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Old
03-22-2013, 12:22 PM
  #176
Joe McGrath
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AJJ and LK going head to head? Get your popcorn ready folks.

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03-22-2013, 12:27 PM
  #177
tarheelhockey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicago Made Punk View Post
You're trying to use GA60 against me by using outliers and those who play against the weakest competition. I guess strawman arguments are legitimate statistical analysis now.
And you're flexing advanced stats in your favor by cherry-picking the ones that support your point.

If you're serious about making a fully-rounded study of Sutter vs. Staal in their roles on the Pens, you could just as easily include:

- Save percentage of .942 (Sutter '13) vs .896 (Staal '12)
- PDO of 1033 (Sutter '13) vs. 984 (Staal '12)
- Defensive faceoff wins at 50.4% (Sutter '13) vs 56.7% (Staal '12)
- G/60 of 0.79 (Sutter '13) vs 0.99 (Staal '12)
- P/60 of 1.42 (Sutter '13) vs 2.30 (Staal '12)

If someone wants to put together a complete quantitative analysis of these players, I'm all ears. But this stuff about sitting around picking one advanced stat as a catch-all is ridiculous, and I'm sure you know that if you're familiar enough with the material to use it the way you're trying to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amaxing Joni Jokel View Post
Odd that this whole debate comes during a losing streak where we've scored 6 goals total, as if they great Brandon Sutter would have any effect on that. I'm sure you could find many 5, 10, 15 game streaks of utterly terrible offensive play from Sutter, but nobody gave a **** because skated fast and the usual scapegoats were being blamed.
That's an interesting topic.

Pointless streaks this season
Staal - 3, 4
Sutter - 2, 2, 2, 4, 4, 6

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Old
03-22-2013, 12:30 PM
  #178
garnetpalmetto
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Originally Posted by Joe McGrath View Post
AJJ and LK going head to head? Get your popcorn ready folks.

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Old
03-22-2013, 12:36 PM
  #179
Joe McGrath
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Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
And you're flexing advanced stats in your favor by cherry-picking the ones that support your point.

If you're serious about making a fully-rounded study of Sutter vs. Staal in their roles on the Pens, you could just as easily include:

- Save percentage of .942 (Sutter '13) vs .896 (Staal '12)
- PDO of 1033 (Sutter '13) vs. 984 (Staal '12)
- Defensive faceoff wins at 50.4% (Sutter '13) vs 56.7% (Staal '12)
- G/60 of 0.79 (Sutter '13) vs 0.99 (Staal '12)
- P/60 of 1.42 (Sutter '13) vs 2.30 (Staal '12)

If someone wants to put together a complete quantitative analysis of these players, I'm all ears. But this stuff about sitting around picking one advanced stat as a catch-all is ridiculous, and I'm sure you know that if you're familiar enough with the material to use it the way you're trying to.



That's an interesting topic.

Pointless streaks this season
Staal - 3, 4
Sutter - 2, 2, 2, 4, 4, 6
General commentary about SV% while a player is on the ice. Isn't that an incomplete analysis if you don't account for scoring chances. Save % goes up if you are forcing teams to take many long distance or otherwise crappy shots, like the Bruins of the Chara era.

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Old
03-22-2013, 12:49 PM
  #180
tarheelhockey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe McGrath View Post
General commentary about SV% while a player is on the ice. Isn't that an incomplete analysis if you don't account for scoring chances. Save % goes up if you are forcing teams to take many long distance or otherwise crappy shots, like the Bruins of the Chara era.
Absolutely. Any given number cited in this thread is capable of giving the wrong impression. They have to be taken into context, for example with save% you would want to know not only scoring chances, but you'd need to weight them for situational factors like defending leads and zone starts/finishes.

Or, you would want to know that the Pens replaced Johnson/Thiessen's .877 with Vokoun's .903.

Generally speaking, advanced stats tell us just enough to be dangerous.

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Old
03-22-2013, 04:31 PM
  #181
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe McGrath View Post
AJJ and LK going head to head? Get your popcorn ready folks.
I use the mobile version of the site, and thus can't figure out who LK used to be...

At one point I thought it was another account for AJJ....he wouldn't argue against himself would he? Lol....

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Old
03-22-2013, 07:02 PM
  #182
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sens1Canes2 View Post
I use the mobile version of the site, and thus can't figure out who LK used to be...

At one point I thought it was another account for AJJ....he wouldn't argue against himself would he? Lol....
LK use to be both Meleeray and bluecowman (he of "skinner is jealous of Staal and the NHL needs 2 more teams in Mexico).


Last edited by DaveG: 03-22-2013 at 07:26 PM. Reason: speculation
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Old
03-22-2013, 08:45 PM
  #183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amaxing Joni Jokel View Post
It's hard to judge him. He has a useless piece of garbage named Jeff Skinner on his line who does nothing except turn the puck over 400 times a game.
I really don't think much of you anymore.

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Old
03-22-2013, 09:06 PM
  #184
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Originally Posted by Boom Boom Anton View Post
LK use to be both Meleeray and bluecowman (he of "skinner is jealous of Staal and the NHL needs 2 more teams in Mexico).
Oh ok. Lol no wonder none of his posts make any sense.

I feel like I owe AJJ an apology...

