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Old
03-21-2013, 10:04 PM
  #101
Novacane
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The only way his contract is worth it is if we sign Marc in 2015 (which I'm pretty doubtful about if the Canes can't pull it together over the next few seasons).

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03-21-2013, 10:04 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Chicago Made Punk View Post
If I could go back and undo the trade... I probably would. Staal's good, but I see a future Ryan Kesler in Brandon Sutter. And frankly I'm kind of pissed we were willing to move him at this stage of his career.
You mean the same stage of his career that Jordan is at? since they are both 24.

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03-21-2013, 10:05 PM
  #103
Stephen Goalbert
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Brandon was pissed too!
He was. It really was sad watching those interviews from him the days following the trade.

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03-21-2013, 10:08 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Boom Boom Anton View Post
You mean the same stage of his career that Jordan is at? since they are both 24.
They were drafted a year apart, so in years of development Sutter's a year behind. Sutter is also still growing into his frame and will only become better as he gains more muscle and becomes able to combine his speed and agility with strength on the puck.

With Staal I worry that what we're seeing is what we're going to get. I just don't see where he's a better player than Sutter outside of his strength on the puck. It certainly isn't in skating, shooting, or defense.

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03-21-2013, 10:11 PM
  #105
Finlandia WOAT
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Brandon Sutter Shooting %: 15.2.

Jordan Staal Shooting %: 9.2.

I love Brandon Sutter, but to say that Sutter is better than Staal at this point is debatable. To say that we lost the trade is silly.

I agree with below, Jordan is much better than Sutter, Sutter's hot streak aside.

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03-21-2013, 10:12 PM
  #106
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I'm a huge Sutter fan, but I'd honestly still take Jordan any day of the week.

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03-21-2013, 10:15 PM
  #107
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To me, it's not Jordan vs. Brandon. It's Jordan's contract vs. Brandon's contract and there's one I have a major problem with. I'd give the nod to Jordan in terms of ability but that difference in ability is not worth $4 million. Jordan still has time to round out his offense but if he can't learn to shoot the puck then things won't progress that much for him.

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03-21-2013, 10:17 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Novacane View Post
To me, it's not Jordan vs. Brandon. It's Jordan's contract vs. Brandon's contract and there's one I have a major problem with. I'd give the nod to Jordan in terms of ability but that difference in ability is not worth $4 million. Jordan still has time to round out his offense but if he can't learn to shoot the puck then things won't progress that much for him.
This. There's also the issue that we gave up Dumoulin. A guy like Brian Dumoulin would be pretty nice to have right about now with all the injuries to our blue line.

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03-21-2013, 10:19 PM
  #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Novacane View Post
To me, it's not Jordan vs. Brandon. It's Jordan's contract vs. Brandon's contract and there's one I have a major problem with. I'd give the nod to Jordan in terms of ability but that difference in ability is not worth $4 million. Jordan still has time to round out his offense but if he can't learn to shoot the puck then things won't progress that much for him.
Jordan's contract is a UFA contract.

Sutter is on an RFA contract.

Allow me to be the first to tell you, Brandon Sutter won't get a 2 million a year contract in Free Agency.

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03-21-2013, 10:20 PM
  #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicago Made Punk View Post
They were drafted a year apart, so in years of development Sutter's a year behind. Sutter is also still growing into his frame and will only become better as he gains more muscle and becomes able to combine his speed and agility with strength on the puck.

With Staal I worry that what we're seeing is what we're going to get. I just don't see where he's a better player than Sutter outside of his strength on the puck. It certainly isn't in skating, shooting, or defense.
Sutter was my favorite Cane and I hated that they had to give him up. I'd still take Jordan over him without hesitation. The team sucks right now, Jordan has had a hodgepodge of linemates and yet to develop chemistry with them, and is still on pace for ~55 points over an 82 game schedule. My expectation for Jordan is that he could be a strong, capable 2C averaging 60 points a season.

Did you expect more? Do you see Sutter achieving that?

My answer is no to both those questions.

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03-21-2013, 10:20 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Highway to Cap Hell View Post
Jordan's contract is a UFA contract.

Sutter is on an RFA contract.

Allow me to be the first to tell you, Brandon Sutter won't get a 2 million a year contract in Free Agency.
Trust me. I'm fully aware.

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03-21-2013, 10:23 PM
  #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boom Boom Anton View Post
Sutter was my favorite Cane and I hated that they had to give him up. I'd still take Jordan over him without hesitation. The team sucks right now, Jordan has had a hodgepodge of linemates and yet to develop chemistry with them, and is still on pace for ~55 points over an 82 game schedule. My expectation for Jordan is that he could be a strong, capable 2C averaging 60 points a season.

Did you expect more? Do you see Sutter achieving that?

My answer is no to both those questions.
No, I didn't expect more. And yes, I do see Sutter achieving that. Maybe he never will in Pittsburgh behind Sid and Geno, but I 100% believe that he would have developed into that kind of player here.

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03-21-2013, 10:24 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Chicago Made Punk View Post
This. There's also the issue that we gave up Dumoulin. A guy like Brian Dumoulin would be pretty nice to have right about now with all the injuries to our blue line.
That's fine. If you want to say we gave up too much by including Dumoulin, then I won't argue with that..as I actually agree with it. But that's not the point you were making previously.

The Canes haven't had a legit 2C since Brindy faded. Now that they actually have one, we are lamenting the loss of a 3C. In a perfect world, I would have loved to keep both J. Staal and B. Sutter.

