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Ray Shero

View Poll Results: Do you believe in Shero?
I believe in Shero. Heīs immortal after he brough us Neal 75 43.60%
Mixed feelings, gonna give him some time 75 43.60%
No longer believing in him. He had an awful off-season 22 12.79%
Voters: 172. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
01-30-2013, 06:13 PM
  #76
Ugene Malkin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pseudomonas View Post
I find it hard to blame Shero for much of anything outside of drafting (which, since I don't faithfully follow junior hockey or anything else, I know little about) and maybe trading. Complaining that we didn't get this UFA or that UFA is a little pointless when you have no idea what kind of conversations are going on. We don't really know why we didn't get whatever free agents are available. There are 29 other teams after all. Maybe we made offers and they didn't want to sign? It's a two-way street.

As far as trades go, the trade with Dallas was great. Whitney for Kunitz/Tangradi was great too. The Staal trade remains to be seen. Who knows. But yeah, trades are a two-way street too.

Coaching and motivating the players seems to be the issue to me at least.
Finding a way to fix your drafting deficiencies and making sure your roster is enough to only needing adjustments are very much in question here. Shero certainly has made great strides in some areas, but is lacking in other very important ones.

Just drafting PMDs is not the answer, and with how GM's are picking D-man early and often that PMD surplus might not be as much of a demand for very long.

You can't make players (UFA's) sign here.

The way Cole put signing Crosby was like no other person would have been able to give him a blank check and make his own salary/contract. You can't use that as a Shero +. That + belongs to Ron and Mario giving Crosby that leeway. Really....what owner wouldn't? This will also be the same method taken with, Malkin. These guys know if they max out their salaries they (the Team) will not get very far. Reality is reality.

The Pens are far from just an adjustment. They need immediate help then an adjustment. They lack size, speed, skill, in all areas. Yes they have some waiting in the wings, but they do not have enough too support this teams ventures this season who're proven commodities before they could ever consider adjustments/depth.

They need that one forward and one D-man before the trade deadline adjustment, which that could be seen as a tweak than a full fledged replacement of a roster player. Injuries happen, load up for the who know's.

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Old
01-30-2013, 06:16 PM
  #77
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I'm trying to keep an open mind. I think eventually all the D picks might pay off but unfortunately it may not be until our window is closed or closing.

My main gripe is that I don't think he has a good eye for finding that diamond in the rough. We can all look at statistics and want players are who are doing well. I think with the stars that we have and the salary cap era a good GM (and scouting team) will look at certain characteristics his team is in need of and pursue them. I'm not talking about the obvious choices that we all want b/c they are the deals that no other GM is going to make w/o asking for more than we think it reasonable. I'm talking about identifying a player that may be struggling in his role in another organization but may flourish with ours. Those types of moves are risky but I think they are necessary.

Part of the reason he hasn't made "bad" trades is because he doesn't take any risks. I understand that there is a fine line b/w great and terrible GM's when it comes to taking risks but at the right price much of the risks could be minimized. I'd categorize Niskinan as one of those "diamond in the rough" players but I don't think Ray was targeting him either, obviously Neal was the key piece in that trade but I do give him credit for recognizing him and getting him as well when most thought he was just a throw in that was just part of the price we had to pay to get Neal.

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01-30-2013, 06:18 PM
  #78
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He got us Kunitz, Niskanen, & Neal for Whitney & Gologski. When it comes to trading I think he's great.

It's hard to blame him for Suter, Parise, Staal, Hossa. These guys have free will I don't blame him for not signing them & I don't blame him for passing up on players like Semin.

The drafting has been average at best. Still kind of hard to make a definitive answer on it. Definitely seems like he is afraid to draft outside his comfort level.

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01-30-2013, 06:18 PM
  #79
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Simon Despres is beginning his NHL career now. The next draft, we took Beau Bennett 20th.

