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Suspected overpayment to Men's hockey players at DAL

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01-09-2013, 09:07 AM
  #1
rantfather
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Suspected overpayment to Men's hockey players at DAL

IF the above is to be the tree that Pete Belliveau is to be hanged upon then make room for others.

IF the CIS thinks or anybody else.believes that this is not a widespread practice in the AUS,then initiate audits of all programs starting with STU and clarify.

When the story is finally released I will have MUCH more to.say on this subject.

It must be interesting to note that NOT one A/D has made a definitive statement clearing their school of such violations.

Stay tuned!

RANTFATHER

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01-09-2013, 12:22 PM
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this isn't just an AUS phenomenon, payola has raised it's ugly head in the CW division as well and for sure it infects more sports than just hockey like football in the OUA.

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01-09-2013, 02:38 PM
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Why start with STU? They dont even play with a full line up to begin with and over the last few years havent brought in many recruits so I wouldnt be looking at them. Also CIS COULD look at football in the RSEQ with Laval, Montreal and Sherbrooke, fast, non traditional powerhouses over the past 15 years.

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01-09-2013, 03:43 PM
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Audits

You start with STU because Rantfather has a hate on for Mike Eagles.

Firstly, an audit of the programs would not reveal too much because these things are generally done "under the table" and are not known to the administration. I'm not saying that nothing would be uncovered, but I think, for the most part, that ADs are not stupid and would not allow blatant behaviour. My understanding of the Dal situation is that it was of such a magnitude that the uni could not handle it internally and opted to go to the CIS and confess.

If I'm hearing things correctly, over the past couple of years players were given apartments and other inducements well in excess of what would be considered even remotely improper. Some of these players are still playing for Dal.

I will add that my "sources" are not front line Dal people, but are people with contacts in the Dal administration. Until there is a published report by either Dal or the CIS all of this remains conjecture and speculation. It may well be that the infractions are not a serious as alleged and that Dal is using this as an excuse to rid themselves of a person they tried to fire a year ago.

Edit: Further to Rantfather's "rant": It is not necessary for other ADs to stand up and say "We are innocent of any wrongdoing". No other schools are being investigated to my knowledge.


Last edited by AUS Fan: 01-09-2013 at 03:49 PM.
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01-09-2013, 04:48 PM
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I hope this doesn't lead to the program getting cut.

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01-09-2013, 08:55 PM
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I would not put it past Dal to gas both the men's and women's programs. Money is the prime motivator for that school. Athletics are a distant 2nd.

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01-10-2013, 12:32 AM
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Rob
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AUS Fan View Post
I would not put it past Dal to gas both the men's and women's programs. Money is the prime motivator for that school. Athletics are a distant 2nd.
Isn't the university building a new rink though?

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01-10-2013, 08:04 AM
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Isn't the university building a new rink though?
Eventually. But they first have the musical chairs act of finishing the new multi-use building next to the site of the now-demolished rink, and then tearing down some "temporary" residences (that have been there a long time) after the new multi-use building is finished (and folks move in), and then they say they will build the new rink where the old residences used to be.

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01-10-2013, 09:01 AM
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No so fast, 'Foyle. My understanding is that there is an agreement with the South Enders that Dal will not build beyond a certain geographical area. Said area is where the old Eliza Ritchie Women's res is located, which will be demolished in due time. Every now and then I hear of Dal-SMU building a 2 pad surface near SMU where a grammer school now sits. Obviously, City money would be needed for such a venture.


Edit: Apologies to Rantfather for getting off track in this thread. We should start a new one re: rinks and other stuff.

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01-10-2013, 09:28 AM
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FreddtFoyle
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In other words the new Dal rink is a moving target and we shouldn't hold our breath ...

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01-10-2013, 04:03 PM
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Article from the Herald....sounds like the CIS won't make any announcement for atleast a couple weeks.

http://thechronicleherald.ca/sports/...l-men-s-hockey

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01-11-2013, 07:30 AM
  #12
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Why initiate with STU....

Quote:
Originally Posted by rantfather View Post
IF the above is to be the tree that Pete Belliveau is to be hanged upon then make room for others.

IF the CIS thinks or anybody else.believes that this is not a widespread practice in the AUS,then initiate audits of all programs starting with STU and clarify.

When the story is finally released I will have MUCH more to.say on this subject.

It must be interesting to note that NOT one A/D has made a definitive statement clearing their school of such violations.

Stay tuned!

