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Giroux vs. Tavares

View Poll Results: Who do you take on your team, now and in the future?
Claude Giroux 73 30.80%
John Tavares 164 69.20%
Voters: 237. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
01-31-2013, 05:39 PM
  #126
SMantzas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roo Mad Bro View Post
Lettuce discuss how right I am:

2011-2012

Claude Giroux:

-8th in the NHL in P/60 among forwards with > 60 games played (at 5 v 5 aka ES).

-61st in the NHL in total ES TOI last year (1,185:07)
-47th in the NHL in ES TOI/G (15:23/G)

TL;DR he was such a dominant special teams player, both on PP AND PK, that if his PP time would drop, he would just pick up more ES minutes (where he was still an elite producer).
I'm not saying he isn't a good ES player, but there would certainly be a drop off. On the PP, there are generally 6 forwards being used. 5 v 5 there are 12 being used (of course 4th lines dont see much ice time, but they would take minutes away from Claude). The additional defender and less overall ice time would certainly hurt his numbers and I dont see how you can argue otherwise

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Old
01-31-2013, 06:57 PM
  #127
Nullus Reverentia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shutdown Sutter View Post
That isn't true. The best players on the team will draw the same matchups as the best players on other teams. Giroux and Tavares, as the top threats on their team, will both draw the toughest matchups and face the Brandon Sutters, Patrice Bergerons, and Jordan Staals of the world.




Quite possibly the most stupid question ever posed on these boards.



So basically you're saying:

"Giroux has done nothing more than Tavares to make him elite other than produce at an elite level."

Thank you for proving my point.



You're overthinking it. Elite players are players who produce at an elite level and/or have the hardware to back it up. Tavares has not produced at an elite level, and therefore has not won or even been nominated for any awards set aside for elite players. Therefore, Tavares is not an elite player.
You're absolutely wrong on the first point, compltely and utterly wrong. You think if a team has 3 quality scoring lines, they'll throw their shutdown line at and only at the first line? It doesn't matter that they both will draw the top shudown pairing I never said that, however, the team with only one scoring line will always draw that shutdown pairing. When you can role three lines, you either send out an inferior shudown line against the other lines or you stagger ice time. You're basically saying "Nope, that doesn't happen" and leaving it at that.

Kind of like the rest of your argument. Like your next point. You're saying accomplishments make an elite player yet Giroux has no significant advantage in accomplishments to Tavares. But of course you know that, that's why you use a fallacy.

Which again, relates to your next point as well. If you are an elite player you score 90 points. How do you "prove" this? You say a player who scores 90 points is an elite player. That's circular reasoning, you're preassuming what you say is true because of a previous claim you made.

You've failed to justify why Tavares isn't an elite player. All you've done is say that scoring depth has nothing to do with how effective a team can shutdown a player, you've argued accomplishments or 90 points makes a player elite yet this thread is talking about a player who doesn't have more accomplishments than Tavares.

Long story short, you're pretending like scoring depth means nothing, then using logical fallacies to "prove" the rest of your point.

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Old
01-31-2013, 07:27 PM
  #128
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Well let's look at age comparisons:
Tavares:
Age 19- 54 points in 82 games
Age 20- 67 points in 79 games
Age 21- 81 points in 82 games

Giroux:
Age 19- 106 points playing in the QMJHL
Age 20- 27 points in 42 games
Age 21- 47 points in 82 games
Age 22- 76 points in 82 games

Tavares has been better at a younger age, Let's wait until he hits his prime to judge this.

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Old
01-31-2013, 11:22 PM
  #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SMantzas View Post
Wait, you mean he's not the best player in the league!? Dammit, Lavi is a liar


Malkin
Crosby
Stamkos
Kopitar
Karlsson
Weber
Lundqvist

^all better than him.

If Philly didnt get spoonfed PP time, he wouldn't have come close to his point totals. If they (the Flyers) get league average, he'd be around 80 pts
Giroux was 8th in the league in even strength points per 60 @ 5 on 5. He had a better G/60, A1/60, and A2/60 than John Tavares. So much for Giroux doing all his damage on the PP?