Of the people drafted after Bennett, 7 have made it to the NHL

Dalton Prout- 5 Games for Columbus last year (6th round pick)
Brendan Gallagher- 4 Games for Montreal this year (5th round pick)
Tye McGinn- 4 Games for Philly this year (4th round pick)
Jason Zucker- 6 Games for Minny last year (2nd round pick)
Devante Smith-Pelly- 52 Games for Anaheim (2nd round pick)
Brett Bulmer- 9 Games for Minny last year (2nd round pick)
Justin Faulk- 70 Games for Carolina (2nd round pick)

then there are 3 guys at the end of the 1st who have played 1 game a piece. Thats 2 guys who should be considered NHL'ers. Give me a break


Its a little to early to say that Shero hasn't brought anything to this team.......

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01-30-2013, 06:24 PM
  #80
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also, why do people continue to say its "trolling" when someone does something we don't like? Shero is not "trolling" the fans by signing Mark Eaton. He was probably doing that to help the AHL team...they like to win also.

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01-30-2013, 06:25 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Hophog View Post
I'm trying to keep an open mind. I think eventually all the D picks might pay off but unfortunately it may not be until our window is closed or closing.
Just when do you think their window is closing?

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01-30-2013, 06:26 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by eXile59 View Post
He got us Kunitz, Niskanen, & Neal for Whitney & Gologski. When it comes to trading I think he's great.

It's hard to blame him for Suter, Parise, Staal, Hossa. These guys have free will I don't blame him for not signing them & I don't blame him for passing up on players like Semin.

The drafting has been average at best. Still kind of hard to make a definitive answer on it. Definitely seems like he is afraid to draft outside his comfort level.
It's not his fault that he couldn't sign those players, but he should be blamed for not signing any top-6 winger last year, unless you don't think there were any who were upgrades over Dupuis and Tangradi.

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01-30-2013, 06:36 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by IcedCapp View Post
Just when do you think their window is closing?
5-7 yrs from now.

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Old
01-30-2013, 06:38 PM
  #84
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5-7 yrs from now.
Going to suck being stuck with a closed windows and 30-year old superstars...

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01-30-2013, 06:41 PM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DoctrSteveBrule View Post
Simon Despres is beginning his NHL career now. The next draft, we took Beau Bennett 20th.

Of the people drafted after Bennett, 7 have made it to the NHL

Dalton Prout- 5 Games for Columbus last year (6th round pick)
Brendan Gallagher- 4 Games for Montreal this year (5th round pick)
Tye McGinn- 4 Games for Philly this year (4th round pick)
Jason Zucker- 6 Games for Minny last year (2nd round pick)
Devante Smith-Pelly- 52 Games for Anaheim (2nd round pick)
Brett Bulmer- 9 Games for Minny last year (2nd round pick)
Justin Faulk- 70 Games for Carolina (2nd round pick)

then there are 3 guys at the end of the 1st who have played 1 game a piece. Thats 2 guys who should be considered NHL'ers. Give me a break


Its a little to early to say that Shero hasn't brought anything to this team.......
Sure, focus on 2010 to current and play the "there hasnt been enough time yet" card and then ignore the 2007, 2008, and 2009 drafts that have produced notta.

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Old
01-30-2013, 06:42 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by cheesedanish87 View Post
we only have 15 players signed next year. That 11.5m is to cover 8 players. Even if u trade martin u need to add 9 players with 16.5 million. Your just not gonna have alot of money to sign wingers when u gotta pay sid and malkin.
I don't think the cap's much of an issue. You could free up another 5 mil by trading Marc Andre Softy.

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01-30-2013, 06:44 PM
  #87
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One thing to consider is that Bylsma and Shero may very well be linked. When Shero took over he was not a fan of Therrien. The success Therrien had made it difficult to fire him. Obviously firing Therrien was the right move, but make no mistake about it, Shero wanted his guy in there and he jumped at the chance when the team struggled and quit. It is different now because Shero might very well be contemplating firing his guy and I don't think he will do it. I believe these two truly believe in this team, the way it's built and the system. Look at the drafting strategy. These guys are being brought in to run this system. The only way something goes down is if it comes from the top. If it's Shero's choice, I believe Bylsma stays.