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Old
03-22-2013, 09:17 PM
  #185
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blueline Bomber View Post
And this is ignoring the fact that Pittsburgh still had the opportunity to resign Jordan. It was the length of their original offer that was the problem, not anything about him not wanting to play in Pittsburgh. Had they offered him a 2-3 deal, he likely would have taken it.

JR overpaid, yes, but out of necessity.
It wasn't actually quite as clear cut as that vis-a-vis a contract extension with Pittsburgh.

http://triblive.com/sports/penguins/...#axzz2O9VwvAj6

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Last June 21, the day before his wedding, he had every intention of signing a contract extension that could have kept him with the Penguins for the next 11 seasons.

It was all there: guaranteed money (about $57 million total), long-term security (a 10-year term), an understanding that his role would continue to expand beyond that of a traditional No. 3 center.

Only one person could have kept Staal from making that commitment to the franchise that made him the second overall pick in 2006.

That person was his oldest brother and best friend, Eric, who plainly offered that if Jordan Staal accepted this offer there was no chance they could ever play together.


"It was never a slam-dunk (decision). Until that last day, I thought I was definitely going to stay."
And then:

Quote:
I really just wanted to play out my contract in Pittsburgh and see what was going to happen
This is really what set things into action. Playing out his contract would make him an unrestricted free agent, and we didn't want to run the risk of losing him for nothing, knowing he had some form of desire to play with his brother. So Shero had little choice but to strike while the iron was hot and shop him.


Last edited by clefty: 03-22-2013 at 09:22 PM.
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Old
03-23-2013, 02:39 PM
  #186
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Pens fan here. The Canes being on national tv made me look up how he's been doing. I see he's a -6 so far this year. I know his last several months in Pittsburgh he stopped being responsible defensively(same as the rest of the team). I'm wondering how his penalty killing and backchecking is going for the Canes.

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03-23-2013, 02:59 PM
  #187
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We've had several long-ish stretches this year where nobody can score. Hard to get a plus when you're getting shut out or scoring one random fluky goal. He also spends a lot of time playing with Jeff Skinner who can be one of the more selfish players I've ever seen, and since we've not really had a good checking line he draws a lot of the top lines from the other team.

Those sound like excuses, I'm sure. Basically, the answer is that this whole team is really awful right now and everybody's numbers are going to suffer because of it.

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03-23-2013, 06:31 PM
  #188
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I watched J. Staal in Pittsburgh and feel that how he was played there matches his skillset. He excells at that third line checking role where offensive contribution is a bonus. A team like the Hurricanes that don't have depth, playing him as a second line C can expect to be disappointed. To me, there is no doubt that the move to obtain him was a move to satisfy Eric rather that one to improve the team unless he was to be used where he can perform best. Forcing him into a position that he can't live up to is bound to disappoint. I understand that there are/were many dynamics at play however, given the roster, there is really no other place to utilize him on this team. Just don't expect more than what he is naturally capable of. This Eric Staal/Staal infactuation is an unhealthy dynamic that I think has/is and will continue to negatively affect the team on the board. Business/marketing wise, perhaps a different story. For me, understanding the pouty appearing, slack play of Eric Staal is still being studied. We can discuss his point production etc., but there seems to be something up his backside. I guess if we understand that this is a business first and marketing the Staals as the franchise, things become clearer. I have not been all that impressed by Eric Staal thus far in many ways. As a fan, I personally don't like him.
Edit: not liking Eric Staal is based upon a personal dislike of his style as apposed to his overall production over time. Same goes for J. Staal.


Last edited by rocky7: 03-24-2013 at 08:02 AM.
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Old
03-23-2013, 07:19 PM
  #189
tarheelhockey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KHstrike View Post
Pens fan here. The Canes being on national tv made me look up how he's been doing. I see he's a -6 so far this year. I know his last several months in Pittsburgh he stopped being responsible defensively(same as the rest of the team). I'm wondering how his penalty killing and backchecking is going for the Canes.
Tough to separate his performance from the situations he's been thrown into.

Like the rest of the team, he's been up and down. Certainly at the beginning of the year he came as advertised, excellent defensively and a bull on the puck. As the team lost steam due to injuries and cold streaks, his offensive game faded. I still think he's been fine defensively -- our PK leader, one of our better forecheckers, a solid faceoff guy and the recipient of a lot of tough minutes.

While I'd like to see more from him offensively (especially in terms of SOG), his offensive performance has to be take into context of being handcuffed to an ice-cold Skinner, who has been a bit of a black hole lately. Meaning, Jordan often passes to Skinner and the play never comes back to him. The other wing has been a rotation of guys who belong in the bottom-6, though that could change with Ruutu coming back. Bottom line, it's a lineup/chemistry problem rather than necessarily a Jordan Staal problem -- he's been quiet, but not "bad" per se.

As usual, I wouldn't take +/- to mean much of anything at all.

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Old
03-23-2013, 07:23 PM
  #190
KHstrike
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The only knowledge I have of Eric this year is just looking at his stats, which are solid at face value, and the butt kicking he gave the Pens earlier this year.

With Jordan though... One of the reasons he excelled is because he was with the same line for so long. Tyler Kennedy, Matt Cooke and Jordan were a combo for most of Jordan's career. When injuries or suspensions would break that, Jordan did not seem to be nearly as effective. Maybe he just needs time to mesh with his line?

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04-20-2013, 09:13 PM
  #191
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How has he looked this year, hows his skating?

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