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Time to re-up Nasty Nate?

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02-15-2013, 10:31 AM
  #151
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhamBamCam8 View Post
25 mil over 5 years... fair enough for me. You make room to keep Nathan Horton, you don't worry about your 3rd and 4th lines in this case IMO...

People say 4.5 max.... well, what about 5, and you replace Paille or Campbell with Spooner to save the difference? I do it.

Proof is in the pudding. This team is elite with him, mediocre without him...
Agreed - if Peverley is worth $3.25m, and Kelly is worth $3m, than Horton is worth $5m.

I'd much rather have a very strong top 6, even if it meant making the bottom 6 (or, especially, the bottom 3) a little bit weaker.

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02-15-2013, 10:33 AM
  #152
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You weaken the ability to roll 4 lines, and you lose IMO. Talent for talent, you're not going to be able to match up against teams like Pittsburgh and the Rangers. If you ship out Kelly/Peverley, your third line becomes completely suspect.

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02-15-2013, 10:43 AM
  #153
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Originally Posted by smithformeragent View Post
You weaken the ability to roll 4 lines, and you lose IMO. Talent for talent, you're not going to be able to match up against teams like Pittsburgh and the Rangers. If you ship out Kelly/Peverley, your third line becomes completely suspect.
This.
If you want to play the current B's game you don't renew Nate at 5, because we have to gut the 3rd line. If you want a top heavy team, you don't renew Nate at 5 because if you're going to be gutting elsewhere for a topline guy, you'll want to do it for someone more talented that he is. .

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02-15-2013, 10:58 AM
  #154
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smithformeragent View Post
You weaken the ability to roll 4 lines, and you lose IMO. Talent for talent, you're not going to be able to match up against teams like Pittsburgh and the Rangers. If you ship out Kelly/Peverley, your third line becomes completely suspect.
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Originally Posted by hoss75 View Post
This.
If you want to play the current B's game you don't renew Nate at 5, because we have to gut the 3rd line. If you want a top heavy team, you don't renew Nate at 5 because if you're going to be gutting elsewhere for a topline guy, you'll want to do it for someone more talented that he is. .
So you would rather roll a 4th line 8-10 minutes instead of 5-7?

We can hold on to both Kelly and Peverley if we trim numbers from forwards 9-12.

You are not going to get a more talented Nathan Horton for 5 mil. Not happening. I'd rather have the guy who shined in the postseason and have a .630 win percentage with...Bruins get a point in 7 out of every 10 games Nate is in...

Bourque/Paille/Campbell/Thornton make 4.5 million between them. Campbell makes 1.6. Wouldn't you rather replace him with Spooner's 870k and have the extra 500k to sign Nate?

You split nickels with your role players...not your top 6.

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02-15-2013, 11:01 AM
  #155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhamBamCam8 View Post
So you would rather roll a 4th line 8-10 minutes instead of 5-7?

We can hold on to both Kelly and Peverley if we trim numbers from forwards 9-12.

You are not going to get a more talented Nathan Horton for 5 mil. Not happening. I'd rather have the guy who shined in the postseason and have a .630 win percentage with...Bruins get a point in 7 out of every 10 games Nate is in...

Bourque/Paille/Campbell/Thornton make 4.5 million between them. Campbell makes 1.6. Wouldn't you rather replace him with Spooner's 870k and have the extra 500k to sign Nate?

You split nickels with your role players...not your top 6.
It doesn't matter if we would... it matters if Julien would. And he won't.

They can trim some off the 4th line, maybe replace Paille or a Campbell (most likely the former) with a cheaper option like McDermid but that is minimal savings. They won't replace both Paille and Campbell, it would change the complete outlook of that 4th line.

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02-15-2013, 11:01 AM
  #156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhamBamCam8 View Post
Bruins forwards have 157 hits total.... Lucic has 46 of them, and Bourque is 2nd.

