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Old
02-03-2013, 03:02 AM
  #226
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Question...knowing what you know now and thinking the way most of you think. If this was Stastny circa 2008 would you all be clamoring for the Avs to just give in and pay the man?

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02-03-2013, 03:18 AM
  #227
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Originally Posted by Colorado Sports Fan View Post
Question...knowing what you know now and thinking the way most of you think. If this was Stastny circa 2008 would you all be clamoring for the Avs to just give in and pay the man?
I wouldn't give Stastny $6.6M/yr at that time and I definitely wouldn't do it now.

I've said from the very beginning, if O'Reilly is demanding $5M/yr and won't budge, then the Avs should just let him sit. He doesn't deserve that kind of money and I really doubt any team in the NHL would give him that much.

My problem with Avs management is that, according to the reports/rumours, they are stuck on that 2 year, $7M contract and won't budge. It's basically "take it or leave it" and now they haven't spoken in over a week. Absolutely no talks or negotiations. They don't give a **** if one of their best players is sitting on his ass while the team is playing .500 hockey and losing a key forward to injury in every other game. All of this after half a season of hockey was canceled due to a lockout. It's a joke.

He doesn't deserve $5M/yr but I don't think he's out of line if he's asking for more than $3.5/yr. There has to be some kind of middle ground here. Right now the team is losing, O'Reilly is losing, and the fans are losing out because of this.

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02-03-2013, 09:40 AM
  #228
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I would prefer this team with O'Reilly playing on it.

But right now, the play of John Mitchell (1.1M), Matt Duchene ($3.5M), and PA Parenteau ($4M) are making O'Reilly's position look even more unreasonable if the Avs offer remains the offers that were reported.

I am enjoying watching the effort this team is making right now, and I'm not going to worry that ROR isn't here. I believe the Avs are doing the right thing FOR THE TEAM. Not having ROR is hurting for sure. But the bigger issue is all the players currently missing due to injury. ROR is only a partial bandaid to that issue, and overpaying simply due to those injuries, as several people have urged, would be a mistake. And since O'Reilly is injured himself, it doesn't really matter at the moment.


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02-03-2013, 10:11 AM
  #229
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Originally Posted by TwoPadStack View Post
How important a coach perceives a player to be, versus what the organization's management perceives that player's worth to be, is often quite different.

Since we're all experts on the market... what is the going rate for players who had the most ice time amongst forwards on their team, just like you said?
Well, PK Subban led his whole team in TOI, let alone his position, and was also coming off his ELC like O'Reilly.

If we're only considering last year and not considering production, both narrow views that I don't agree with but I'll roll with it, the going rate would appear to be 2.875m on a 2y bridge. Which the Avs have already outbid.


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02-03-2013, 10:14 AM
  #230
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i swear to god if colorado pays this guy close to five million bucks a year i'm all but done with this franchise.
This.

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02-03-2013, 10:17 AM
  #231
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John Shannon said that he thinks it's more likely O'Reilly plays in the KHL before he plays in NHL again.

I'm not a particularly vindictive person, but at some point in this process I would probably want O'Reilly to lie in the bed he makes. If he keeps choosing every other option than to sign a perfectly fair, and even generous, bridge deal with Avs, he can do that for as long as he likes.

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02-03-2013, 10:26 AM
  #232
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Sorry guys, but in all honesty I don't understand why anyone cares how much the Avs pay or don't pay for this guy. Is thing coming out of our pocket via special salary deduction? This organization is WAY below the salary cap and will seemingly not spend anywhere up to it so it does not matter why Ryan gets in the in end.

Right now we are short changed as a fan based ... AGAIN!

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02-03-2013, 10:32 AM
  #233
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Originally Posted by rpontbriand View Post
Sorry guys, but in all honesty I don't understand why anyone cares how much the Avs pay or don't pay for this guy. Is thing coming out of our pocket via special salary deduction? This organization is WAY below the salary cap and will seemingly not spend anywhere up to it so it does not matter why Ryan gets in the in end.

Right now we are short changed as a fan based ... AGAIN!
With a cap, yes we should care. If the Avs start overpaying young players, they will experience a loss of leverage in subsequent negotiations with young players, something they have a lot of. With that loss of leverage, they will experience a cascade of overpriced contracts that eat up all the cap room.