RANTFATHER
In spite of AUS Fan's characterization of my motivation to start tbe AUDIT with STU it has EVERYTHING to do with the improper conduct of the previous coach with respect to the matter at hand and is my home school and the one that I am most concerned with.

AUS FAN seems to.be suggesting that an AUDIT would uncover nothing but admits to.hearing of such excesses but is suggesting that a blind eye should be turned to it.

I BELIEVE that there should be honesty practiced by all and that outing of one coach is both improper, unfair and just plain wrong........ AUS/CIS needs to get involved in shedding light on this matter.

RANTFATHER.

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01-11-2013, 12:05 PM
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Rantfather: there is also the dark side of the coin that we are more familiar seeing in the NCAA and that is the practice of benefits being supplied to players by alumni. Those payments, services in lieu, free cars, houses etc. are outside the universities control but none the less tilt the playing field. To think that similar practices don't happen in CIS is just naive, but it is necessary to have deterrents which penalize any school administration that uses creative bookkeeping to lure recruits.

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01-11-2013, 12:30 PM
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I'm sure every team has made some sort of 'side deal' with a player(s) in the past and today. I'm sure it happens in most of the high end competitive sports.

However, this is generally done at arms reach (supporter, booster club, local millionaire) - you don't provide funds over the allowed AFA to players from the team's operational budget which is manged through the comptroller - that's just asking to be caught.

I'm sure there are players getting free or reduced rent at a local apartment building owned by a supporter or perks at a local restaurant and as much as I don't like it - there is nothing saying a 3rd party has to follow any rules set forth by the CIS in spending his money. If someone wants to give a room away for free or buy an athlete dinner - that's not against the law.

Is this fair? Who said life was fair.

The moral issue (or dilemma) is - is the 3rd party really at arms length? Is the athlete promised these incentives in advance of coming? Is the program promising or offering these incentives in advance and on-behalf of the supporter? If that is true, then the 3rd party is de-facto representing the program and the program is in violation as they are party to the fraud.

So, audit all you want - a good program that knows the rules and maintains its distance from the supporters will have no money trail that ties them to the athlete other than the AFAs they offer. That's why audits are a waste of time in this case.

You'd only find 'evidence' if you were able to audit the players directly, but I don't believe the CIS has that authority to do that. Imagine if the top 3 scorers on each team in the CIS had to provide receipts from Sept to April on their living expenses? Such a probe would uncover a lot of issues, but then the problem gets pushed farther underground as cash is then provided to parents who then provide it to the athlete. Then you have to audit parents...

The problem is less prevalent in Canada because we have less money to spend on this, but I agree it does create an uneven playing field.

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01-11-2013, 01:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rantfather View Post
In spite of AUS Fan's characterization of my motivation to start tbe AUDIT with STU it has EVERYTHING to do with the improper conduct of the previous coach with respect to the matter at hand and is my home school and the one that I am most concerned with.
Would love to know what improper conduct you think could happen at STU during that time....

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01-11-2013, 02:00 PM
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This all looks like pure speculation. All we have is an unsourced story from CTV which references a possible payments issue.

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01-12-2013, 06:56 AM
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To be honest I know nothing about what Universities are allowed to give players or not, I think it must be much more than supplying apartments or rent free situations or a vehicle, cause if it is all teams are guilty everywhere, you dont see a whole lot of Hockey Recruits getting a key to a dorm room do you? When I ran a Business on the Northside I remember St Thomas Bought a newer Split entry house for a group of their Hockey players, and is that really wrong? their must have been bigger things involved at Dalhousie. I love the Universities announcement of we became aware of........You really think they didnt know?

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01-12-2013, 07:53 AM
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It is quite clear. Student-athletes can only be provided a maximum of tuition and required fees (such as student union, technology fees, etc.) as an Athletic Financial Award (AFA), the CIS version of a sports scholarship.

Teams or schools currently cannot pay for anything else. Not cars. Not apartments. Not houses. Not residence rooms. Not even meal plans (although of course the team can cover travel meals and food at the rink).

Now if a hockey player already has his tuition covered by a scholarship he earned while playing Major Junior, he can take his AFA money and buy textbooks or pay rent or car payments or whatever else he needs or wants to, but that individual AFA money is capped at the cost of his annual tuition plus required fees.

