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The Luongo Thread: Cory Who?

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Old
02-02-2013, 10:24 PM
  #451
Sergei Shirokov
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Keep Schneider trade Luongo.

Wait until Schneider gets his chance, we are jumping the gun by making the decision to go back to Lu after 8 games.

Lu has had his opportunities it is Schneider's time to shine.

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02-02-2013, 10:35 PM
  #452
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Originally Posted by Sergei Shirokov View Post
Keep Schneider trade Luongo.

Wait until Schneider gets his chance, we are jumping the gun by making the decision to go back to Lu after 8 games.

Lu has had his opportunities it is Schneider's time to shine.
Or maybe we are jumping the gun by designating Cory the #1 after playing beastly in a few elimination playoff games? He knew what was at stake. I actually think they are both incredible,but a few years down the line, this team won't be that great. It is time to trade Schneider for a bigger return and go all-in to win a stanley cup.

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02-02-2013, 11:11 PM
  #453
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Or maybe we are jumping the gun by designating Cory the #1 after playing beastly in a few elimination playoff games? He knew what was at stake. I actually think they are both incredible,but a few years down the line, this team won't be that great. It is time to trade Schneider for a bigger return and go all-in to win a stanley cup.
Perhaps the goalie who plays beastly in elimination games and knows whats at stake is exactly the goalie who will help us the most?

Love Luongo and he looks fantastic, but I want to see what Schneider is capable of. I love both our goaltenders and get annoyed by the fans treating the other one like garbage. They are on the same damn team. Until something changes I don't see the problem with supporting both.

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02-02-2013, 11:13 PM
  #454
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Or maybe we are jumping the gun by designating Cory the #1 after playing beastly in a few elimination playoff games? He knew what was at stake. I actually think they are both incredible,but a few years down the line, this team won't be that great. It is time to trade Schneider for a bigger return and go all-in to win a stanley cup.
Yeah I didn't understand that either, to me aslong as both were here they were going to be a tandem once again.

And yeah he knew full well that Roberto would get starts and play well.

I still think we should move forward with Cory though. Luongo has had his chances and wants to now move on, it is Cory's time.

And I want Dimtry Orlov in a Luongo trade to Washington.

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02-03-2013, 12:19 AM
  #455
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One thing to remember is that nobody has ever officially proclaimed Schneider as #1. They've actually gone to lengths to AVOID saying it. Luongo has actually been treated fairly well, considering Schneider has almost always risen to the occasion when he's slipped up. They're both playing well right now so we might as well enjoy it, rather than trying to dump one.

Also, there's a reason that Schneider's value is higher around the league. He's shown that he's at least Luongo's equal in this league, and he's quite a bit younger. But Gillis has always said he believes in building a team for the long haul. So I don't see him trading whatever goalie gets the higher value (Schneider), and putting the future in question. That would be counting on Lack far too much. And as much as I'm pulling for him, considering I got to be one of the first to see him play when he was trying out, he might be no better than Alex Auld 2.0.

Trading away guys with the most value is what you do when you're rebuilding. Not what you do when you're trying to build a constant championship threat. Those players are the ones you build your team around.

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02-03-2013, 12:25 AM
  #456
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I say we keep them both and alter them in the playoffs to fool the opponent plans.....and see who is better and start from there........

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02-03-2013, 12:26 AM
  #457
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Originally Posted by Hal 9000 View Post
You make a good point! Schneider must know that his entire entity in Vancouver will be based on how he stacked up against Luongo. Unless he wins us the cup, its a no win situation for him. His best chance to define his own career would be moving to another team.
He only has a year and a half on this contract, hopefully he realizes his situation before Gillis trades Lu.
Man are you going to be disappoint.

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02-03-2013, 12:27 AM
  #458
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I say we keep them both and alter them in the playoffs to fool the opponent plans.....and see who is better and start from there........
I'm not opposed to rotation in the playoffs like you'd see in the regular season. But then again, I'm a loose cannon, like Bobrovsky.