That's horrible. Bergeron, Marchand, Krejci, Seguin, Peverley, Kelly and Paille all have under TEN hits... Good Lord is that brutal.
How does that compare to other teams in forward hits/game? That really isn't brutal since Lucic & the D make up for it, and Boston has played the least amount of games in the league. I would rather have Lucic, Chara, Boychuk, McQuaid, & Seidenberg hitting people than everyone you listed getting an extra couple hits. Overall Boston is 10th in hits. 4th or 5th in Hits/game. They also control play and have less opportunity for hits.

Hitting especially looking at only part of the team is also overrated. The best team so far, Chicago, with more games played has 133 less hits, last in the league. Pat Kane has 0 hits. The "biggest" team San Jose is 23rd, also with more games.

Boston is still one of the biggest, baddest, most physical teams when you look at the whole team and the 12 F, & 6 D that will actually play in the playoffs.

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02-15-2013, 11:24 AM
  #157
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhamBamCam8 View Post
So you would rather roll a 4th line 8-10 minutes instead of 5-7?

We can hold on to both Kelly and Peverley if we trim numbers from forwards 9-12.

You are not going to get a more talented Nathan Horton for 5 mil. Not happening. I'd rather have the guy who shined in the postseason and have a .630 win percentage with...Bruins get a point in 7 out of every 10 games Nate is in...

Bourque/Paille/Campbell/Thornton make 4.5 million between them. Campbell makes 1.6. Wouldn't you rather replace him with Spooner's 870k and have the extra 500k to sign Nate?

You split nickels with your role players...not your top 6.
An adjustment to give Nate a little bump, no problem. Trading off a couple of players to give him a 20% raise when CJ's gotta ink Rask, his backup and a D Man with the cap going down.... later Nate.

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02-15-2013, 11:25 AM
  #158
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Originally Posted by Kaoz View Post
They won't replace both Paille and Campbell, it would change the complete outlook of that 4th line.
And the special teams.

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02-15-2013, 11:37 AM
  #159
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Originally Posted by hoss75 View Post
And the special teams.
Also a good point.

The common names everyone seems to be throwing around as likely cap casualties, Campbell, Kelly, Paille, Peverley are (outside of Bergeron) this teams top PK forwards. You might see one gone, but doubtful more then that. Defense is this teams bread and butter.

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02-15-2013, 11:49 AM
  #160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaoz View Post
Also a good point.

The common names everyone seems to be throwing around as likely cap casualties, Campbell, Kelly, Paille, Peverley are (outside of Bergeron) this teams top PK forwards. You might see one gone, but doubtful more then that. Defense is this teams bread and butter.
Marchand can PK pretty well too though. I think it would be fine with either Pie or Soupy gone. I can't decide which of them I would rather keep though.

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02-15-2013, 11:51 AM
  #161
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaoz View Post
It doesn't matter if we would... it matters if Julien would. And he won't.

They can trim some off the 4th line, maybe replace Paille or a Campbell (most likely the former) with a cheaper option like McDermid but that is minimal savings. They won't replace both Paille and Campbell, it would change the complete outlook of that 4th line.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hoss75 View Post
And the special teams.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaoz View Post
Also a good point.

The common names everyone seems to be throwing around as likely cap casualties, Campbell, Kelly, Paille, Peverley are (outside of Bergeron) this teams top PK forwards. You might see one gone, but doubtful more then that. Defense is this teams bread and butter.
You guys would really keep Campbell at 1.6 mil, instead of Spooner at 800k, and Horton at 4.8 say?

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02-15-2013, 11:55 AM
  #162
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhamBamCam8 View Post
You guys would really keep Campbell at 1.6 mil, instead of Spooner at 800k, and Horton at 4.8 say?
I certainly wouldn't. Didn't mean to imply it either.

I would definitely keep Horton as we have very little size up front, and it helps he also has a boat load of skill to go along with it. I think Chia and Julien will want to as well. The record with and without him also supports this argument.

That said, I don't think they'll be as eager to completely redo the bottom two lines to accommodate it either.

If you want to keep Horton but don't want a complete redo on the bottom two lines, the solution lies elsewhere.

