Selke's are enough credentials for me. That's quite an accomplishment.

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01-31-2013, 12:49 PM
  #94
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Player/Year (+/-) faceoff hits blocked takeaways SHTOI
11-12 D 21 56.2 76 31 42 1:13
11-12 Z 14 49.1 45 26 77 1:04
10-11 D 11 54.6 54 20 71 0:39
10-11Z -1 52.4 38 19 54 0:37
9-10 D 17 55.1 89 33 132 0:44
9-10 Z 12 49.5 45 34 53 1:03
8-9 D 34 56 76 33 89 1:36
8-9 Z 13 53.3 56 32 42 1:49
7-8 D 41 54.4 40 42 144 1:49
7-8 Z 30 55 31 16 53 2:09
6-7 D 36 56.2 21 33 107 1:54
6-7 Z 26 52.5 19 25 49 2:51

Stats hardly tell the whole story. But when you factor all these together... and consider the difference in skating ability... and the number of Selke trophies... I really don't see where there's room to say Zetterberg is the better defensive forward.

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01-31-2013, 01:18 PM
  #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flowah View Post
I forgot this, and I'm ashamed for it.

Datsyuk is a fighter man. He gives and takes hits, he isn't afraid of anyone. He players a bigger game than Franzen. Remember last year when Chara knocked him from behind? Same shift, no helmet, he goes and tries to take Chara out. Completely fearless.

Remember the hit on Malkin when he came back from injury in the 2009 Finals? Knocked him right on his butt.

I love that about him. He's got a ton of skill. A good shot, amazing passer. But he'll be the first to stick up for his teammates and he's definitely not the kind of player to shy away from the physical side. Complete package.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_c5bNXaVfQ < watch and love.
Thanks for the links.
Datsyuk is our power forward.
Datsyuk is a very special player. He is probably the most exciting player to watch the last 10 years and while not one of the best ever, he is most certainly one of the most exciting ever.
Does he deserve to get his # retired? If he plays out his career with the Wings, hell yes.

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01-31-2013, 01:24 PM
  #96
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I don't get the "play out his career as a Wing" argument... Did all players whose numbers were retired play their entire careers as Red Wings? If he signs in the NHL with another team - I could understand the argument then.. but if he leaves the NHL and plays 2-3 years in Russia - whats the big deal? How does that lessen any excitement he ever brought as a Red Wing?
What I could see as an argument against hanging his number in the rafters is career length. As for the guys who look at stats - do you really believe the retired numbers are there because of the stats? I don't think so, personally. Sure, the stats had a lot to do with it, but I don't think you can use stats as the only reason to retire a number or not retire one... And I definitely believe Datsyuk's number deserves to be up there. (But hey, I am biased as hell, so...)


Last edited by VeGor: 01-31-2013 at 01:32 PM.
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01-31-2013, 02:03 PM
  #97
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Please, let's cut the elitist crap. I'm not suggesting the Red Wings soften their standards to Colorado's or Vancouver's. However, the late 90's and early 00's Red Wings team is only comparable to the 50's Red Wings team in scale. There's no reason that the primary catalysts of our 3/4 Stanley Cups shouldn't be in the rafters, mainly Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Shanahan, and Fedorov. Hell, Red Kelly should be there too. Osgood is a stretch, but still not beyond realm of possibility.
Elitist crap is exactly what getting your jersey retired is. Its the absolute elite of the elite.

The catalysts of 3/4 cups will be up there, Yzerman and Lidstrom. Fedorov would be too if he didnt piss off the organization when he left. The whole point of retiring jerseys is to be the absolute best and be an all time great.

Shanahan didnt even have his best years with Detroit but he should be in the rafters? Its one of the oldest franchises in the league, the most successful American franchise and arguably second most successful in the entire league all time but we should be putting first line players who were very good in the rafters, even when they had better seasons with other teams?

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01-31-2013, 02:30 PM
  #98
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This is not like other teams who retires numbers left to right....

You need to have accomplished tons of things before going up in the rafters. Need 1 more cup and 1000pts+ and then go from there.
1 more Cup, probably doesn't need that, he's already got 2 rings to his credit.

He also may get a break on the "1000 pt preference" considering he lost a full season and a half due to lockouts. Considering his pt/game career average an extra 120 games would go a long way.

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01-31-2013, 03:09 PM
  #99
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I don't get the "play out his career as a Wing" argument... Did all players whose numbers were retired play their entire careers as Red Wings? If he signs in the NHL with another team - I could understand the argument then.. but if he leaves the NHL and plays 2-3 years in Russia - whats the big deal? How does that lessen any excitement he ever brought as a Red Wing?
What I could see as an argument against hanging his number in the rafters is career length. As for the guys who look at stats - do you really believe the retired numbers are there because of the stats? I don't think so, personally. Sure, the stats had a lot to do with it, but I don't think you can use stats as the only reason to retire a number or not retire one... And I definitely believe Datsyuk's number deserves to be up there. (But hey, I am biased as hell, so...)
Playing out your career for the Wings is completely legit when you're talking about the Wings retiring a number. There have been a number of players that have been with the Wings for a few years, and they played amazingly. But I'd never consider them "Wings" because they weren't here long enough.

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01-31-2013, 03:35 PM
  #100
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Elitist crap is exactly what getting your jersey retired is. Its the absolute elite of the elite.

The catalysts of 3/4 cups will be up there, Yzerman and Lidstrom. Fedorov would be too if he didnt piss off the organization when he left. The whole point of retiring jerseys is to be the absolute best and be an all time great.

Shanahan didnt even have his best years with Detroit but he should be in the rafters? Its one of the oldest franchises in the league, the most successful American franchise and arguably second most successful in the entire league all time but we should be putting first line players who were very good in the rafters, even when they had better seasons with other teams?
Datsyuk has been the best player - the leading point scorer - the best defensive forward - the most exciting player - for 12 years -- during a period of great success for this franchise.

Guy plays with unparalleled skill and with the heart of a Tiger.

Even if he left after next season... he's surely leaving as the 6th in points ALL TIME -- while at the same time, being one of the best defensive forward in the NHL for most of those years.


People talk about the rarity of having your number retired.

But from 67 to 92, this was a really poor hockey club, for the most part.
I can't speak for why guys like Syd Howe or Larry Aurie never got recognized for their work in the 20s and 30s.
The 40s and 50s are well represented in the rafters.

Frankly, the era of the late 60s, 70s and 80s doesn't deserve mention (outside of yzerman)

But the era of 2000 to 2012-13 -- has been a very successful era for the Wings. And Datsyuk as been critical.

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