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02-03-2013, 12:35 AM
  #459
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Also, there's a reason that Schneider's value is higher around the league. He's shown that he's at least Luongo's equal in this league, and he's quite a bit younger. But Gillis has always said he believes in building a team for the long haul. So I don't see him trading whatever goalie gets the higher value (Schneider), and putting the future in question. That would be counting on Lack far too much. And as much as I'm pulling for him, considering I got to be one of the first to see him play when he was trying out, he might be no better than Alex Auld 2.0.
I don't think Schneider has proven he's Luongo's equal quite yet - he needs at least a full season as a starter without Luongo there to bail him out to really prove that. He only really started to get the tough matches last year.

I actually think Schneider will never be as good as Luongo; he's still not quite there imo and I'm unsure if he'll take that next step, but I still prefer to keep Schneider at this point. He'll still provide top 10 goaltending and he'll be able to do it for the next 8-10 years, whereas I think Luongo only has another three or so elite years left and it's time for a changing of the guard in net.

I have also have a hard time believing Luongo's value is really as low as we've been led to believe. Lu could do a lot for a franchise like Washington right now... it's hard to believe that GM's would be as clueless as the Toronto media.

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02-03-2013, 12:41 AM
  #460
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Originally Posted by Sergei Shirokov View Post
Keep Schneider trade Luongo.

Wait until Schneider gets his chance, we are jumping the gun by making the decision to go back to Lu after 8 games.

Lu has had his opportunities it is Schneider's time to shine.
And what of the return? If Luongo only garners say Kadri + 2nd while Schneider gets Gardiner + 1st. Do we pull the trigger? Frankly, with how Kadri is playing one could argue he is off the table entirely. The point remains: do we accept less simply to keep Schneider?

Personally, I believe Luongo can provide us five to seven years of elite to quality goaltending. By this stretch we have ample time to see what Lack, Cannata and whatever goalie we either acquire or develop in that time frame have to offer. I want us to win now and if Schneider nets a better return than why not use it to our advantage and ride the Sedin era out with a bang?


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02-03-2013, 12:48 AM
  #461
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And what of the return? If Luongo only garners say Kadri + 2nd while Schneider gets Gardiner + 1st. Do we pull the trigger? Frankly, with how Kadri is playing one could argue he is off the table entirely. The point remains: do we accept less simply to keep Schneider?

Personally, I believe Luongo can provide us five to seven years of elite to quality goaltending. By this stretch we have ample time to see what Lack, Cannata and whatever goalie we either acquire or develop in that time frame. I want us to win now and if Schneider nets a better return than why not use it to our advantage and ride the Sedin era out with a bang?
Are you really confident in Luongo in the playoffs? I'm a big fan but it is hard to look past the fact he melts down every year aside from last year, and when you see the way Cory played last year, you have to think he is more capable of pulling a Quick/Thomas.

You also have to consider the value Schneider has to this team, and he could set us up for a much longer time, IMO he is already at Roberto's level and is a consistent top 5 goalie just waiting to happen.

Plus with the cap coming down that return we get for Schneider might handcuff us, and not make us any better, we could add a player like Gardiner, but then when he needs a raise that will push someone else who is useful and important out the door.

Personally I would rather set up our goaltending long term with Schneider and then get futures for Lu to set us up for a brighter future.

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02-03-2013, 12:49 AM
  #462
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If it takes Schneider to trade for a young, blue-chip center then I would do that trade.

Schneider for Ryan Johansen or Sean Cotourier.

Let Luongo ride out his contract while Lack/Cannata develop.

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02-03-2013, 12:53 AM
  #463
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I don't see how it's credible to think Schneider brings back a bigger return than Luongo. Especially now that he's perceived as having lost the starters job.

