The bottom line is, well, the bottom line. As KIRK points out, we have to start seeing playoff results. No matter how good Ray Shero is at trading, or how nice of a guy he appears to be. If he doesn't win another Cup relatively soon, he'll be gone.
This isn't a fair business, but it is what it is. And when you have two of the best players in the world, not just one, you have a target around your head. Win or else.
He doesn't have to win a Cup, but I would like to see more consistent damage done in the playoffs. Here's my extremely flimsy criteria I came up with right off the top of my head:
1) First round exits are not acceptable
2) Second round exits should at least be hard fought, good series'
3) The special teams should NEVER be as bad as they've been lately in the playoffs or a firing is warranted.
I that's pretty fair.
PS: As far as viewing the team from a "Cup or bust" perspective, yeah I wish others would do the same. It would clear out a lot of clutter around here, but I guess it's a cozier feeling to talk about the team in a vacuum.
That's in direct contrast to what you said here though:
No it's not. The 6 year pattern shows a downward trend in playoff performance after a promising first 3 years.
You said look at the 6 year record. I provided context. You don't like the context.
Fair enough. I'm not surprised.
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Originally Posted by UnderratedBrooks44
He doesn't have to win a Cup, but I would like to see more consistent damage done in the playoffs. Here's my extremely flimsy criteria I came up with right off the top of my head:
1) First round exits are not acceptable
2) Second round exits should at least be hard fought, good series'
3) The special teams should NEVER be as bad as they've been lately in the playoffs or a firing is warranted.
I that's pretty fair.
PS: As far as viewing the team from a "Cup or bust" perspective, yeah I wish others would do the same. It would clear out a lot of clutter around here, but I guess it's a cozier feeling to talk about the team in a vacuum.
Cup or bust is a bit extreme, because, no matter how good you are, you need to get the proverbial breaks (like the Pens in 2009 not seeing a top end defensive team in the East and having Datsyuk playing with pretty much a broken ankle in the finals). Me . . . I go by 1/2/3 as you cite above.
- Hossa was 2008 and Guerin was 2009. He can't continue to get a free pass for doing nothing positive at the TDl since 2009.
Neal. Last year the prices were ridicilously high. 1st for Gaustad? No thanks. Sometimes good asset management is more important than mediocre TDL acquisitions.
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Originally Posted by Ragamuffin Gunner
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- The Neal and Kunitz trades were amazing, there is no denying that. However, you can't forget trades that didn't work out (Poni, Z) or the fact that Shero still hasn't found Sid a winger via trade (cause he sure as hell isn't doing it through the draft).
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How can you say Z trade didn't work out? It accomplished 100% of what Shero intended, which was to clear cap space. Sure he could've got more for Z but his main goal was to clear cap space to try to get Suter/Parise.
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Originally Posted by Ragamuffin Gunner
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- How can "going after big time FAs" be a plus? It doesn't matter if he tries to go after them if he fails to sign them. Especially if he totally snubs every other FA while trying to get the best FA (ZP last summer).
OK it's not like he has some magical power to force FAs to sign here. It's a 2 way street. He went out and made a real push to sign elite FAs last summer in Parise and Weber. By all accounts Parise was very close to signing here. Shero has nothing to do with Parise chosing to sign in Minny. Same with Hamhuis and Hossa.
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Originally Posted by Ragamuffin Gunner
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The last things are basically saying that Shero doesn't take risks, which is why he only goes after sure things and signs 3rd line vets. At some point patience turns from a positive to a negative, and IMO we're about there.
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Yes, let's trade valuable assets for mediocre acquisitions. Let's trade a 1st for Paul Gaustad, or three 1sts for an aging Chris Pronger. That'll solve our D problems! Every acquisition and transaction has a degree of "risk" to it. The fact that Shero doesn't take "risks", aka stupid deals, is a good thing.
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Originally Posted by Ragamuffin Gunner
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Also, with all is vet bottom 6 signings, and DB's boner for those guys, our prospects don't get any time to develop.
Penguins, under DB, never had any legit forwards prospects who needed time to develop. The only semi significant F prospects was Tangradi, and he got a significant chance in 2011 when Sid and Geno got injured, and again last year on the 4th line. He was outscored by Craig Adams! He has 1 fluke goal in his entire 40 something game career. Jeffrey and Vitale got a shot and both took advantage. Bylsma has nothing to do with prospects not developing. Perhaps the lack of NHL caliber forwards in the farm is a legit gripe for Shero. Even so, it's not an issue because the pens consistently have an upper echelon offense. And it's not like the core players are old or in danger of leaving. Yes, even Geno and Thetang.
Last edited by Ziggyjoe21: 02-07-2013 at 09:47 AM.
Cup or bust is a bit extreme, because, no matter how good you are, you need to get the proverbial breaks (like the Pens in 2009 not seeing a top end defensive team in the East and having Datsyuk playing with pretty much a broken ankle in the finals). Me . . . I go by 1/2/3 as you cite above.