Oh, and fwiw, Giroux was also more productive than JT across the board on the power-play in terms of G/60, A1/60, and A2/60.

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Old
02-01-2013, 12:03 AM
  #130
Riseonfire
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dwanmaster View Post
Well let's look at age comparisons:
Tavares:
Age 19- 54 points in 82 games
Age 20- 67 points in 79 games
Age 21- 81 points in 82 games

Giroux:
Age 19- 106 points playing in the QMJHL
Age 20- 27 points in 42 games
Age 21- 47 points in 82 games
Age 22- 76 points in 82 games

Tavares has been better at a younger age, Let's wait until he hits his prime to judge this.
This is probably the most objective post here. Good display.

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Old
02-01-2013, 12:43 AM
  #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Machinehead View Post
Before we get into "Tavares AINECZOMGBBQ!!!!111!!one!! cause Tavares plays for a terrible team"....

Matt Moulson is easily a better goal scorer than Scott Hartnell. PA Parenteau produced more than anyone on Grioux's RW last year. I don't see where team comes into play.
Moral, momentum, chemistry. Just to name a few.

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Old
02-01-2013, 01:46 AM
  #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shutdown Sutter View Post
That isn't true. The best players on the team will draw the same matchups as the best players on other teams. Giroux and Tavares, as the top threats on their team, will both draw the toughest matchups and face the Brandon Sutters, Patrice Bergerons, and Jordan Staals of the world.
I think the better the team you are on, the better chance you will play more games where teams start running up goals(say your up 4-1 with 10 minutes, all of a sudden the other team starts taking chances and your team gets 2 meaningless goals due to mistakes made by the other team taking chance)

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Old
02-01-2013, 07:53 AM
  #133
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John Tavares without even thinking twice

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Old
02-01-2013, 08:05 AM
  #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dellstrom View Post
Put Tavares on a good team and he'd be a top 5 player easily.
Or just leave him where he is & he's still a top 5 player.

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Old
02-01-2013, 08:12 AM
  #135
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Originally Posted by Shaolin 36 View Post
Or just leave him where he is & he's still a top 5 player.
Haha, that was pretty good.

Tavares could use a little more help on his line. Moulson is invisible when he's not scoring and Okposo has been sub par so far. If they pick up their play and take away some of the heavy lifting off of his shoulders, he could challenge for the scoring title this year.

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Old
02-01-2013, 08:15 AM
  #136
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This is really tough. I'd flip a coin.

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Old
02-01-2013, 08:15 AM
  #137
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Tavares

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Old
02-01-2013, 09:34 AM
  #138
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Love both, watch em' both, but Tavares and AINEC for me.

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Old
02-01-2013, 10:57 AM
  #139
boredmale
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This poll should have had 4 options

Giroux better now, better future
Tavares better now, better future
Giroux better now, Tavares better future
Tavares better now, Giroux better future

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Old
02-01-2013, 11:19 AM
  #140
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giroux. guys a monster. coming from a devils fan who sees plenty of both of these players. i have been far more impressed with claude then i have ever been with tavares.
tavares is the big weapon on a crappy team. hence, the coach looks to work him in more. and its not to say that tavares doesnt have good talent beside him. he has moulson, and arguably the fastest guy in the league in grabner. i think giroux easily here. he made hartnell, a scrub with little hockey sense, go to a 30 goal scorer. hes also better defensively and hes a better playmaker. if i were looking for a franchise player, that i would sign a long term contract with, itd be giroux. you can fit him with anyone and he will still produce. idk if tavares would be able to do the same.


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02-01-2013, 11:46 AM
  #141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lboogie42 View Post
giroux. guys a onster. coing from a devils fan who sees plenty of both of these players. i have been far more impressed with claude then i have ever been with tavares.
tavares is the big weapon on a crappy team. hence, the coach looks to work him in more. and its not to say that tavares doesnt have good talent beside him. he has moulson, and arguably the fastest guy in the league in grabner. i think giroux easily here. he made hartnell, a scrub with little hockey sense, go to a 30 goal scorer. hes also better defensively and hes a better playmaker. if i were looking for a franchise player, that i would sign a long term contract with, itd be giroux. you can fit him with anyone and he will still produce. idk if tavares would be able to do the same.
That's usually the pro-Tavares argument and comparing Hartnell to Moulson is not the same. Hartnell was no scrub, he was a #6 overall pick who also had success in Nashville (I think he had a 30 goal season there if I'm not mistaken) while Moulson was a 9th rounder and a career AHLer until he got his shot with JT. Even now, Hartnell is the superior overall player to Moulson who can only finish.