 
Old
02-03-2013, 12:58 AM
  #464
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This is a pretty ridiculous interpretation. Luongo clearly asked to move on if the team wasn't willing to stick with him as the starter, and benching him against LA was a clear indicator of the direction the team was going.

That's not mutually exclusive to Luongo wanting to win the job back and prove he's the best in the world. I think it's hard to imagine anyone not seeing that he'd want that given what a fierce competitor he is.

I like Schneider a lot, but I hope they wait until the deadline. I want to see Schneider playing more games and see if he still plays as well as he has in limited starts so far in his career.
I don't get it. He wants to move on because he lost his job but he's also a "fierce competitor"? Wouldn't a "fierce competitor" just go and win the job back?

"the team wasn't willing to stick with him as a starter" Wouldn't a "fierce competitor" be willing to compete for the net?

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Let's be honest now. You just don't like the guy.

Luongo has every reason to want to be in Vancouver, and as much as Cory Schneider does, if not more.

I don't expect him to stay by any means, but it's all too easy to forget that whole scenario last summer. The players apparently aren't thinking about it, so it's really just the media and those fans who can't seem to wrap their head around Luongo outplaying Schneider.
If he wanted to be here he could have. 12 year deal with a NTC does that for you. If he was worried about losing his job he should have come back and won it like anyone else.

I'm not surprised Lu is outplaying him. I wasn't surprised when Cory outplayed him in the playoffs either.

I like Lu. He wants to move on, I think we should let him.


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02-03-2013, 01:17 AM
  #465
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Originally Posted by Sergei Shirokov View Post
Are you really confident in Luongo in the playoffs? I'm a big fan but it is hard to look past the fact he melts down every year aside from last year, and when you see the way Cory played last year, you have to think he is more capable of pulling a Quick/Thomas.

You also have to consider the value Schneider has to this team, and he could set us up for a much longer time, IMO he is already at Roberto's level and is a consistent top 5 goalie just waiting to happen.

Plus with the cap coming down that return we get for Schneider might handcuff us, and not make us any better, we could add a player like Gardiner, but then when he needs a raise that will push someone else who is useful and important out the door.

Personally I would rather set up our goaltending long term with Schneider and then get futures for Lu to set us up for a brighter future.
Yes. While he is undeniably without his wrinkles. Luongo did not solely cost us any playoff series except the first matchup against Chicago. This team is prone to horrendous play and after only a three game sample size. I find it difficult to say Schneider could immediately right the wrongs if we collapse yet again. To put into perspective. Put the Schneider of today into the Boston series and I argue we still lose. Not necessarily because of Schneider (some may fault Luongo) but for myriad of injuries and inconsistency that plagued the team.

Schneider is incredibly talented but I am not convinced he has surpassed Luongo, and if the current trend continues. He is not liable to this season.

Perhaps, or we maintain them via a discount contract that has become a stable of the Gillis regime. Should they express interest elsewhere, then we make a trade and acquire more assets. Gardiner, for instance, is a much easier sell to teams who could offer us players that address our needs. Frankly, you could apply this to whatever trade Luongo returns, except it may be of lesser value. If trading Schneider allows us to acquire a game breaker, be it Kessel or whomever. I would rather consider that and take advantage of the Sedins while they are still in their prime.

In short, Schneider may provide us a greater opportunity to win now simply because the player(s) he returns may have a bigger impact. Hossa is a prime example, albeit he did not win with Pittsburgh. I guarantee they make that trade again without a second thought.

Furthermore, we have Lack, who has received quite a bit of praise in the AHL. Granted, he does not possess Schneider's resume but our alternatives after Luongo are not bleak by any means.

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I don't see how it's credible to think Schneider brings back a bigger return than Luongo. Especially now that he's perceived as having lost the starters job.
Simple. While his contract, age and playoff meltdowns are all vastly overblown on HF. They do hold merit in reducing Lu's value, if only by limiting the market. Washington, Edmonton, Chicago, Toronto and Philly are all likely to have considerably more interest in Schneider than Luongo.