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02-15-2013, 11:56 AM
  #163
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What were any of these guys before they came to the Bruins? What was Soupy, Paille, Thornton, even Kelly? They are all terrific players and I love them on this team, but at some point it isn't worth paying 4th or even 3rd line guys the money they are making. It is Chia's job to find the next group of guys that can grow into what the guys they have now are. I wish the Bruins could spend all the money in the world and keep everyone, but it just isn't realistic. As good as they are at what they do, and as specialized as their talents may be, those guys are easier to replace than someone on the 1st or 2nd line. At some point Chia is going to have to work young players into those roles or find undervalued guys, like the all of those guys were at the time her brought them here.

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02-15-2013, 11:58 AM
  #164
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Originally Posted by gg4167 View Post
What were any of these guys before they came to the Bruins? What was Soupy, Paille, Thornton, even Kelly? They are all terrific players and I love them on this team, but at some point it isn't worth paying 4th or even 3rd line guys the money they are making. It is Chia's job to find the next group of guys that can grow into what the guys they have now are. I wish the Bruins could spend all the money in the world and keep everyone, but it just isn't realistic. As good as they are at what they do, and as specialized as their talents may be, those guys are easier to replace than someone on the 1st or 2nd line. At some point Chia is going to have to work young players into those roles or find undervalued guys, like the all of those guys were at the time her brought them here.
All very solid players doing exactly what they do here. They are more integral to success here because of the system, but they haven't magically gotten better since arriving.

The system won't likely be changing.

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02-15-2013, 12:02 PM
  #165
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Originally Posted by Kaoz View Post
All very solid players doing exactly what they do here. They are more integral to success here because of the system, but they haven't magically gotten better since arriving.

The system won't likely be changing.
I agree, and I think that's kinda what my point is, I think you just said it better. I think you can find "system" guys to plug in and duplicate what these guys are doing, not that these guys aren't good at what they do, but there is no need to keep paying them like they are irreplaceable.

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02-15-2013, 12:05 PM
  #166
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Originally Posted by smithformeragent View Post
You weaken the ability to roll 4 lines, and you lose IMO. Talent for talent, you're not going to be able to match up against teams like Pittsburgh and the Rangers. If you ship out Kelly/Peverley, your third line becomes completely suspect.
If you get rid of Horton your 1st line and your 3rd line become suspect. Peverley would move up to the 1st line and isn't even close to as effective as Horton in that role. That would leave the hole at 3rd line that you would have if you moved him or Kelly for cap space.

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02-15-2013, 12:25 PM
  #167
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If they resign Horton, they are going to need at minimum 2 ELC's in their forward lineup.

In a lot of ways this lockout really screwed them. There would have been a longer camp, an actual Bruins prospect who has a future with the organization would have made the roster at least giving them more flexibility going into next season.

Right now they have a career AHL player on the wing, no ELC prospects pushing to fill the spot, and are in need of an upgrade. Essentially they were pushed back a year player development wise.

This team has always used the ELC's their advantage. From Kessel, to Lucic, Marchand, Seguin, etc. They always had a good deal in the top 6. Going into next year they wont and its kind of scary. There is a huge glut of 3+mil players on the team, especially at forward, and I just don't see how they can continue with so many.

Remember, they started 2011 with 3 ELC's on forward (Seguin, Marchand, and Caron)

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02-15-2013, 12:28 PM
  #168
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patty59 View Post
If you get rid of Horton your 1st line and your 3rd line become suspect. Peverley would move up to the 1st line and isn't even close to as effective as Horton in that role. That would leave the hole at 3rd line that you would have if you moved him or Kelly for cap space.
My ideal situation was that a prospect breaks out this season on the wing, you move Krejci for a scoring winger, move Seguin to center and don't resign Horton.

Lucic-Seguin-Winger Traded for
Marchand-Bergeron-Prospect
Prospect-Peverley-Kelly

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02-15-2013, 12:31 PM
  #169
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I think if Nate falls between 4-4.5 they re-sign him. They'll keep their top 6 forwards, top 3 D (Chara, Seids, Dougie), and Rask, and figure out the rest. I think we're making this all needlessly complicated. Yes, there will be a cap crunch, but you don't mess around with your core group, which to the dismay of some here absolutely includes Krejci.

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02-15-2013, 12:53 PM
  #170
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Morris Wanchuk View Post
If they resign Horton, they are going to need at minimum 2 ELC's in their forward lineup.