Also, Grabner has never been paired with Tavares aside from a couple of games a couple of years ago. Grabner's regular linemate has been Frans Nielsen for the majority of his Isles career.

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02-01-2013, 12:29 PM
  #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lboogie42 View Post
giroux. guys a onster. coing from a devils fan who sees plenty of both of these players. i have been far more impressed with claude then i have ever been with tavares.
tavares is the big weapon on a crappy team. hence, the coach looks to work him in more. and its not to say that tavares doesnt have good talent beside him. he has moulson, and arguably the fastest guy in the league in grabner. i think giroux easily here. he made hartnell, a scrub with little hockey sense, go to a 30 goal scorer. hes also better defensively and hes a better playmaker. if i were looking for a franchise player, that i would sign a long term contract with, itd be giroux. you can fit him with anyone and he will still produce. idk if tavares would be able to do the same.
Maybe you should watch Tavares play before you make another silly comment like that.

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02-01-2013, 12:33 PM
  #143
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Originally Posted by 19NYSports91 View Post
Maybe you should watch Tavares play before you make another silly comment like that.
did u not see my post? i see plenty of the isles. 6 games a season plus the games i choose to watch for fun. i know what im talking bout bro

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Old
02-01-2013, 12:34 PM
  #144
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Originally Posted by PWJunior View Post
That's usually the pro-Tavares argument and comparing Hartnell to Moulson is not the same. Hartnell was no scrub, he was a #6 overall pick who also had success in Nashville (I think he had a 30 goal season there if I'm not mistaken) while Moulson was a 9th rounder and a career AHLer until he got his shot with JT. Even now, Hartnell is the superior overall player to Moulson who can only finish.

Also, Grabner has never been paired with Tavares aside from a couple of games a couple of years ago. Grabner's regular linemate has been Frans Nielsen for the majority of his Isles career.
yea, i dint realize til after i posted. hes usually with okposo. my bad.

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02-01-2013, 12:48 PM
  #145
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Tavares AINEC

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Old
02-01-2013, 12:56 PM
  #146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lboogie42 View Post
did u not see my post? i see plenty of the isles. 6 games a season plus the games i choose to watch for fun. i know what im talking bout bro
No, you really don't. PWJunior already debunked everything you said.




The horror for the Flyers and Islanders to have to have Giroux and Tavares, respectively. I'll take either of them on my team, preferably both.

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Old
02-01-2013, 01:03 PM
  #147
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As a Flyers fan, as much as it sucks to say, I'd take Tavares if I had to pick one for the rest of their career.

For the next few years though, I'd definitely take Giroux. Also, Giroux for the playoffs.

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Old
02-01-2013, 01:06 PM
  #148
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No, you really don't. PWJunior already debunked everything you said.




The horror for the Flyers and Islanders to have to have Giroux and Tavares, respectively. I'll take either of them on my team, preferably both.
actually no he didnt. hartnell was not very good before playing with giroux. and his arguement of hartnell being better then moulson is a whole different topic. giroux is the better all around player then JT. IMO anyway.

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Old
02-01-2013, 03:00 PM
  #149
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Wow, this thread is just a bunch of whining. I don't think anyone can say "AINEC." These players are in fact very close and I would love to have either on the Rangers going forward.

If I want to win the Cup right now, I'm taking Giroux, but in the future, I'm taking Tavares. Both are fantastic hockey players, both are top-5 skaters in the Atlantic (I'd say top-10 players in the league) and both have great careers ahead of them.

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Old
02-01-2013, 03:07 PM
  #150
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Nice to see you again Shutdown Sutter. Glad to see you are still ******** over Tavares lighting your team up on a regular basis. Maybe next time they play he can prove to you that he is "elite", although I'm assuming the better he performs the harder you will try to prove that he isn't that good.

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