Let's take the Leafs, for example. They seem to be adopting a "kid's rule" philosophy - allowing Kadri, Frattin, Gardiner and et cetera to develop. Why trade for Luongo when his prime is likely over by the time any of those players show the skill necessary to contend? Schneider, on the other hand, is young enough he will be just entering his prime when they do.

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02-03-2013, 01:49 AM
  #466
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Washington, Edmonton, Chicago, Toronto and Philly are all likely to have considerably more interest in Schneider than Luongo.
I don't question that there may be more teams "interested" in Schneider than Luongo. What I don't see is that interest turning into a larger return for Schneider than for Luongo.

 
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02-03-2013, 02:01 AM
  #467
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I don't question that there may be more teams "interested" in Schneider than Luongo. What I don't see is that interest turning into a larger return for Schneider than for Luongo.
Interest drives competition. If Toronto, Washington and Chicago all really want Schneider. They will need to outbid each other and thus may make steeper offers. I do not see any team making a similar push for Luongo.

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02-03-2013, 03:19 AM
  #468
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Yes. While he is undeniably without his wrinkles. Luongo did not solely cost us any playoff series except the first matchup against Chicago. This team is prone to horrendous play and after only a three game sample size. I find it difficult to say Schneider could immediately right the wrongs if we collapse yet again. To put into perspective. Put the Schneider of today into the Boston series and I argue we still lose. Not necessarily because of Schneider (some may fault Luongo) but for myriad of injuries and inconsistency that plagued the team.

Schneider is incredibly talented but I am not convinced he has surpassed Luongo, and if the current trend continues. He is not liable to this season.

Perhaps, or we maintain them via a discount contract that has become a stable of the Gillis regime. Should they express interest elsewhere, then we make a trade and acquire more assets. Gardiner, for instance, is a much easier sell to teams who could offer us players that address our needs. Frankly, you could apply this to whatever trade Luongo returns, except it may be of lesser value. If trading Schneider allows us to acquire a game breaker, be it Kessel or whomever. I would rather consider that and take advantage of the Sedins while they are still in their prime.

In short, Schneider may provide us a greater opportunity to win now simply because the player(s) he returns may have a bigger impact. Hossa is a prime example, albeit he did not win with Pittsburgh. I guarantee they make that trade again without a second thought.

Furthermore, we have Lack, who has received quite a bit of praise in the AHL. Granted, he does not possess Schneider's resume but our alternatives after Luongo are not bleak by any means.
I don't pin the series lose on him either, or our playoff failures.

Schneider is obviously the more attractive and valuable piece, for us and for other teams around the league. People that want to deal Schneider for a better return, want to do it in the context that Schneider could get us more helpful pieces for a cup run. But is that really true?

Schneider won't get us a star player, and that's what we need another high impact star player, we don't need depth guy, we don't need 2 third liners. It would most likely be a package of futures of highly quality than we could get for Luongo, but again it doesn't help us now, so why wouldn't we settle for less in return and keep Schneider rather than Luongo, and his contract and playoff inconsistencies.

And even if we get a star like Kessel, it is kind of a boom or bust - 1 shot thing. As with the cap coming down, adjustments will have to be made and adding another large cap hit to the team only takes away more from other areas, so we will have to blow up part of the team. And is that really what we want to do? We get a star like Kessel (not that I think we can myself) then suddenly our team is worse next year, and then after that there is the potential for Kessel to walk. Too high of a risk move to be spending one of our most valuable assets on IMO.

If we can get a star player without overpaying, then I would look at it and really consider it. But if it is a package of futures (Which is far more likely) I'm gunna hold onto both, then trade Lu for futures in the offseason.

