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Phil Kessel Discussion Thread. (no goals as of Feb 4, 2013)

View Poll Results: kessel goals, 15 over or under, this year
over 86 51.50%
under 81 48.50%
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Old
02-05-2013, 12:02 AM
  #726
The Mentalist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ErnieLeafs View Post
Don't dodge, show me an example of Kessel not being happy for his teammates.

Also, watch some of the interviews he's done recently. Your talking out of the wrong end right now.
What does it tell you about a player concerned about not scoring when the team is winning?

Dodge you not...

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02-05-2013, 12:16 AM
  #727
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I don't know of any defensive players who, later in their careers, started scoring 30+ goals a season. However, many "one-dimensional," skilled offensive players have learned to play better defence over the years. Sundin and Yzerman immediately come to mind.
I think people need to relax a bit with the one-dimensional argument. Under the right coaching (i.e., not Rotten Ronnie) Kessel will continue to improve his two-way game. We can always find more players who can play defence, but replacing Kessel's scoring abilities won't be easy.
He's had slumps his whole career, he'll get out of this one, the sky isn't falling.

The guy hits sixth in NHL scoring despite being on a very weak team and he's only a complementary, second-line player. Riiiiight.

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02-05-2013, 12:27 AM
  #728
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Originally Posted by number72 View Post
Kessel is not the solution. Kessel is the problem
If we had drafted Kessel and he became the player he is today, he's a Leafs great, but because we traded for him, he's crap...makes sense.

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02-05-2013, 12:27 AM
  #729
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Originally Posted by enixer View Post
I don't know of any defensive players who, later in their careers, started scoring 30+ goals a season. However, many "one-dimensional," skilled offensive players have learned to play better defence over the years. Sundin and Yzerman immediately come to mind.
I think people need to relax a bit with the one-dimensional argument. Under the right coaching (i.e., not Rotten Ronnie) Kessel will continue to improve his two-way game. We can always find more players who can play defence, but replacing Kessel's scoring abilities won't be easy.
He's had slumps his whole career, he'll get out of this one, the sky isn't falling.

The guy hits sixth in NHL scoring despite being on a very weak team and he's only a complementary, second-line player. Riiiiight.
That is two bad examples.....never ever were they considered one dimensional players.....

Kessel will not get better defensively as he is afraid to get involved physically.

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02-05-2013, 12:29 AM
  #730
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Originally Posted by diceman934 View Post
That is two bad examples.....never ever were they considered one dimensional players.....

Kessel will not get better defensively as he is afraid to get involved physically.
I remember lots of people saying he couldn't score without Savard.

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02-05-2013, 12:29 AM
  #731
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Originally Posted by Superstar View Post
If we had drafted Kessel and he became the player he is today, he's a Leafs great, but because we traded for him, he's crap...makes sense.
If we drafted him....it would not be any difference.....Toronto has never liked soft players.....never!

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02-05-2013, 12:31 AM
  #732
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He's a talented player but he's been severely miscast in this role here in Toronto by Brian Burke...and it cost this team so much of their future.

Dave Nonis robbed Florida of a great player once. He is capable of robbing teams for another.
IT cost us 1 good defenseman.

What if we finished 30th? You know like used to be the argument from the anti burke people, how Kessel hurt our draft position.

So we take Hall. We still need a #1 C right now. OUt side RNH and Landeskog Hamilton is as good as anyone taken before him, according to the hype.

So we're still basically right where the **** we are now.

Quit crying.

If we had a GM who didn't make the KEssel deal, he probably doesn't make the LUpul deal.



So Kessel Gardiner LUpul
or Seguin Hamilton Beauchemin

Which do you want?

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02-05-2013, 12:31 AM
  #733
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I'm not worried about him. He's very engaged and he's definitely not giving up. Once he gets it I have a feeling he'll go on a hot streak.

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02-05-2013, 12:36 AM
  #734
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Originally Posted by diceman934 View Post
If we drafted him....it would not be any difference.....Toronto has never liked soft players.....never!
Who are you speaking for? Speak for yourself. If you were unbias, you would see that he's trying his hardest to improve his game. He's lived up to his billing and even more since being traded, improving as a player every year (yes, he's only 25), never crumpled under the scrutiny of the trade and this media and bitter fans, which shows more character than you could ever imagine. I wonder why some players perform better after they are traded to a more obscure hockey market. Be careful what you ask for, not everyone could play in this market, no matter how they may look elsewhere.

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02-05-2013, 12:37 AM
  #735
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Originally Posted by diceman934 View Post
That is two bad examples.....never ever were they considered one dimensional players.....

