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The Business of Hockey Discuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Topics may include the CBA, work stoppages, broadcast contracts, franchise sales, NHL revenues, relocation and expansion.

Hamilton III: There's A New Sheriff In Town

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Old
06-27-2013, 07:45 PM
  #276
JMROWE
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All this territory nonsense all began with Harold Ballard when he wanted the city of Hamilton to completely fund a new stadium on the mountain in exchange for giving up the NHL. territory rights but the city said no so along with some help of Sabres owner seymore knox black balled the city of Hamilton from ever getting an NHL. team & why the continue to do it till this very day makes me sick to my stomach .

I will continue to boycott the NHL. until Hamilton gets an NHL. team & only then I will end my boycott & here are the reasons why I am boycotting the NHL.

1. In 1992 I went to visit family in California & my Uncle got me & my dad 2 tickets to see the LA. Kings & Vancouver Canucks & keep in mind Gretzky was still in his prime & day of the game the NHL. players went on strike pretty hart breaking for a 12 year old kid to end his vacation .

2. 2004\2005 Lockout

3. The Coyotes \ Balsille Fiasco

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06-27-2013, 10:38 PM
  #277
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Quote:
Originally Posted by berklon View Post
Someone wake me up when there's a tiny spec of evidence that someone's trying to bring a team to Hamilton.

As much as I'd love to have a team here, there's no point getting your hopes up after all the let downs in the past... even less point now since there's no attempt being made.
In full agreement.. It ain't happening, ships sailed.

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06-28-2013, 07:33 PM
  #278
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I could see Hamilton as a potential expansion candidate. A lot can change within a year.

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07-01-2013, 01:05 PM
  #279
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I recently read 67' and Hockey Night In Canada; 60 years - the 1967 expansion was explained as a money grab pure and simple, moving into non-hockey markets with a large TV/Radio audience and attempting to force the game upon them to the result of a watered down league. The further expansion only continued the trend, it had absolutely zero to do with bringing the sport to places to expand the game for it's benefit and all to do with greed, Lester B. Pearson called it something like a national crime to have our game taken hostage and to have so few Canadian teams. And all these years later we have 7 vs 23 to the south, most of the 23 of which are financially failing.

I think my point is that if Atlanta can have not one, but two expansion teams then Hamilton (which had an NHL team in the 20's that was the Quebec Aces and turned into the NY Americans) should be right up there in re-location plans by the league. They underestimate our devotion to the game and our ability to support a team. If they fear a Hamilton team will mean the end to Buffalo then oh well, the strongest survives.

Over time the game has been taken from us, bastardized, and then force-fed to markets who have no interest in it anyway. Florida get's 2 team, California gets 2 (with the LA kings in their cup year averaging 15th in attendance with a population of something like 17 -million/ while Ottawa with a pop of 1-million was top 5 in average attendance) The NY area has 5 teams. Yet apparently Hamilton is too close to Buffalo and not a viable market to Bettman? ***** that

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07-01-2013, 01:09 PM
  #280
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might want to check some of that math

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Old
07-01-2013, 01:32 PM
  #281
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brodie View Post
might want to check some of that math
You're right about LA's pop - 3.8M, but my point remains

LA population 3.8M average attendance 17.9k NHL rank 15th
Ott Population 883K average attendance 19.3K NHL rank 6th

And unsurprisingly that same year MLT 2nd, Tor 5th, Ott 6th, Clg 7th, Van 8th, Edm 19th and Wpg 25h...which is due to their small arena which they sold out nightly. Hamilton would be right up there too,

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07-01-2013, 01:36 PM
  #282
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cotton View Post
You're right about LA's pop - 3.8M, but my point remains

LA population 3.8M average attendance 17.9k NHL rank 15th
Ott Population 883K average attendance 19.3K NHL rank 6th

And unsurprisingly that same year MLT 2nd, Tor 5th, Ott 6th, Clg 7th, Van 8th, Edm 19th and Wpg 25h...which is due to their small arena which they sold out nightly. Hamilton would be right up there too,
Staples Center seats about 1k less than Ottawa's Arena. Actually most of the Canadian Arenas, if I recall off-hand, are much bigger than many US Arenas, with the obvious exception of Winnipeg.

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07-01-2013, 01:56 PM
  #283
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Originally Posted by Beauner View Post
Staples Center seats about 1k less than Ottawa's Arena. Actually most of the Canadian Arenas, if I recall off-hand, are much bigger than many US Arenas, with the obvious exception of Winnipeg.
Most could seat 30k and they'd fill up, has nothing to do with the size, its the fan-support.