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02-03-2013, 03:46 AM
  #469
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I don't see how it's credible to think Schneider brings back a bigger return than Luongo. Especially now that he's perceived as having lost the starters job.
He's got a 3 year deal without a NTC, which means his new team can sign the long-term extension of their liking. Age is another consideration. Tampa passed on Luongo because they wanted a younger option, but they might be interested in Schneider if they think Lindback isn't ready for the #1 spot.

I would think that his trade value is quite high, and MG may be bluffing when he says that moving him wasn't something he was currently considering. He may have just been unhappy with the offers he was getting him before he signed the deal. If it wasn't a consideration, why didn't they hand him a NTC?

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02-03-2013, 03:51 AM
  #470
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I don't pin the series lose on him either, or our playoff failures.

Schneider is obviously the more attractive and valuable piece, for us and for other teams around the league. People that want to deal Schneider for a better return, want to do it in the context that Schneider could get us more helpful pieces for a cup run. But is that really true?

Schneider won't get us a star player, and that's what we need another high impact star player, we don't need depth guy, we don't need 2 third liners. It would most likely be a package of futures of highly quality than we could get for Luongo, but again it doesn't help us now, so why wouldn't we settle for less in return and keep Schneider rather than Luongo, and his contract and playoff inconsistencies.

And even if we get a star like Kessel, it is kind of a boom or bust - 1 shot thing. As with the cap coming down, adjustments will have to be made and adding another large cap hit to the team only takes away more from other areas, so we will have to blow up part of the team. And is that really what we want to do? We get a star like Kessel (not that I think we can myself) then suddenly our team is worse next year, and then after that there is the potential for Kessel to walk. Too high of a risk move to be spending one of our most valuable assets on IMO.

If we can get a star player without overpaying, then I would look at it and really consider it. But if it is a package of futures (Which is far more likely) I'm gunna hold onto both, then trade Lu for futures in the offseason.
Do we really need back top 6 forwards? This team is going to be in a cap crunch next season. We also have Booth and Kesler coming back at some point, so post-injury:

Sedin Sedin Kassian
Booth Kesler Burrows
Raymond Schroeder/Lapierre Hansen
Higgins Malhotra/Lapierre Weise
Volpatti

I think we look set on the top 6, and our D is fine. We could use some prospects, but I disagree that we need immediate help. Any big contract stars coming back will crater our cap structure for next season. They just need to ride the injuries out.

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02-03-2013, 03:53 AM
  #471
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Do we really need back top 6 forwards? This team is going to be in a cap crunch next season. We also have Booth and Kesler coming back at some point, so post-injury:

Sedin Sedin Kassian
Booth Kesler Burrows
Raymond Schroeder/Lapierre Hansen
Higgins Malhotra/Lapierre Weise
Volpatti

I think we look set on the top 6, and our D is fine. We could use some prospects, but I disagree that we need immediate help. Any big contract stars coming back will crater our cap structure for next season. They just need to ride the injuries out.
Bingo!

Exactly my point, that takes away the entire basis for trading Schneider over Luongo.

So my proposition is, we keep both for the playoffs. Then, we trade Luongo is offseason for futures, as Schneider is the best option moving past this year.

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02-03-2013, 04:39 AM
  #472
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I'd move Schneider at the deadline if we could get a young bluechip forward who can crack the lineup now. I don't think we'd get that for Luongo. Honestly, I'm more concerned about getting a good return than I am about who stays. We can win with either guy provided that we have some real secondary scoring. This team is going nowhere if we need to rely on Kesler to carry the secondary scoring.

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02-03-2013, 04:41 AM
  #473
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I don't see how it's credible to think Schneider brings back a bigger return than Luongo. Especially now that he's perceived as having lost the starters job.
He's not.

People seem to think that GMs value players like fans do. They don't Schneider and Luongo are both worth lots, the only reason Luongo isn't worth more if because of his contract.

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02-03-2013, 04:46 AM
  #474
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Originally Posted by Sergei Shirokov View Post
I don't pin the series lose on him either, or our playoff failures.