In the end, the on ice product will suffer long term because this one guy decided the market and comparables don't apply to him. The Avs have to hold firm here or it will directly affect the quality of the team long term. Don't get short sighted as a fan.

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02-03-2013, 10:32 AM
  #234
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Originally Posted by rpontbriand View Post
Sorry guys, but in all honesty I don't understand why anyone cares how much the Avs pay or don't pay for this guy. Is thing coming out of our pocket via special salary deduction? This organization is WAY below the salary cap and will seemingly not spend anywhere up to it so it does not matter why Ryan gets in the in end.

Right now we are short changed as a fan based ... AGAIN!
Simply put, when you overpay a player with comparable players with deals coming up, you are basically stirring up a hornets nest. If the Avs decide to overpay O'Reilly right now (say they give him his 5 Million), what happens when the Avs have to re-sign Landeskog, EJ, Duchene and Varlamov? Are you just going to give them whatever they ask for?

It is not a matter of what the situation is now. The difference between great teams and good teams is their ability to forecast the future and be able to prepare for it. If the Avalanche want to have long term success it will be based on them keeping their players on reasonable contracts and keeping a strong core together. If the Avalanche cave because the fans want instant gratification I will be extremely disappointed, and I will expect the peak of this team to be very short as they will have to unload a ton of contracts down the line once they start overpaying their talent.

This situation would be like a family doing some house shopping. They find a house that the kids like, but it is massively over priced, and it is in a new, unestablished part of town. They can afford the down payment on the house, but the mortgage, upkeep and unknown future development of the area could lead to much future upheaval. Do they just collapse to the children's constant whining, or do they stand strong and find a more reasonable deal?

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02-03-2013, 10:33 AM
  #235
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Originally Posted by rpontbriand View Post
Sorry guys, but in all honesty I don't understand why anyone cares how much the Avs pay or don't pay for this guy. Is thing coming out of our pocket via special salary deduction? This organization is WAY below the salary cap and will seemingly not spend anywhere up to it so it does not matter why Ryan gets in the in end.

Right now we are short changed as a fan based ... AGAIN!
Well, it will set a tone of how much players can expect to get overpayed in the future as well.
So yes it matters, and it matters a lot.

EDIT: Quick dudes above me with better answers.

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02-03-2013, 10:38 AM
  #236
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Originally Posted by Avs_19 View Post
I wouldn't give Stastny $6.6M/yr at that time and I definitely wouldn't do it now.

I've said from the very beginning, if O'Reilly is demanding $5M/yr and won't budge, then the Avs should just let him sit. He doesn't deserve that kind of money and I really doubt any team in the NHL would give him that much.

My problem with Avs management is that, according to the reports/rumours, they are stuck on that 2 year, $7M contract and won't budge. It's basically "take it or leave it" and now they haven't spoken in over a week. Absolutely no talks or negotiations. They don't give a **** if one of their best players is sitting on his ass while the team is playing .500 hockey and losing a key forward to injury in every other game. All of this after half a season of hockey was canceled due to a lockout. It's a joke.

He doesn't deserve $5M/yr but I don't think he's out of line if he's asking for more than $3.5/yr. There has to be some kind of middle ground here. Right now the team is losing, O'Reilly is losing, and the fans are losing out because of this.
You don't think the lack of talking is because he went and got himself injured in russia, played more games while injured, and injured himself further? Even if he were signed, he'd still be sitting on his dumb ass.

Further... you're mad that *THIS* team is only playing .500 hockey? I consider .500 hockey to be a pretty pleasant surprise from this collection of "talent".

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02-03-2013, 10:39 AM
  #237
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I would just like to say that if Ryan were Russian, he would get zero sympathy at all. The fact that he is demanding way too much money, and that he constantly threatens to play in the KHL is reminiscent of the strategy that many "low character" Russian players have used before. The only reason that Ryan is getting any sympathy (from fans and media alike) is because he is supposed to be the "good 'ol Canadian boy".

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02-03-2013, 10:41 AM
  #238
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Sorry, but out of all the dudes listed there, the only player I'd give more money to is Landeskog. I think Duchene's got a lot to prove as of yet, and there's no way I'd pay Varlamov more than $5M.

This organization's done a great job of rallying the fanbase to its side as penny pinchers, and the fans have somehow completely bought into it 100%. Part of the problem here is the organization just doesn't spend money - on and off the ice. And please don't bring up the Blackhawks example. Even with their supposed salary cap implosion, they're still a better product than what we put on the ice every night.