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03-21-2013, 10:26 PM
  #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boom Boom Anton View Post
That's fine. If you want to say we gave up too much by including Dumoulin, then I won't argue with that..as I actually agree with it. But that's not the point you were making previously.

The Canes haven't had a legit 2C since Brindy faded. Now that they actually have one, we are lamenting the loss of a 3C. In a perfect world, I would have loved to keep both J. Staal and B. Sutter.
Offer sheet Sutter and make everybody (except Ray Shero) happy.

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03-21-2013, 10:30 PM
  #115
Stephen Goalbert
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boom Boom Anton View Post
That's fine. If you want to say we gave up too much by including Dumoulin, then I won't argue with that..as I actually agree with it. But that's not the point you were making previously.

The Canes haven't had a legit 2C since Brindy faded. Now that they actually have one, we are lamenting the loss of a 3C. In a perfect world, I would have loved to keep both J. Staal and B. Sutter.
The two aren't mutually exclusive.

In my opinion, the immense benefit to our prospect pool of keeping Dumoulin and whoever we would have drafted with 8th overall outweighs whatever potential negative affect putting Sutter back in our lineup for Jordan does.

Is Jordan better than Sutter right now? Probably. I think it's pretty obvious that Sutter has more upside though, but I'd much rather the very slight downgrade from Staal to Sutter along with having Dumoulin and say, Filip Forsberg in our prospect pool than have what we do right now.

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03-21-2013, 10:31 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by Chicago Made Punk View Post
No, I didn't expect more. And yes, I do see Sutter achieving that. Maybe he never will in Pittsburgh behind Sid and Geno, but I 100% believe that he would have developed into that kind of player here.
Ok, no sense arguing. I know how much you love Sutter.

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03-21-2013, 10:33 PM
  #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boom Boom Anton View Post
Ok, no sense arguing. I know how much you love Sutter.
I have no idea what you're talking about

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicago Made Punk View Post
I think it's pretty obvious that Sutter has more upside though

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03-21-2013, 10:37 PM
  #118
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NVM...not worth it...................


Last edited by Boom Boom Aho: 03-21-2013 at 10:43 PM.
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03-21-2013, 10:47 PM
  #119
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I'm not sure what we would give up, but does anyone think trying to grab Tyler Kennedy would be good for Jordan? I always remember them on a line together in pittsburgh.

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03-21-2013, 10:56 PM
  #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MovesLikeJagr View Post
I'm not sure what we would give up, but does anyone think trying to grab Tyler Kennedy would be good for Jordan? I always remember them on a line together in pittsburgh.
Yes I believe having one of his side kicks back would be good for Jordan.

TK hasn't been the same player since Jordan left. Jordan made him and Cooke better players. TK has zero chemistry with Sutter. The 3rd line as a whole in Pittsburgh has zero chemistry.

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03-21-2013, 10:58 PM
  #121
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I'm totally cool with you guys actually discussing this if this is what you got out of the game tonight, but this isn't just because of the goal, right? It seems to be odd timing, I don't feel like Staal had any worse a game than any other game, I thought he was fine, but if this was just the final straw I understand. But don't start talking about how useless he is because of the Brodeur goal, that wasn't even a little bit his fault.

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03-21-2013, 11:01 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by Anton Dubinchuk View Post
I'm totally cool with you guys actually discussing this if this is what you got out of the game tonight, but this isn't just because of the goal, right? It seems to be odd timing, I don't feel like Staal had any worse a game than any other game, I thought he was fine, but if this was just the final straw I understand. But don't start talking about how useless he is because of the Brodeur goal, that wasn't even a little bit his fault.
No. It's not for me. He's been pretty invisible the last ~8 games. But I understand why you think it's a little fishy this has popped up.

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03-21-2013, 11:03 PM
  #123
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Just remember, you asked for stats...

Last year team +/- per 60 minutes with Sutter/Staal off/on ice:
Sutter off: -.47
Sutter on: -.31
Staal off: +.75
Staal on: +.26

(Note: With Staal off the ice, the Penguins both scored more goals AND gave up fewer goals. With Sutter off the ice the Canes scored more goals, but also gave up more goals.)

Staal also started 47.8% of his shifts in the offensive zone, while Sutter only started 34.7% of his.

All this despite the fact that Sutter did this against tougher competition (.829 Corsi QC compared to Jordan's .264, .073 +/- QC compared to Jordan's .061) while playing with worse teammates (.034 +/- QT compared to Jordan's .088, -4.909 Corsi QT compared to Jordan's 10.915)

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03-21-2013, 11:39 PM
  #124
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By almost any statistical comparison (including salary) Sutter is superior to Staal. Staal played very sheltered minutes offensively in Pitt, and did not play against hardly any top 4 d-men.

In order to increase his offensive output in 2012, he completely abandoned his defensive game that gained him so much notoriety early in his career, and was a - player.

Staal can be a great defensive center, but he lacks the playmaking ability and offensive skillset to be a legit #2C, and that's probably not changing. He is unwilling to focus on defense at this stage of his career, and his contract is not in line with this duty anyways.

When Pitt traded him for Sutter and the extras, I thought it was an incredible steal for the Pens. I believe that more strongly now. Staal was way overrated.

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03-21-2013, 11:45 PM
  #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by staalaholic11 View Post
Yes I believe having one of his side kicks back would be good for Jordan.

TK hasn't been the same player since Jordan left. Jordan made him and Cooke better players. TK has zero chemistry with Sutter. The 3rd line as a whole in Pittsburgh has zero chemistry.
Cooke and Sutter have been good but yeah, I don't think Kennedy fits on our 3rd line anymore.

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