As usual I worded that in a clunky way. When I say "view the team from a Cup or bust perspective" I mean when evaluating talent and needs. A better way to phrase it would be viewing the roster with the Cup in mind. I think most people view it as "Do we have a good team or a bad team" and you have to go far beyond that.
As usual I worded that in a clunky way. When I say "view the team from a Cup or bust perspective" I mean when evaluating talent and needs. A better way to phrase it would be viewing the roster with the Cup in mind. I think most people view it as "Do we have a good team or a bad team" and you have to go far beyond that.
Actually, I pretty much agreed with the standard that you set. First round losses are not acceptable period. A hard fought second round loss you can understand because you're not always going to get the type of breaks you need to advance further. By that standard, the Pens playoff performance since winning the cup has not been acceptable.
Neal. Last year the prices were ridicilously high. 1st for Gaustad? No thanks. Sometimes good asset management is more important than mediocre TDL acquisitions.
Yes, let's trade valuable assets for mediocre acquisitions. Let's trade a 1st for Paul Gaustad, or three 1sts for an aging Chris Pronger. That'll solve our D problems! Every acquisition and transaction has a degree of "risk" to it. The fact that Shero doesn't take "risks", aka stupid deals, is a good thing.
Just to be fair and accurate, Gaustad went ALONG WITH a fourth rounder for a first rounder. I know people don't usually care about draft picks beyond the first round or two, but it wasn't a straight Gaustad for a 1st rounder deal.
I'm not saying I would have paid it, because I wouldn't, and it was steep in my book, but it wasn't like Poile gave up a first for Gaustad alone. And to Poile's credit, he was able to re-sign Gaustad as well. So the deal doesn't look nearly as bad as it might have.
Just to be fair and accurate, Gaustad went ALONG WITH a fourth rounder for a first rounder. I know people don't usually care about draft picks beyond the first round or two, but it wasn't a straight Gaustad for a 1st rounder deal.
I'm not saying I would have paid it, because I wouldn't, and it was steep in my book, but it wasn't like Poile gave up a first for Gaustad alone. And to Poile's credit, he was able to re-sign Gaustad as well. So the deal doesn't look nearly as bad as it might have.
Just wanted to point this out.
3.25M . . . not a bad number.
That's the gamble . . . renting Guastad for a late 1st isn't worth it. Renting and then signing him probably is.
Not to say anything that hasn't been said already, and I may turn out to be dead wrong, but...I absolutely HATED the Pouliot pick. A unique opportunity to add some top wing talent to the org., and Shero reaches for a guy who was reduntant in the system and whose upside wasn't even worthy of the draft slot. Blah.
Not to say anything that hasn't been said already, and I may turn out to be dead wrong, but...I absolutely HATED the Pouliot pick. A unique opportunity to add some top wing talent to the org., and Shero reaches for a guy who was reduntant in the system and whose upside wasn't even worthy of the draft slot. Blah.
Calgary seemed to like him a lot. Just saying . . .
No it's not. The 6 year pattern shows a downward trend in playoff performance after a promising first 3 years.
You said look at the 6 year record. I provided context. You don't like the context.
I know, I know. Everything's a trend.
You laid out Shero's 6 year tenure hoping it would be interpreted one way, but it can obviously be interpreted in another. The most relevant context that's missing, IMHO, is the extenuating circumstances of our recent 1st round exits.
When Malkin and Crosby have been in the line-up, we've had exactly one first round exit since '08, and in that year one of our superstars had just come back from a year and a half hiatus.
Its a little disingenuous to talk about higher expectations for a GM who has Crosby and Malkin to work with, and then ignore the fact that they've either been out of commission or less than 100% in both our recent 1st round exits.
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Fair enough. I'm not surprised.
C'mon KIRK. We've had a few disagreements on here, but let's not get saucy.
Not to say anything that hasn't been said already, and I may turn out to be dead wrong, but...I absolutely HATED the Pouliot pick. A unique opportunity to add some top wing talent to the org., and Shero reaches for a guy who was reduntant in the system and whose upside wasn't even worthy of the draft slot. Blah.
The Pens don't have a better PPQB in the entire organization and IMO Pouliot is the only Pens prospect with elite ability. Sure the Pens have some solid prospects like Bennett and Morrow but Pouliot has natural QBing skills like very few do.
That being said I hate the defense, defense, defense mentality. I'm guess the Pens go heavy on D because its such a taught position. So even if a player doesn't fully pan out they still can make them into a pretty good player as opposed to if a scorer can't score.
Also they might figure that they have half of their top 6 in their long term plans with Bennett on the pending list. Thats less spots to fill.
Still BPA is the way to go. The better player will always be more tradable down the line and theres still a need in the top 6. You can't predict injury or even a player leaving. If you really think about BPA though... at #8 its Vasilevski, a goalie.
The Pens don't have a better PPQB in the entire organization and IMO Pouliot is the only Pens prospect with elite ability. Sure the Pens have some solid prospects like Bennett and Morrow but Pouliot has natural QBing skills like very few do.