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01-30-2013, 06:45 PM
  #88
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I don't know what constraints he is under, but all things being equal his experience is a second banana to the Nashville GM. Draft D and try to compete is not what is the Pens model. He needs to either change the emphasis of his building blocks with D or go. The coaching situation is on him. How anyone brings back Dan with the disaster against the Flyers is beyond belief. Morrow is a talent an he is under the don't skate so fast our of your zone mentality. Yet he defends Martin who is now a major liability. No size on D and Orpik plays like he is magnetized and can't hit anyone by the laws of nature. If I am upper management I tell him this is unacceptable and see what he does.

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01-30-2013, 06:47 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by IcedCapp View Post
Going to suck being stuck with a closed windows and 30-year old superstars...
You mean our two stars and a few potentially good/great dmen? That's assuming Malkin is still a Penguin and Crosby is still playing.

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01-30-2013, 06:51 PM
  #90
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He has one fundamental flaw: he thinks he's still in Nashville, and has no idea how to build around truly elite offensive talent.

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01-30-2013, 06:53 PM
  #91
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Everything Ray Shero has done is predicated on playing a certain brand of hockey and on building around a three center model.

I think that model is flawed because it misses two things:

One, the brand of hockey the Pens were playing leading up to and during the 2009 playoffs is not the brand of hockey they played thereafter (the brand Bylsma coached and Shero tried to support through his moves).

Two, I think the three center model ignores how the matchups in the 2009 playoffs represented a perfect storm for the Pens: Philly (not a good defensive team, not the right personnel to match against the Pens), Washington (see Philly), Carolina (nobody to match up against Geno, and Detroit (no healthy Datsyuk).

What is forgotten is that in 2008 the Pens adopted a 2 good wingers each for Sid and Geno model. Geno had Malone and Sykora. Sid got Hossa and Dupuis (an elite winger + a borderline third wheel on a scoring line = same as two good wingers). In 2008, the Pens steamrolled the East. And, IMO, without the rookie cup jitters and a healthy Geno, it's a different cup finals.

I think that ought to the the model for the Pens. It gives them the best chance to compete. You put out the best line in hockey (two good wingers centered by the best player in hockey), and you follow that with the best line in hockey (two good wingers centered by the best player in hockey). It's an absolute match up nightmare for even the deepest teams.

You don't worry about having an abundance of 2M third line talent. You don't worry about having the highest price defenseman. Sid and Geno are the Pens advantage. They've always been the Pens advantage. Yet Shero, with the exception of 2008, never has tried to exploit it. Whether it's by choice or not might mitigate things, but nobody can argue that Shero really has focused in the last four years on exploiting his team's biggest advantage.

I also think that the Whitney and Gologoski deals have conditioned Ray Shero to think that he can create a pipeline of young mobile defensemen where he keeps some and deals others for scoring line talent. Maybe it will work out that way. But, these picks should be viewed as a means to an end, not, as it so often seems, as an end in itself. I just shudder to think that all young defensemen and picks that Shero holds won't really yield Gologoski or Whitney value until Sid and Geno are around 30. Oh, by the way, the lack of emphasis on drafting and developing young offensive talent is problematic at best.

Now, that doesn't mean that Shero is a bad GM. It doesn't mean that he isn't trying. But, in the same way that playoff results should be the ultimate judge of Dan Bylsma, they should be the ultimate judge of Ray Shero. The jury is out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jag68Sid87 View Post
He has one fundamental flaw: he thinks he's still in Nashville, and has no idea how to build around truly elite offensive talent.
He did in 2008. Sid and Geno both had the equivalent of two good wingers each.

He didn't in 2009.

BUT, the Pens won the cup in 2009 because the match ups were easier (even Detroit had Datsyuk hobbled), Malkin was healthy, the rookie cup jitters were gone, and the teams that would've given the Pens fits (Boston, New York, New Jersey) were avoided.

Instead of recognizing that and that building around and out from Sid and Geno gave his team the best chance to compete in the playoffs, he decided that the three center model, a bunch of 2M third liners, and scoring lines diluted on the wings was the way to go. After all, it won a cup ONCE.

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Old
01-30-2013, 06:55 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by IcedCapp View Post
Going to suck being stuck with a closed windows and 30-year old superstars...
Closing, isn't the same as closed. But after those guys hit 30, the window is certainly getting smaller. So yes, after 5 years our chances will be less. 7 years, when our core (assuming they're all still here) is all into their 30s will be a lot slimmer. Most of these guys are in their prime years... we need to capitalize on that now over the next couple of years.