Schneider is obviously the more attractive and valuable piece, for us and for other teams around the league. People that want to deal Schneider for a better return, want to do it in the context that Schneider could get us more helpful pieces for a cup run. But is that really true?

Schneider won't get us a star player, and that's what we need another high impact star player, we don't need depth guy, we don't need 2 third liners. It would most likely be a package of futures of highly quality than we could get for Luongo, but again it doesn't help us now, so why wouldn't we settle for less in return and keep Schneider rather than Luongo, and his contract and playoff inconsistencies.

And even if we get a star like Kessel, it is kind of a boom or bust - 1 shot thing. As with the cap coming down, adjustments will have to be made and adding another large cap hit to the team only takes away more from other areas, so we will have to blow up part of the team. And is that really what we want to do? We get a star like Kessel (not that I think we can myself) then suddenly our team is worse next year, and then after that there is the potential for Kessel to walk. Too high of a risk move to be spending one of our most valuable assets on IMO.

If we can get a star player without overpaying, then I would look at it and really consider it. But if it is a package of futures (Which is far more likely) I'm gunna hold onto both, then trade Lu for futures in the offseason.
Alright, in the case of Kessel.

FORWARDS
Daniel Sedin ($6.100m) / Henrik Sedin ($6.100m) / Zack Kassian ($0.870m)
Alexandre Burrows ($4.500m) / Ryan Kesler ($5.000m) / Phil Kessel ($5.400m)
Chris Higgins ($2.300m) / Jordan Schroeder ($1.250m) / Nicklas Jensen ($0.894m)
Aaron Volpatti ($0.750m) / Maxim Lapierre ($1.250m) / Jannik Hansen ($1.350m)
Dale Weise ($0.750m) /
DEFENSEMEN
Alexander Edler ($5.000m) / Jason Garrison ($4.600m)
Dan Hamhuis ($4.500m) / Kevin Bieksa ($4.600m)
Kevin Connauton ($0.900m) / Chris Tanev ($1.200m)
Andrew Alberts ($0.900m) /
GOALTENDERS
Roberto Luongo ($5.333m)
Ben Scrivens ($0.613m)
OTHER
Buyout: David Booth ($0.000m)
Buyout: Keith Ballard ($0.000m)
RETAINED SALARY TRANSACTIONS (0.062% of upper limit)
Cory Schneider ($0.040mó1.0%)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled with the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $64,200,000; BONUSES: $0
CAP SPACE (26-man roster): $100,000
-------------

Couple things.

- For some reason Capgeek insists you keep at least 1% when 'trading' a player. So ignore Schneider on the list.
- In the deals tossed around for Kessel. Toronto retains some of his cap (million or less)
- Some of those salaries may be high (Schroeder) or replaceable (Lapierre, Higgins)

Merely an example but if Kessel were available we could fit him under the cap and still ice a very competitive roster. This is the type of deal where I strongly advocate considering were it available. If the difference in return between Luongo and Schneider is negligible, fine. We move Lu and retain the younger asset. But if we can get someone like Kessel or Perry (three-way) than trading Schneider is worth it.

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02-03-2013, 04:53 AM
  #475
Hammer79
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The Canucks aren't buying out Booth. Luongo or Schneider won't do the Leafs much good if they are trading one of their top offensive players in Kessel. I think we can safely forget about Kessel being available.

Quote:
Bingo!

Exactly my point, that takes away the entire basis for trading Schneider over Luongo.

So my proposition is, we keep both for the playoffs. Then, we trade Luongo is offseason for futures, as Schneider is the best option moving past this year.
I'm saying that what the team needs is more blue chippers in the system, not more top 6 forwards. I think Schneider is more likely to bring back a blue-chipper than Luongo. Luongo will probably bring back an established player and a prospect. By the time Luongo is near the end of his career, Lack or Cannata might be ready to go. I'm all for keeping both until the off-season, but I think trading Schneider is the better strategic move.

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