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Has Gagner proven to you to be a legit 2C?

View Poll Results: Is Gagner a legit 2C
Yes proven 2C keep him 184 67.40%
Yes proven 2C trade him 44 16.12%
No not a proven 2C 45 16.48%
Voters: 273. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
02-11-2013, 05:57 PM
  #276
Stoneman89
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Originally Posted by bellagiobob View Post
We all see different things. No doubt about that. But you asked for some concrete stats, so here are a few prior to the game yesterday. And this is with RNH for the most part playing against superior opposition.

GFON/60 at ES

Gagner 2.13
RNH 2.01

GAON/60
RNH 1.6
Gagner 3.41

+-On/60
RNH +.41
Gagner -1.28

Again, I appreciate Sam's offensive abilities. I just see his skillset better utilized on the wing.

Nice post. Good to see some posters on here offering some quantitative data instead of spewing garbage.

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02-11-2013, 05:58 PM
  #277
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
With all due respect this is silly.

Theres zero validity in posting GFOn/OFF stats at this point. This is a known. These stats have no statistical validity at such limited sample size nor do they correct which players are corelated on the ice.

Everything you stated above is likely explained by one variable. Matched D pairings. The topline has often had the number 1 pair Schultzes on it while the second line has often had Whitney and whatever other dreck. I assure you that would be the salient operative variable right now.

Interestingly this changed yesterday and I welcome it. Nice to see Gagner getting the support of J Schultz and rid of Whitney for at least one game.

Heres a simpler stat but probably more meaningful.

Gagner 13pts

Nuge 5pts (despite that Nuge is playing with the most elite talented players on the club and with J Schultz driving much of the production that the line has)
This seems like a rather dismissive, almost insulting response. Not to even mention you have used those exact stats in the past to support your position on certain players. Then when others use it you say those stats are useless.

Why not just admit it if someone has something that shows that your position or opinion is not nearly what you thought it was? Too much pride to admit when you might be wrong? Just seeing what you want to see?

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Old
02-11-2013, 05:59 PM
  #278
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bellagiobob View Post
Gagner plays with Whitney 3:48min/G

Gagner plays with Potter 2:16min/G

RNH plays with Whitney 3:23min/G

RNH plays with Potter 1:54min/G

Basically 20 seconds difference.

You can call the stats silly, but you asked for some concrete evidence. I guess I could comb thru the video archives and show you examples of why I think RNH has improved his defensive zone play by leaps and bounds, but like you said, we all have our own points of view, and those aren't likely to change.
Thanks for that. Those all ES minutes?

Looks way off to me tbh. What source are you using and please provide link.


How much are each playing with J Schultz and N Schultz?

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02-11-2013, 06:05 PM
  #279
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
Thanks for that. Those all ES minutes?

Looks way off to me tbh. What source are you using and please provide link.


How much are each playing with J Schultz and N Schultz?
They are ES numbers. They were calculated using yesterdays numbers from here with % of TOI converted to TOI.

http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_time_...24+25+26+27+28


Last edited by bellagiobob: 02-11-2013 at 06:11 PM.
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02-11-2013, 06:06 PM
  #280
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Originally Posted by Oilerdiehard View Post
This seems like a rather dismissive, almost insulting response. Not to even mention you have used those exact stats in the past to support your position on certain players. Then when others use it you say those stats are useless.

Why not just admit it if someone has something that shows that your position or opinion is not nearly what you thought it was? Too much pride to admit when you might be wrong? Just seeing what you want to see?
You've got it wrong. ftr I have some university background in stats and a firm understanding of the same. There used to be a limited sample disclaimer on Behind the Net that even stated that limited samples of this duration are not necessarily statistically significant. Thats what I was stating. Most people pulling any stats from the board are aware of this.

Usually I would quote something like this after say 40GP. Also, I would NEVER quote such derivatives as Corsi, Relative Corsi, TEam Corsi ever, and consider them largely to be noise. I don't mind the raw data from Behind the nets and tend to stick to that in anycase.

bellagio is a fine poster and I've given him multiple credits in the thread. Sincerely as well. Guy looks to be digging and proving me wrong on a couple things. Full value for that and I can only thank him. Which I have.

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02-11-2013, 06:07 PM
  #281
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bellagiobob View Post
They are ES numbers. They were calculated using yesterdays numbers from here with % of TOI converted to TOI.

http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_time_...24+25+26+27+28
Comes up as a dead link "page not found" for me. Thanks for trying that and appreciate the effort.

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02-11-2013, 06:11 PM
  #282
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
Comes up as a dead link "page not found" for me. Thanks for trying that and appreciate the effort.
Link should be working now.

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02-11-2013, 06:19 PM
  #283
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Originally Posted by bellagiobob View Post
Link should be working now.
Thanks again, does work now. Looks like I'm flat out wrong re: Whitney and its odd because I recall seeing Whitney on the ice so much when that line is struggling.

First line is seeing quite a lot more of the Schultz as Indicated. That is going to likely help the first line and mask any deficiency there.

It would help the second line as well. Unfortunately right now we only have one D pair playing well.

Anyway much appreciated.

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02-11-2013, 06:32 PM
  #284
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
Thanks again, does work now. Looks like I'm flat out wrong re: Whitney and its odd because I recall seeing Whitney on the ice so much when that line is struggling.