Neal 25
Crosby 25
Letang 25
Malkin 26
MAF 28

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01-30-2013, 06:56 PM
  #93
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Bunch of ****ing cherry picked garbage by some of you...

- Traded Gogo for Neal & Nisky....
- Traded Whitney for Kunitz and Tangradi
- Signed the best player in the game to an amazing contract
- Traded a guy who was going to leave us for free in a shortened 48 game season for Sutter, 8th pick, and Dumolin
- Went after Hossa, Suter, & Parise and even though they selected other teams, we were right in the mix.
- Signed 2 of the top 4 defenders available during UFA, who unfortunately have **** the bed since. He clears cap space, like everyone wanted, w/ Michalek.


I mean.. I think we should mix both lists and see what you think. And do it for other GMs, too. Ray Shero is great. He's done an amazing job through trades. He has missed a lot in UFA but that's because players are choosing other destinations or not panning out for us. Look at the names we were going after. Hamhuis, Parise, Martin, Michalek, Hossa, Jagr.... I mean what else do you want? If he would have signed Parise, you would have all acted as if he were a God.
He also had the balls to fire a coach midseason who took his team to the finals the year before. I would say that move worked out a little.

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01-30-2013, 06:58 PM
  #94
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Yet he defends Martin who is now a major liability. No size on D and Orpik plays like he is magnetized and can't hit anyone by the laws of nature. If I am upper management I tell him this is unacceptable and see what he does.
Both Martin and Orpik have played fairly decently this year. And significantly better than last year.

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01-30-2013, 07:04 PM
  #95
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He also had the balls to fire a coach midseason who took his team to the finals the year before. I would say that move worked out a little.
Wonder if he's got the balls to do it again?

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01-30-2013, 07:05 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
Everything Ray Shero has done is predicated on playing a certain brand of hockey and on building around a three center model.

I think that model is flawed because it misses two things:

One, the brand of hockey the Pens were playing leading up to and during the 2009 playoffs is not the brand of hockey they played thereafter (the brand Bylsma coached and Shero tried to support through his moves).

Two, I think the three center model ignores how the matchups in the 2009 playoffs represented a perfect storm for the Pens: Philly (not a good defensive team, not the right personnel to match against the Pens), Washington (see Philly), Carolina (nobody to match up against Geno, and Detroit (no healthy Datsyuk).

What is forgotten is that in 2008 the Pens adopted a 2 good wingers each for Sid and Geno model. Geno had Malone and Sykora. Sid got Hossa and Dupuis (an elite winger + a borderline third wheel on a scoring line = same as two good wingers). In 2008, the Pens steamrolled the East. And, IMO, without the rookie cup jitters and a healthy Geno, it's a different cup finals.

I think that ought to the the model for the Pens. It gives them the best chance to compete. You put out the best line in hockey (two good wingers centered by the best player in hockey), and you follow that with the best line in hockey (two good wingers centered by the best player in hockey). It's an absolute match up nightmare for even the deepest teams.

You don't worry about having an abundance of 2M third line talent. You don't worry about having the highest price defenseman. Sid and Geno are the Pens advantage. They've always been the Pens advantage. Yet Shero, with the exception of 2008, never has tried to exploit it. Whether it's by choice or not might mitigate things, but nobody can argue that Shero really has focused in the last four years on exploiting his team's biggest advantage.

I also think that the Whitney and Gologoski deals have conditioned Ray Shero to think that he can create a pipeline of young mobile defensemen where he keeps some and deals others for scoring line talent. Maybe it will work out that way. But, these picks should be viewed as a means to an end, not, as it so often seems, as an end in itself. I just shudder to think that all young defensemen and picks that Shero holds won't really yield Gologoski or Whitney value until Sid and Geno are around 30. Oh, by the way, the lack of emphasis on drafting and developing young offensive talent is problematic at best.

Now, that doesn't mean that Shero is a bad GM. It doesn't mean that he isn't trying. But, in the same way that playoff results should be the ultimate judge of Dan Bylsma, they should be the ultimate judge of Ray Shero. The jury is out.