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02-03-2013, 10:41 AM
  #239
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Originally Posted by rpontbriand View Post
Sorry guys, but in all honesty I don't understand why anyone cares how much the Avs pay or don't pay for this guy. Is thing coming out of our pocket via special salary deduction? This organization is WAY below the salary cap and will seemingly not spend anywhere up to it so it does not matter why Ryan gets in the in end.

Right now we are short changed as a fan based ... AGAIN!
Sure, overpay for him... then overpay for a couple more players, and oh... look at that! We're at the cap ceiling... with the worst roster in the league! GOOD IDEA!

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02-03-2013, 10:48 AM
  #240
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Originally Posted by Bonzai12 View Post
Sorry, but out of all the dudes listed there, the only player I'd give more money to is Landeskog. I think Duchene's got a lot to prove as of yet, and there's no way I'd pay Varlamov more than $5M.

This organization's done a great job of rallying the fanbase to its side as penny pinchers, and the fans have somehow completely bought into it 100%. Part of the problem here is the organization just doesn't spend money - on and off the ice. And please don't bring up the Blackhawks example. Even with their supposed salary cap implosion, they're still a better product than what we put on the ice every night.
That is exactly the point. If you want your other players on reasonable deals then you need to make sure everyone is on a reasonable deal.

I still honestly expect O'Reilly to get dealt. Some team will get desperate to add a player like Ryan down the line and will overpay to add him IMO. He'll be traded @ near the deadline, or to upgrade the Avs' pick at the draft.

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02-03-2013, 10:50 AM
  #241
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The Avs for once are 100% right in this situation. They can not over-pay in this situation, it sets a bad precedent in the future that we'll cave and just over-pay.

Think about this we give O'Reilly 1.5M per year more than what he worth, then future contracts for people like Duchene would have to be something like 7.5M per instead of close to 6M per. Or Varly would have to be close 6M per instead of 4.5-5M per.

The Avs have to stay firm with what they are offering, they have been more than fair on a bridge deal around 3.5M per. If O'Reilly thinks he is worth more than that he is crazy and we shouldn't even bother because this will be ongoing situation every time the guy needs a new contract.

I love what the guy brings to the team but he had one good year where he was gift wrapped extended playing time with our best winger. He needs to take a bridge deal and prove he what he is worth.

And if this BS about management saying something to offend him is true, then O'Reilly needs to grow up that is the real world. My boss says things to me all the time that offend me or make my work sound worthless. Grow up kid.

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02-03-2013, 10:54 AM
  #242
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chet1926 View Post
The Avs for once are 100% right in this situation. They can not over-pay in this situation, it sets a bad precedent in the future that we'll cave and just over-pay.

Think about this we give O'Reilly 1.5M per year more than what he worth, then future contracts for people like Duchene would have to be something like 7.5M per instead of close to 6M per. Or Varly would have to be close 6M per instead of 4.5-5M per.

The Avs have to stay firm with what they are offering, they have been more than fair on a bridge deal around 3.5M per. If O'Reilly thinks he is worth more than that he is crazy and we shouldn't even bother because this will be ongoing situation every time the guy needs a new contract.

I love what the guy brings to the team but he had one good year where he was gift wrapped extended playing time with our best winger. He needs to take a bridge deal and prove he what he is worth.

And if this BS about management saying something to offend him is true, then O'Reilly needs to grow up that is the real world. My boss says things to me all the time that offend me or make my work sound worthless. Grow up kid.
If he got offended by something the Avs management said, can you imagine him after an arbitration meeting? He and his dad would be either crying or sulking afterwards.

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02-03-2013, 10:54 AM
  #243
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Originally Posted by rpontbriand View Post
Sorry guys, but in all honesty I don't understand why anyone cares how much the Avs pay or don't pay for this guy. Is thing coming out of our pocket via special salary deduction? This organization is WAY below the salary cap and will seemingly not spend anywhere up to it so it does not matter why Ryan gets in the in end.

Right now we are short changed as a fan based ... AGAIN!
The Avs have to be careful with their cap space for a very simple reason, the summer of 2014. For the 14-15 season the Avs have only Jones, PAP, McLeod, Johnson, Hejda, Wilson, and SOB signed. This excludes ATM fringe players like Sgarbossa, Heard, Pickard, etc. So a totaly of 7 players (out of 23 signed). Many of the free agents are going to demand a good amount of money.