In a lot of ways this lockout really screwed them. There would have been a longer camp, an actual Bruins prospect who has a future with the organization would have made the roster at least giving them more flexibility going into next season.

Right now they have a career AHL player on the wing, no ELC prospects pushing to fill the spot, and are in need of an upgrade. Essentially they were pushed back a year player development wise.

This team has always used the ELC's their advantage. From Kessel, to Lucic, Marchand, Seguin, etc. They always had a good deal in the top 6. Going into next year they wont and its kind of scary. There is a huge glut of 3+mil players on the team, especially at forward, and I just don't see how they can continue with so many.

Remember, they started 2011 with 3 ELC's on forward (Seguin, Marchand, and Caron)
I have a hard time blaming the lockout on the inability for the B's prospects to play at an NHL level this year. Caron's been so underwhelming at the AHL level that I just have a hard time seeing him being more successful at the NHL level this year, even with a full camp; he seems like he'd have failed up here instead of in Providence if he'd been given the chance to play in Boston. And the other guys in Providence seem, as of now, to still be bottom 6 guys more than top 6 guys.

More or less: the lockout should've given those guys a few more months to improve and prepare to be NHL'ers, rather than something that was to their detriment.

And if the team is going to have to rely on them to step up next year, they might need to be given some on-the-job training this year (even if it means sitting down a Thornton or a Campbell as the 13th man occasionally).

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02-15-2013, 12:53 PM
  #171
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Originally Posted by Morris Wanchuk View Post
If they resign Horton, they are going to need at minimum 2 ELC's in their forward lineup.

In a lot of ways this lockout really screwed them. There would have been a longer camp, an actual Bruins prospect who has a future with the organization would have made the roster at least giving them more flexibility going into next season.

Right now they have a career AHL player on the wing, no ELC prospects pushing to fill the spot, and are in need of an upgrade. Essentially they were pushed back a year player development wise.

This team has always used the ELC's their advantage. From Kessel, to Lucic, Marchand, Seguin, etc. They always had a good deal in the top 6. Going into next year they wont and its kind of scary. There is a huge glut of 3+mil players on the team, especially at forward, and I just don't see how they can continue with so many.

Remember, they started 2011 with 3 ELC's on forward (Seguin, Marchand, and Caron)
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02-15-2013, 12:56 PM
  #172
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I think Horton could fetch in the area of 4/20 or 5/25 on the open market and I think he's worth it. However, I don't know that a 5/25 deal really fits on this team right now. I would rather juggle 3rd and 4th line guys in order to keep Horton, since it's a lot more difficult to replace a guy in the top 6, especially one that A) You can afford and B) You know plays pretty well on YOUR team.

I hope they keep Horton. He seems to love playing here and fits in very well with the Bruins mold and culture of the team.

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02-15-2013, 01:06 PM
  #173
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Originally Posted by chuckdobbins View Post
I think Horton could fetch in the area of 4/20 or 5/25 on the open market and I think he's worth it. However, I don't know that a 5/25 deal really fits on this team right now. I would rather juggle 3rd and 4th line guys in order to keep Horton, since it's a lot more difficult to replace a guy in the top 6, especially one that A) You can afford and B) You know plays pretty well on YOUR team.

I hope they keep Horton. He seems to love playing here and fits in very well with the Bruins mold and culture of the team.
I'd agree with that, but I would first have to see what the free agent crop at F is this year. I haven't a clue

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02-15-2013, 01:07 PM
  #174
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Tough to see him get that much less than looch imho. Don't think he'll be back.

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02-15-2013, 01:13 PM
  #175
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Originally Posted by gg4167 View Post
I agree, and I think that's kinda what my point is, I think you just said it better. I think you can find "system" guys to plug in and duplicate what these guys are doing, not that these guys aren't good at what they do, but there is no need to keep paying them like they are irreplaceable.
The guys like a Kelly or Peverley are more often then not making more then 3 mill per year.

Campbell would probably be easier to replace, but you're not likely to save much getting a player of the same caliber on the open market.

Then there's the issue of devil you know vs. devil you don't.

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