He did in 2008. Sid and Geno both had the equivalent of two good wingers each.

He didn't in 2009.

BUT, the Pens won the cup in 2009 because the match ups were easier (even Detroit had Datsyuk hobbled), Malkin was healthy, the rookie cup jitters were gone, and the teams that would've given the Pens fits (Boston, New York, New Jersey) were avoided.

Instead of recognizing that and that building around and out from Sid and Geno gave his team the best chance to compete in the playoffs, he decided that the three center model, a bunch of 2M third liners, and scoring lines diluted on the wings was the way to go. After all, it won a cup ONCE.
Yeah, the three-center model is only a three-center model if you actually CARE about who plays with said centers. It would appear Shero no longer cares who is playing with Sid, or Geno, or even Sutter. Funny, we never talk about Sutter's wingers (because we have enough to cover with 87 and 71), but Sutter's current wingers were perfect for Staal. For Sutter, he could use more skill there (take a number, Brandon).

If you're going to commit to drafting defensemen early and often, or always take the BPA no matter what, you better make damn sure you're able to get the missing parts through other channels. We haven't done that. And yet, we're supposed to contend for a Stanley Cup every year.

If, under Shero, we would sign the occasional Cory Conacher or Damien Brunner, draft the occasional John Gaudreau, claim the occasional Michael Grabner or even make a small trade for the occasional Teddy Purcell, nobody would take any issue with the drafting philosophy/mentality. But we don't do those things either, so the draft then is magnified.

That is a big problem.

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01-30-2013, 07:13 PM
  #97
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Closing, isn't the same as closed. But after those guys hit 30, the window is certainly getting smaller. So yes, after 5 years our chances will be less. 7 years, when our core (assuming they're all still here) is all into their 30s will be a lot slimmer. Most of these guys are in their prime years... we need to capitalize on that now over the next couple of years.

Neal 25
Crosby 25
Letang 25
Malkin 26
MAF 28
Being in your prime does mean you tend to play the best hockey of your career? Im wondering, when is he going to start?

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01-30-2013, 07:14 PM
  #98
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That's 11.5m to sign 2 3rd line wingers, Dupuis (to either play 3rd wheel in the top 6 or as a 3rd liner), and your 4th line. At most that's somewhere between 5-7m MAX. And a 7th D (rookies on an ELC so 700-800k). And if you move Martin, that free's up another 5m. Which means that with Martin, you have between 4.5-7.5m to sign a winger as long as it expires at the end of next season. Obviously the less the contract is, the easier it is to fit it on a longer term deal.

You're not getting it. Cap space (currently - or for next season) IS NOT OUR ISSUE.

Come year 3, then there's more of a concern (assuming you signed said winger for more than 2 seasons) as Letang and Malkin's new contracts kick in. But even then you still have outs. You trade Cooke (who'll likely get 1.5-2.0m if he stays) or someone like him. Or you buy our Martin's 5m, and play some of those rookies who are in WBS.

We're not Calgary who's tied down with tons of old crappy contracts with lots of NTC's. Look, if you go look at any post I've written when it comes to how cap space is used, you'll see that I'm pretty conservative, and truly value it. However when Shero moved Z and didn't get any salary in return, he really free'd up a lot of space. So basically the rest of this season, and next season cap space is meaningless, and there's absolutely no reason not to use every bit of it.
Just want to add a couple of notes to this...

As far as I know, the cap after next season isn't fixed, so I'm guessing it will go up conservatively around a couple million.

You also have Kunitz coming off the books after next season. At 35 yrs old, I'm not sure he will be re-signed. That's another 3.7 you can potentially take off the books. Hopefully BB can step in next season and make Kunitz expendable. BB will still be on his ELC for 900k in 14-15.

So there is a lot of flexibility there when it will be needed in 14-15.

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01-30-2013, 07:15 PM
  #99
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Crosby should go into Shero's office like this demanding a winger:


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01-30-2013, 07:17 PM
  #100
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Does anyone in here honestly believe that Dan Bylsma can lead this team to another Cup win, or even Final? I have no faith in him.

This is the Ray Shero thread. I am aware. Thus, I must ask, who would Shero target as a replacement if Bylsma was shown the door?

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