The numbers are Montreal is 1st, Calgary is 6th, Ottawa is 7th, Vancouver is 10th, Toronto is 11th, Edmonton is 27th and Winnipeg is 30th in League wide in capacity

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07-01-2013, 02:13 PM
  #284
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I forgot to mention this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cotton View Post
If they fear a Hamilton team will mean the end to Buffalo then oh well, the strongest survives.
Yeah.....you can't just do this. Buffalo isn't really a franchise in distress either. So if there's a reasonable chance that a Hamilton team will upset their support, then you can't just put them there anyway and just be like "Ahh **** it who cares". Why (potentially) take a stable franchise away just so some other city (that's already close to another franchise) can have one?

This will never happen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cotton View Post
Most could seat 30k and they'd fill up, has nothing to do with the size, its the fan-support.

The numbers are Montreal is 1st, Calgary is 6th, Ottawa is 7th, Vancouver is 10th, Toronto is 11th, Edmonton is 27th and Winnipeg is 30th in League wide in capacity
Forgot Edmonton's arena was that small. There new one will probably be in the upper half in terms of capacity though.

Regardless, you make it seem like most US teams have no support and are failing financially. This just isn't the case. Only a few (Phoenix and NJ most notably) are having financial problems. Other than that US teams have been doing fairly well for themselves. Besides perennial losers like Florida, NYI and Columbus.

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07-01-2013, 02:30 PM
  #285
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beauner View Post
I forgot to mention this:


Yeah.....you can't just do this. Buffalo isn't really a franchise in distress either. So if there's a reasonable chance that a Hamilton team will upset their support, then you can't just put them there anyway and just be like "Ahh **** it who cares". Why (potentially) take a stable franchise away just so some other city (that's already close to another franchise) can have one?

This will never happen.



Forgot Edmonton's arena was that small. There new one will probably be in the upper half in terms of capacity though.

Regardless, you make it seem like most US teams have no support and are failing financially. This just isn't the case. Only a few (Phoenix and NJ most notably) are having financial problems. Other than that US teams have been doing fairly well for themselves. Besides perennial losers like Florida, NYI and Columbus.

There is a paper on the new economics of the NHL that state's the following; that Canada has so few NHL teams because of the monopoly structure of the league, not due a lack of local demand or economic viability.

-That Southern Ontario can support two more teams – one new team in the Greater Toronto Area and another in Hamilton, London or Kitchener-Waterloo.

-That Vancouver and Montreal can each support a second team.

-That Quebec City could also be successful homes to NHL franchises.

The paper estimates that a team located in Canada can expect to take in roughly $23 million per year in extra gate revenue, relative to an American market of the same size. A major increase in the supply of NHL hockey to Americans has not led to a commensurate jump in demand.

It states that Hockey is still not a closely followed sport in much of the US. Many US teams are struggling financially, despite being heavily subsidized by local taxpayers and Canadian fans. There are also questions about whether Canadian tax dollars are being used to subsidize unprofitable American teams through the NHL’s television contracts.

According to the paper the league clearly has no interest in having supply meet demand, but rather benefits from ensuring that supply always remains somewhat below demand. That the market did not decide that Canada should only have seven teams, or that Southern Ontario should only have one...the NHL did.

Other interesting facts; Canada has only one-fifth of NHL teams, but generates nearly one-third of the league’s revenues. During the first rounds of last year’s NHL playoffs, Canadians were 40 times as likely as Americans to have watched hockey. Quebecers were as much as 90 times as likely. Most of the approximately $100 million a year that the CBC pays for Canadian TV broadcast rights ends up in the pockets of US teams. The same goes for the rights fees paid by TSN and RDS. The Edmonton Oilers, despite playing in one of the smallest markets in the NHL, and the third-smallest arena, generate more ticket revenue than 21 out of 24 American teams. The Phoenix Coyotes earned more money in transfers from Canada than from local ticket sales.

As for Buffalo, they too are amongst the struggling teams who are deathly afraid of a Hamilton market, because theirs is so brittle. Does the US have strong hockey markets? for sure. But Canada is being denied unjustifiably.

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07-01-2013, 02:45 PM
  #286
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Canada, for certain, can support more teams. I'm not arguing that. It is their national sport after all. I was just saying that the US teams aren't struggling as much as you made it seem. Some definitely are, but others like Boston, Chicago, Pittsburgh, Philadelphia- heck even San Jose and Carolina- have sustained good support over the past decade/half decade.

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07-01-2013, 02:54 PM
  #287
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beauner View Post
Canada, for certain, can support more teams. I'm not arguing that. It is their national sport after all. I was just saying that the US teams aren't struggling as much as you made it seem. Some definitely are, but others like Boston, Chicago, Pittsburgh, Philadelphia- heck even San Jose and Carolina- have sustained good support over the past decade/half decade.
"Six of the seven Canadian teams are above the 700,000-fan threshold (and therefore made money). So did Winnipeg, with roughly 560,000 fans. In total, Canadian teams brought in $219 million in operating profits in 2011-12 — whereas the American teams made a net of just $31 million. (Outside of the highly profitable Rangers, in fact, the United States-based teams lost money that year.)"

an article from the NY Times about why Canada hasn't won a cup since 93'. but it's actually a good article on the differences between Canadian and American markets using the numbers to explain. Good read, and yes...US teams, most, are struggling.