RFA:
Duchene - If playing like he is now a 6-7m per long term deal is in his future
Varly - Really tough to say, but 5-6m if he lives up to potential
Landeskog - Tough to say again, but probably a bridge deal in the ~4m range
McGinn - 4m if he becomes a 20-25g scorer
Olver - $1m at most
Elliott/Barrie- too hard to tell for arguement 2m

UFA:
Stastny - 5.5-6m at minimum
Downie - 3-4m if we decide to keep him, which I doubt
Mitchell - if he continues like he is 2.5m
Zanon/Hunwick/Giggy - let go or retire for Giggy

That give this team a look of this:

McGinn (4m)-Duchene (7m)-PAP(4m)
Landeskog (4m)-Stastny (6m)-Downie(4m)
Sgarbossa (540k)-Mitchell (2.5m)-Jones (4m)
McLeod (1.15m)-Olver (1m)-Random scrub (1m)

EJ (3.75m)-UFA D (4m)
Wilson (2.25m)-Hejda (3.25m)
SOB or replacement (2m)-Barrie (2m)

Varly (6m)
Backup (900k) - Pickard or Aitto

Gives the team a cap hit of ~64.4 with out a 13th F or a 7th D. Those salaries could easily rise over that as well (a number could be lower too, like McGinn or Varly), especially if we decide to go after a top pairing defender. The cap will be at the lowest 64m, and would probably be ~68m. Leaving only 0-4m in cap room where ROR can fit in (provided Stastny stays), and if the Avs pay too much there isn't room to add anything to the team.

Edit: messed up lineup.

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02-03-2013, 11:01 AM
  #244
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Sorry, but out of all the dudes listed there, the only player I'd give more money to is Landeskog. I think Duchene's got a lot to prove as of yet, and there's no way I'd pay Varlamov more than $5M.

This organization's done a great job of rallying the fanbase to its side as penny pinchers, and the fans have somehow completely bought into it 100%. Part of the problem here is the organization just doesn't spend money - on and off the ice. And please don't bring up the Blackhawks example. Even with their supposed salary cap implosion, they're still a better product than what we put on the ice every night.
Duchene is worth more than ROR. He has had a 55 point season, a 67 point season, and a injury filled 28 point season. This year he looks better than his 67 point season. If he continues on the 70 point pace he will be a 6-7m player easily.

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02-03-2013, 11:12 AM
  #245
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If he got offended by something the Avs management said, can you imagine him after an arbitration meeting? He and his dad would be either crying or sulking afterwards.
He and his dad would have a little hissy fit when the mediators agreed with the Avs, because mediators aren't going to hold anything back.

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02-03-2013, 11:48 AM
  #246
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Sorry, but out of all the dudes listed there, the only player I'd give more money to is Landeskog. I think Duchene's got a lot to prove as of yet, and there's no way I'd pay Varlamov more than $5M.

This organization's done a great job of rallying the fanbase to its side as penny pinchers, and the fans have somehow completely bought into it 100%. Part of the problem here is the organization just doesn't spend money - on and off the ice. And please don't bring up the Blackhawks example. Even with their supposed salary cap implosion, they're still a better product than what we put on the ice every night.
This. Bang on! If Kronke read this thread he'd be grinning, there is no danger of Colorado overpaying O'Reilly. Some fans can't see the forest for the trees.

He's injured, and it's not a foot. That's the only thing holding up a trade imo.

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02-03-2013, 11:55 AM
  #247
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This. Bang on! If Kronke read this thread he'd be grinning, there is no danger of Colorado overpaying O'Reilly. Some fans can't see the forest for the trees.

He's injured, and it's not a foot. That's the only thing holding up a trade imo.
Oh, Great & Wise One, if it is not a foot injury, what is it?

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02-03-2013, 11:57 AM
  #248
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Oh, Great & Wise One, if it is not a foot injury, what is it?
Perhaps TPS will tell you. You'll believe him right?

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02-03-2013, 11:59 AM
  #249
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Perhaps TPS will tell you. You'll believe him right?
I would.

I'd probably believe you, too.

Is it simply injured pride?

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02-03-2013, 12:00 PM
  #250
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Perhaps TPS will tell you. You'll believe him right?
If you have something relevant to share, share it.

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