Kessel will not get better defensively as he is afraid to get involved physically.
Are you 100% sure that Yzerman and Sundin were never considered one-dimensional players? Never ever?

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02-05-2013, 12:39 AM
  #736
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
What does it tell you about a player concerned about not scoring when the team is winning?

Dodge you not...
No, you still haven't shown proof of Kessel being mopey when his team scores/wins.

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02-05-2013, 12:40 AM
  #737
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Originally Posted by Superstar View Post
I remember lots of people saying he couldn't score without Savard.
What is your point....

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02-05-2013, 12:43 AM
  #738
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Superstar View Post
If we had drafted Kessel and he became the player he is today, he's a Leafs great, but because we traded for him, he's crap...makes sense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by diceman934 View Post
If we drafted him....it would not be any difference.....Toronto has never liked soft players.....never!
IF we had drafted him we would have ruined him. Actually Boston played him at 18 so maybe wouldn't have ruined him.

But ya probably we would have. Stupid market. Seguin would have collapsed being hte "Chosen one" to lead us to glory.



Quote:
Originally Posted by diceman934 View Post
That is two bad examples.....never ever were they considered one dimensional players.....

Kessel will not get better defensively as he is afraid to get involved physically.


Yzerman was almost run out of Detroit in the late 80's because he wouldn't play defense.

Scotty Bowman himself was ready to move him if he didn't change in the 90's.

YOu don't get 155pts playing defense.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Superstar View Post
I remember lots of people saying he couldn't score without Savard.
Yup.

Lot of people said he was a one demensional sniper, but he had 45 assists last year when he finally had a line mate who could score.

There is more to Phil than meets the eye.

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02-05-2013, 12:43 AM
  #739
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Originally Posted by enixer View Post
Are you 100% sure that Yzerman and Sundin were never considered one-dimensional players? Never ever?
Yzerman was considered one-dimensional, it's been talked over to death by people in the media and in hockey how the Wings didn't become a winner until he sacrificed his offensive game for a more all-around game. I remember the first several years after Detroit drafted him how awful that team was still. Truth is, as much as Yzerman's game improved, the team didn't become good until he was surrounded with better players (the same situation Kessel is in).

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02-05-2013, 12:44 AM
  #740
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
IT cost us 1 good defenseman.
Kessel cost two firsts and a second which became Seguin Hamilton and Knight.

Quote:
What if we finished 30th? You know like used to be the argument from the anti burke people, how Kessel hurt our draft position.

So we take Hall. We still need a #1 C right now. OUt side RNH and Landeskog Hamilton is as good as anyone taken before him, according to the hype.
You can't rewrite history. Toronto would have certainly picked 1st or 2nd, if we assume Kessel makes the team better. You don't know who the Leafs scouting staff would have picked. It was a close call between Hall and Seguin going 1 and 2.

Quote:
So we're still basically right where the **** we are now.
And again, I have no idea where this sort of opinion comes from. I really don't think you or I have any sort of clue where we would be now and in the future if Brian Burke had not recklessly traded away our two first rounders.

Quote:
Quit crying.
No one is crying here.

Quote:
If we had a GM who didn't make the KEssel deal, he probably doesn't make the LUpul deal.
Again you or I have no idea one way or another what would have transpired.

Quote:
So Kessel Gardiner LUpul
or Seguin Hamilton Beauchemin

Which do you want?
Those deals were separate.

I guess I can say the Thornton trade was a part of the Kessel trade too?

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02-05-2013, 12:45 AM
  #741
charliolemieux
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enixer View Post
Are you 100% sure that Yzerman and Sundin were never considered one-dimensional players? Never ever?
That's what I should have done.

Given him a chance.

You must be a nice guy.

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02-05-2013, 12:45 AM
  #742
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post




Yzerman was almost run out of Detroit in the late 80's because he wouldn't play defense.

Scotty Bowman himself was ready to move him if he didn't change in the 90's.

YOu don't get 155pts playing defense.


This is the truth (I think they wanted to strip that C away from him too at one point if I remember correctly).

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02-05-2013, 12:46 AM
  #743
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
IT cost us 1 good defenseman.

What if we finished 30th? You know like used to be the argument from the anti burke people, how Kessel hurt our draft position.

So we take Hall. We still need a #1 C right now. OUt side RNH and Landeskog Hamilton is as good as anyone taken before him, according to the hype.

So we're still basically right where the **** we are now.

Quit crying.

If we had a GM who didn't make the KEssel deal, he probably doesn't make the LUpul deal.