The article
http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes...nley-cup/?_r=0

But of course Boston, Detroit, Ny Ranger, Chicago (only recently though), Pittsburgh, Philly aren't stuggling; They are hockey markets. Carolina and San Jose? Yeah they are.

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07-01-2013, 02:56 PM
  #288
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I think my base argument is solid, and most would have a hard time even trying to argue that the NHL wouldn't work in Hamilton Ontario.

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07-01-2013, 03:11 PM
  #289
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cotton View Post
I think my base argument is solid, and most would have a hard time even trying to argue that the NHL wouldn't work in Hamilton Ontario.
And I'd agree with you, as I think would most people.

But there's a difference between arguing whether or not Hamilton could support a team, which I think they could quite easily, versus whether or not they'll even be given a shot to support a team, which is the point I always make.

For whatever reason, the NHL has expressed essentially zero interest since Copps was built in expanding or relocating into Hamilton, and I'm not seeing that change.

And note that this is coming from someone that 100% believes that Hamilton and Markham could both get NHL teams tomorrow and there'd still be room for at least one more NHL team in Southern Ontario, whether that be in Toronto, the GTA, London, or elsewhere.

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07-01-2013, 03:17 PM
  #290
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I think my base argument is solid, and most would have a hard time even trying to argue that the NHL wouldn't work in Hamilton Ontario.
Don't think many would argue against the thought that Hamilton will work. Sadly, I don't think Hamilton will ever get a team. The NHL will continue to think they can sell the game in the US as a major sport like they have for 40+ years - and they'll continue to fail. In the meantime this gate-driven league will continue to have about one-third of it's franchises doing anything substantial, while the others will be constantly on the bubble at best.

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07-01-2013, 04:12 PM
  #291
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No, your interpretation is illogical and flat out wrong.

Exclusive rights = single party.

The rule is clearly written from the perspective of the existing club and pertains to their "exclusive rights within a 50 mile radius".

The rule is corporate city limits of the existing franchise to the relocating team's arena and nothing more.

Even if it was "corporate limits" to "corporate limits" like you believe that would be totally irrelevant in this case because a relocating team in Hamilton would actually need to object to having Buffalo in it's home territory to make that valid.
No, you're wrong. A team cannot infringe on another markets 50 mile exclusive radii without paying territorial fees. It doesn't matter at all that the arena to arena is longer than 50 miles, or that you jumble a few sentences together that neither make sense or form an argument. If Hamilton gets a team, they have to pay the Leafs and Sabres territorial fees for having their 50 mile radius overlap with other teams. It's as simple as that, and if there is a loophole you certainly haven't found it.

It's the largest obstacle to getting a team in Hamilton, beyond the arena that needs well over $100,000,000 to upgrade and other problems. It's the reason I can't see Hamilton getting an NHL team in the foreseeable future. A larger market (Toronto) or an unused market (Kitchener or London) should be ahead of Hamilton. Doesn't mean they wouldn't be a valuable franchise, but there are far too many forces at work preventing it and trying desperately hard to neutralize these forces is a waste of time. It is what it is.

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07-01-2013, 06:33 PM
  #292
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I agree, Copps needs to be upgraded or something better built, and on the outskirts of the city because of that radius factor. Ballsillie was supposed to be fine with paying the Leafs and Buffalo, he just went about getting Phoenix like...well, like a Buffalo.

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07-01-2013, 06:49 PM
  #293
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And that's a major issue. The city isn't going to pay to renovate/build a new arena, because for the purpose it serves now it's not needed, and a prospective owner won't want to shell out that kind of money without public funding. In another market the government will provide money.

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07-02-2013, 12:07 AM
  #294
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And that's a major issue. The city isn't going to pay to renovate/build a new arena, because for the purpose it serves now it's not needed, and a prospective owner won't want to shell out that kind of money without public funding. In another market the government will provide money.
I don't think that's true. Without the promise of an NHL team, the city certainly won't renovate, that part you're right. However if a team were to move to Copps, the city would want a long term lease, while the owner will want a promise of renovations under threat of relocation.

To put this in perspective, the amount of money Hamilton would put into Copps (lets use the top end estimate of $200m) it's still less than what the proposal in Markham required the town to put into that project...

Of course I'm of the theory that a credible proposal is presented for an new arena near the Toronto would actual improve Hamilton's chances since MLSE could use a new team Copps to short circuit that arena and a new owner could leverage it against the city for renovation dough. If there is no credible proposal, than there is no urgency to move a team to Hamilton...