That being said I hate the defense, defense, defense mentality. I'm guess the Pens go heavy on D because its such a taught position. So even if a player doesn't fully pan out they still can make them into a pretty good player as opposed to if a scorer can't score.
Also they might figure that they have half of their top 6 in their long term plans with Bennett on the pending list. Thats less spots to fill.
Still BPA is the way to go. The better player will always be more tradable down the line and theres still a need in the top 6. You can't predict injury or even a player leaving. If you really think about BPA though... at #8 its Vasilevski, a goalie.
The "you can always trade them" point does have it's problems though. As was fleshed out in the winger thread, it's going to be awfully tough for all these D to even crack the line-up in due time, and trading a guy before they ever set foot in the NHL can be a problematic thing.
I get the BPA philosophy, but in a lot of these cases, it makes sense when the BPA is a clear cut proposition. In many cases it's a crapshoot where you're fooling yourself if you think that you really know who the BP is between a couple 18 year olds. Maybe Shero just didn't rate Forsberg and Grigorenko, but damn man, IDK.
As of now Shero is giving away NHL D for nothing, while at the same time scrounging the earth for serviceable wingers, so hell. But what do I know.
Two main principles in losing last spring were the No. 1 goaltender and the head coach. Shero has a say in how long both keep their jobs.
Fleury is not a bad enough goaltender that he's solely responsible, I don't know what's with this Fleury stuff. The defense was having brain farts throughout the entire series and they were on the PK too much and weren't killing any penalties either. Those are all related. Sorry not bashing you I mostly agree, but the whole team was suspect that entire series.
Last edited by UnderratedBrooks44: 02-07-2013 at 02:13 PM.
So...how many GMs have a better track record over that period?
That can easily be turned into, "how any GMs have the two best players in the world?"
Shero has had one the the best, if not the best, core in the league since he got here so the "how many GMs have a better track record over that period" argument isn't as strong as it sounds.
That can easily be turned into, "how any GMs have the two best players in the world?"
Shero has had one the the best, if not the best, core in the league since he got here so the "how many GMs have a better track record over that period" argument isn't as strong as it sounds.
That was just addressed a few posts up. Malkin and Sid were gone for one of our 1st round exits, and Sid was still calibrating after a long, long layoff when we played Philly, IMO.
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Originally Posted by UnderratedBrooks44
There were no extenuating circumstances around last year's playoffs beyond what teams normally go through. The roster was more or less sound.
Even if you believe Sid was 100% that series, that still leaves only one 1st round exit since '08 with both Sid and Geno in the line-up. How people believe that's an unacceptable track record worthy of potential dismissal after all the good Shero's done is beyond me.
Two main principles in losing last spring were the No. 1 goaltender and the head coach. Shero has a say in how long both keep their jobs.
So who's fault is not having a capable backup in case MAF has a bad series or so he doesn't have to play something like 20+ games in a row down the stretch? And who hired DB?
Also, do you think that MAF should get a free pass for the last three years of poor play because he was great in 2008 and 2009?
Last edited by Ragamuffin Gunner: 02-07-2013 at 02:35 PM.
That was just addressed a few posts up. Malkin and Sid were gone for one of our 1st round exits, and Sid was still calibrating after a long, long layoff when we played Philly, IMO.
Yes they were out in 2011, but the Pens still should have won that series after being up 3-1.
You can't give him a pass for last year. Sid was back long enough that he was adjusted.
He's not perfect but he's got a damn fine batting average. And he's not afraid to take some (calculated) risks. I'm pretty happy with Shero. This summer wasn't great however but it wasn't very good for anyone outside of Minnesota. We all sat there waiting for Parise & Suter to make up their minds while lesser stars were getting signed up.
Fleury is not a bad enough goaltender that he's solely responsible, I don't know what's with this Fleury stuff. The defense was having brain farts throughout the entire series and they were on the PK too much and weren't killing any penalties either. Those are all related. Sorry not bashing you I mostly agree, but the whole team was suspect that entire series.
This is what I don't like. I admit: I'm a Fleury supporter and there is no way to argue against his playoff performance. What I don't like about the whole situation is that there were 18 skaters in front of him and a coaching staff that **** the bed also but Fleury takes nearly all of the blame since he was teh worst of the lot. And to be hoenst; I'm surprised the Pens lasted as long as they did. They played terrible the last month and the writing was on the wall for a playoff choke. What happened should not have been a surprise.
Even if you believe Sid was 100% that series, that still leaves only one 1st round exit since '08 with both Sid and Geno in the line-up. How people believe that's an unacceptable track record worthy of potential dismissal after all the good Shero's done is beyond me.
I don't know if he was 100%, but it wasn't like he showed up 15 minutes before the start of game 1. He blew up the Isles his first game back and had plenty of time to get in the groove. Again, if he wasn't 100% he was still there and still playing.
As for Shero, I think I'm guilty of forgetting the thread title. I was just speaking in general terms, and more about Bylsma if anything.