So Kessel Gardiner LUpul
or Seguin Hamilton Beauchemin

Which do you want?
Lol, not sure if serious. It's a fairly obvious choice.

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Old
02-05-2013, 12:47 AM
  #744
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Originally Posted by Superstar View Post
This is the truth (I think they wanted to strip that C away from him too at one point if I remember correctly).
Comparing Kessel to one of the greatest Red Wing centermen of all time is very demeaning to Yzerman.

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02-05-2013, 12:47 AM
  #745
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Originally Posted by Superstar View Post
Who are you speaking for? Speak for yourself. If you were unbias, you would see that he's trying his hardest to improve his game. He's lived up to his billing and even more since being traded, improving as a player every year (yes, he's only 25), never crumpled under the scrutiny of the trade and this media and bitter fans, which shows more character than you could ever imagine. I wonder why some players perform better after they are traded to a more obscure hockey market. Be careful what you ask for, not everyone could play in this market, no matter how they may look elsewhere.
I dislike him because he is soft.....I have never changed my opinion about that because he has not shown that he is anything but soft. Toronto has always been a fan of a tough player.

Until his improvement is seen in his play away from the puck and is seen engaging in puck retrieving and battling for loose pucks, I will not change my opinion of him being soft....that is not a bias opinion by the way as it is supported by watching him play.

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02-05-2013, 12:51 AM
  #746
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Kessel reminds me of Bargnani. He's a good player and was drafted higher than he should've been. Both are very good scorers who are playing like crap in this season and both are probably the softest players in their respective league and sport. You don't win with these types of players who can't defend, are inconsistent and can be dynamite one week and then go on a 3-4 week disappearing act.

Some might say it's cause Kessel isn't conditioned or is missing Lupul. Well he was able to score 30 without Lupul the year before. He always looks like he's out of shape and has poor conditioning so that's not a factor either. Also, he is supposed to be our best player and he doesn't have the mental or intestinal fortitude to play in this market and take the pressure. I think that's why he's so snake bitten right now. Cause he's gripping his stick to tight.

Look I like Kessel and I think he's a great player and would look awesome on a better team as a second liner. But on the Leafs he's not our go to main player and not someone you can build around.

I think Leafs should move Kessel now while he still has value. Look what happened with the Raptors when they waited to long to move Bargnani. Bargnani is now worthless. They can't even trade his sorry as for a 2nd round pick or an over the hill Pau Gasol.

Sorry I went a lil' OT but I thought that was the best comparison I could think of.

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02-05-2013, 12:51 AM
  #747
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Originally Posted by Bomber0104 View Post
Comparing Kessel to one of the greatest Red Wing centermen of all time is very demeaning to Yzerman.
yes it is.....and very stupid as well.. Stevie Y was never ever considered a perimeter player who would not go into the corners or go to the net without the puck. A great leader who make his team mates better.....yes that was a great comparison!

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02-05-2013, 12:58 AM
  #748
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Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
That's what I should have done.

Given him a chance.

You must be a nice guy.
Not at all, the nice thing to do was correcting him immediately... I was encouraging him to confirm his assertion that I'd provided "bad examples" before proving how wrong he was...

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02-05-2013, 12:59 AM
  #749
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Schneider
Gaunce/Kassian/Jenson
1st Round Pick
3rd Round Pick

Or Phil Kessel

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Its ok to admit you were wrong. Wilson was fired - still the majority of you supported him and his extension. The team is better since his removal. Burke was fired - 80% of you supported him - the sun still rises. Truthfully were already a better hockey team today than we were 4 weeks ago since his removal. The same scenario will play out for Phil Kessel. He'll be traded - we'll end up being a better team. You'll all have to take your medicine once again like good lil boys n girls.

It saddens me to constantly be the one to have to say "I told you so"

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02-05-2013, 01:03 AM
  #750
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Originally Posted by Superstar View Post
Yzerman was considered one-dimensional, it's been talked over to death by people in the media and in hockey how the Wings didn't become a winner until he sacrificed his offensive game for a more all-around game. I remember the first several years after Detroit drafted him how awful that team was still. Truth is, as much as Yzerman's game improved, the team didn't become good until he was surrounded with better players (the same situation Kessel is in).
Exactly.

In response to the other comments, I'm not sure where anyone has said Kessel = Yzerman. There are other valid comparisons being made, however. Developing one's defensive game, being on a crappy team for years, being criticized by clueless fans who didn't appreciate his value as a player and as a future leader on the team... Not sure how Yzerman would find these comparisons demeaning.

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