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07-02-2013, 08:44 AM
  #295
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As for Buffalo, they too are amongst the struggling teams who are deathly afraid of a Hamilton market, because theirs is so brittle.
Buffalo's STHs are 85% Americans, with a waiting list of 3,000 or so, and coupled with a ST renewal rate of about 99% it would take you about 37 years to get a ST if you were at the bottom of that list.

Buffalo is strong.

http://www.thespec.com/sports-story/...er-in-buffalo/

Quote:
The Sabres announced Monday that it took them one day to sell more than 31,000 of the remaining 80,000 tickets they had available for their 24 home games.
Quote:
And then there was the traffic-jam forming Monday evening in front of the Sabres arena, the First Niagara Center. That’s where fans were preparing to attend Sabres practice, which the team opened to the public. By the time the puck dropped, nearly all of the lower bowl of the arena was filled with fans.
Quote:
The ticket-sale total was the second-highest for a single day in team history. It trailed only the number of tickets sold for the 2008 Winter Classic, when Buffalo hosted Pittsburgh at Ralph Wilson Stadium on Jan. 1.

And the tickets the team put on sale Sunday were made available only to current season-ticket and mini-pack ticket holders. Individual game tickets will go on sale to the general public on Tuesday, leading to the expectation that the Sabres will sellout much if not all of their schedule before their home-opener on Sunday against Philadelphia.

The Sabres cap their season tickets at 15,400, leaving about 3,200 tickets available for each game. The team has a 3,000-person waiting list, and estimates it lost about 80 season-ticket holders since last summer.

“I think it’s one of the many affirmations that you continue to get that Buffalo is one of the premier hockey markets in North America, if not the world,” Black said. “Hockey runs so deep here at all levels, men, women, grandparents, people who have grown up with the game. It’s just part of everyone’s DNA.”

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07-02-2013, 01:33 PM
  #296
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Buffalo is definitely safe if Hamilton got a team, especially with Pegula as the owner, but the point is that it's absolutely in their best interest to oppose a team being put there because...

A) They still do get fans from southern Ontario that might not otherwise take the trip or buy their gear if Hamilton got a team, and

B) Should a team ever set up shop in Hamilton, Buffalo's building a history of being opposed that might very well warrant a multimillion dollar indemnity going there way.

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07-02-2013, 04:13 PM
  #297
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The owners who now run copps is the farm team of AHL... what i mean is the parent owners of hte company are tv station of hte flyers... People don't realize money talks and alot of money can do alot of things... If the tv station oh philly has money i bet they could be liek the jets owner... If they play nice nice with Bettman then Hamilton could end up with a team for the right amont of money... Like the new owners said if the Dogs were to move in 3 yrs to Lavall we will have Hockey in Hamilton just a matter of which hockey

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07-02-2013, 04:50 PM
  #298
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If this Coyotes deal falls through tonight which it probley will Hamilton is the only place right now that can take them on this kind of short notice with an arena all set to go while places like Seattle & Quebec City won't be ready for a couple years not to mention if they move the coyotes to Hamilton they can ask for more than double the asking price to any prospective owner ..

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07-02-2013, 05:14 PM
  #299
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Originally Posted by JMROWE View Post
If this Coyotes deal falls through tonight which it probley will Hamilton is the only place right now that can take them on this kind of short notice with an arena all set to go while places like Seattle & Quebec City won't be ready for a couple years not to mention if they move the coyotes to Hamilton they can ask for more than double the asking price to any prospective owner ..
I don't think that's even close to being a reality.

If the Coyotes relocate in the coming days, they will most likely go to Seattle with Quebec City being an outside chance. What information do you have that tells you Hamilton is even a possibility? There's not even someone willing to buy them right now - nevermind having all the other Leafs/Sabres crap ironed out.

You can wish/hope all you want - but that's not going to happen.

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07-02-2013, 05:51 PM
  #300
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Don't think many would argue against the thought that Hamilton will work. Sadly, I don't think Hamilton will ever get a team. The NHL will continue to think they can sell the game in the US as a major sport like they have for 40+ years - and they'll continue to fail. In the meantime this gate-driven league will continue to have about one-third of it's franchises doing anything substantial, while the others will be constantly on the bubble at best.
Quote:
Originally Posted by berklon View Post
I don't think that's even close to being a reality.

If the Coyotes relocate in the coming days, they will most likely go to Seattle with Quebec City being an outside chance. What information do you have that tells you Hamilton is even a possibility? There's not even someone willing to buy them right now - nevermind having all the other Leafs/Sabres crap ironed out.

You can wish/hope all you want - but that's not going to happen.
Sadly I 100 percent agree. At least copps has over 16k, neither Seattle or quebec have that. And ontario/quebec more then other provinces can get away with the 60 cent dollar.

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