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01-12-2013, 12:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cishockeyfan View Post
To be honest I know nothing about what Universities are allowed to give players or not, I think it must be much more than supplying apartments or rent free situations or a vehicle, cause if it is all teams are guilty everywhere, you dont see a whole lot of Hockey Recruits getting a key to a dorm room do you? When I ran a Business on the Northside I remember St Thomas Bought a newer Split entry house for a group of their Hockey players, and is that really wrong? their must have been bigger things involved at Dalhousie. I love the Universities announcement of we became aware of........You really think they didnt know?
You are foolish. They bought Sands nothing, he secured a mortgage with the help of probably his parents and he rented rooms to team mates and it had an apartment in the basement which he also rented to team mates. The rent paid for the house but you are more than willing to throw out that accusation and just let it hang out there, aren't you….without even knowing one thing other than you worked at the gas station across the road and the guys talked to you once and a while out of pity. Next time I'm at the Petro-Can I'll let you wash my windows.

A former shaved head goalie of yours had UNB "buy" him a house too, and a former Squirrel that now plays with the SF Bulls another house buy, and a D-Man that is now in Europe, a car and a house. And I can verify it just like you can. Not to mention the free golf at Kingswood, which if it is offered as an incentive for a player to come to UNB, is 100% ILLEGAL!!! SO WHY DON'T YOU SHUT THE **** UP???

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01-12-2013, 01:34 PM
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STUTOMMIES: While I applaud you for defending former STU players and acknowledge that you probably do have "inside" information on goings-on in Freddy Beach, it doesn't help the conversation to tell someone to SHUT THE **** UP.

I'm sure that you and I can agree that there is some kind of inducement at every school that falls outside of what is legal. Some people on this Board would say that it doesn't happen at their school and that is their perogative.

I understand your anger at the "Squirrels", but for the sake of the rest of us, please dial back the rhetoric.

ps - I still like you....

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01-12-2013, 02:25 PM
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STUTOMMIES: While I applaud you for defending former STU players and acknowledge that you probably do have "inside" information on goings-on in Freddy Beach, it doesn't help the conversation to tell someone to SHUT THE **** UP.

I'm sure that you and I can agree that there is some kind of inducement at every school that falls outside of what is legal. Some people on this Board would say that it doesn't happen at their school and that is their perogative.

I understand your anger at the "Squirrels", but for the sake of the rest of us, please dial back the rhetoric.

ps - I still like you....
Like me, hate me, love me, I could care less. If a Squirrel wants to sling mud in my general direction "it" better be prepared for it to come back. If they want to act all innocent but cast dispersions on everyone else, too *** bad for them.

I'm all for turning the other cheek but not this time. I have no inside info. just a ignorant fan.

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01-12-2013, 03:11 PM
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Hypothetically Speaking

Let's say a certain University relieved it's Head Coach of his duties mid season and appointed the Assistant Coach. But, the Assistant Coach was not confirmed until the following summer. So, the old Head Coach remained in that position for the rest of the season. And, let's say that in October Billy ( a star player ) comes in to see the new Head Coach and asks: " When can I get my rent money and my meal card"? Billy is followed by Bobby and Frankie, both star players, and with similar requests.

Would the new Coach go to the administration and ask what is going on?

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01-12-2013, 03:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood3 View Post
This all looks like pure speculation. All we have is an unsourced story from CTV which references a possible payments issue.
It's a bit more than that, Holly. "Rumors" have been flying around for a couple of years now about stuff that some schools do. I'm sure other places hear similar "rumors" about different schools than I do. I think when (if) it gets in the open, you will see that these comments here are not too far off the mark.

In the meantime, all we can do is speculate as we are prone to do.....

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01-12-2013, 05:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by STUTOMMIES View Post
You are foolish. They bought Sands nothing, he secured a mortgage with the help of probably his parents and he rented rooms to team mates and it had an apartment in the basement which he also rented to team mates. The rent paid for the house but you are more than willing to throw out that accusation and just let it hang out there, aren't you….without even knowing one thing other than you worked at the gas station across the road and the guys talked to you once and a while out of pity. Next time I'm at the Petro-Can I'll let you wash my windows.

A former shaved head goalie of yours had UNB "buy" him a house too, and a former Squirrel that now plays with the SF Bulls another house buy, and a D-Man that is now in Europe, a car and a house. And I can verify it just like you can. Not to mention the free golf at Kingswood, which if it is offered as an incentive for a player to come to UNB, is 100% ILLEGAL!!! SO WHY DON'T YOU SHUT THE **** UP???
Who mentioned anything about "Sands"?

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01-21-2013, 03:27 PM
  #25
Island Husky
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FreddtFoyle View Post
In other words the new Dal rink is a moving target and we shouldn't hold our breath ...
Now this, the other day, http://thechronicleherald.ca/metro/4...175m-shortfall, I think, adds credence to AUS Fan's point about the program futures.

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