First line is seeing quite a lot more of the Schultz as Indicated. That is going to likely help the first line and mask any deficiency there.

It would help the second line as well. Unfortunately right now we only have one D pair playing well.

Anyway much appreciated.
No problem.

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02-11-2013, 06:50 PM
  #285
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Originally Posted by SeriousBusiness View Post
Who can we trade Hemsky for to centre our second line?
Someone got my meaning despite my not "defining" my tools, and my silly bird analogy; funny that, 'eh Replacement .

I don't like speculating about who we can trade for. Throwing out names doesn't make it happen. In other posts I have said that I like O'Reilly (I even suggested a swap of him for Gagner - see, I believe Gagner has value). I have no idea who is available, and I - like the rest of you - haven't a clue about the real value of 'our' players around the league. Nor do I/we know who Tambellini's been talking to - or even if he has been talking to anyone. Listing a bunch of names is pointless.

But if you were to ask: What do I want in a center? Someone defensively capable because the top six needs it. I want someone with a penchant for physicality, again because the rest of the top six lacks it - granted Hall and Yakupov do throw their weight around some. And the Oil needs to start winning face offs in the oppositions end. I have watched the Oil struggle on the power play because they have a hard time gaining control of the puck. My position isn't anti-Gagner per se, rather I believe that 'we' need a more effective top six. Gagner on the wing would be fine... he just hasn't the tools (yes, those "undefined tools") to be a useful center.

Note: I did not mention size.

Replacement addressed another's use of stats to support the "we need a better center than Gagner" position - and R might be right, those stats may have little to no statistical validity at this point in time (that is, so early in the season). But why are Gagner's 13 points the only stat that seems to matter? In R's words: "probably [a] more meaningful" stat. The team has lost more than it has won... and no one is correlating Gagner's points (not goals but points) to game winners, to points that actually make a difference, to empty nets, nor to first or second assists. It seems it is fine to cite 13 points (because everyone supporting Gagner as 2C does), but things like defensive play, face off %, +/- (basically the things that frustrate some of us about Gagner as a center) are not important. Do you want to know what I think is not important, any single player's "point streak" when the team has lost more games than it has won. I am not even saying losing is Gagner's fault, but something is amiss on the top lines and many of us see it as a deficiency at center.

Heck trade Nugent-Hopkins for Thornton or Getzlaf and Gagner would probably be fine as 2C. Hall-Thornton-Eberle, oh my. EDIT: Actually, I only wrote this last bit to appease pro-Gagner-at-center people. Even with Thornton as 1C Gagner would still be a liability at center.


Last edited by longtimeoilfan: 02-11-2013 at 07:27 PM.
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Old
02-11-2013, 07:03 PM
  #286
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bellagiobob View Post
We all see different things. No doubt about that. But you asked for some concrete stats, so here are a few prior to the game yesterday. And this is with RNH for the most part playing against superior opposition.

GFON/60 at ES



Gagner 2.13
RNH 2.01

GAON/60
RNH 1.6
Gagner 3.41

+-On/60
RNH +.41
Gagner -1.28

Again, I appreciate Sam's offensive abilities. I just see his skillset better utilized on the wing.
Great that you take away any doubts of what the eye catches,! save us kilometers of ranting and misleading! Same about the toi for Gags/Rnh with whitney and potter!

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02-11-2013, 08:47 PM
  #287
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Originally Posted by Pros and Cons View Post
Using me as an example, I was enjoying our debate BBO. I trust I wasn't stepping out of line and coming off incorrectly.
Not using you as an example at all, 2 posters were getting into it in a way that wasn't adding to the thread so that is who my post was directed at.

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Originally Posted by Hoogaar23 View Post
Hey, we have this 23 year old vet and he's OVER 1PPG, pretty good eh?

Yeah man - that's awesome. But how are his faceoffs?

Oh, bad - less than 40% this year.

What? That's a garbage player - we need to get rid of him ASAP. Trade him straight up for Zenon Konopka. Because scoring goals doesn't win hockey games, winning faceoffs does.


I just have to laugh at the people so entrenched in their negative view of Gagner that they refuse to acknowledge what is staring them straight in the eye - even with his deficiencies, the kid is a very very good 2C - borderline 1C.

Keep harping on "not strong enough", "not good enough on faceoffs" while he's making spectacular plays all over the ice and leading this team in scoring.

He has been light years ahead of the golden child RNH this year. (this'll bring em out of the woodwork ) - easily our best C so far, AINEC.
He has been good offensively and at this production level is a VERY good offensive 2C. However I guess it's easier to look at the goals and assists column and just brush off his deficiencies because it has to be posters that have an axe to grind with him personally or something. In terms of offense he has been our best center to this point, in terms of all 3 zones and facing the other teams top players he's not #1, not by a long shot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
heh, the guy is talking about birds, eagles, and undefined tools and its a good post. At least you know why you feel that way.
Mother nature rocks, remember the spiders old friend?

Quote:
heh

Oh, I don't miss this stuff.
Flashbacks of a time gone by?

Quote:
I'n chronically guilty of overthinking but even I don't think its imperative to make moves today to cover up weaknesses that we might have in a contending team years down the road. The only constant being that a lot changes between then and now. As much as I like all the players you mention all have limitations. What has Getzlaf done lately and without Pronger what would he have ever accomplished in his career besides nothing? Which brings up the real point that its world class D that create shutdown. We have one of those now. You know the Schultz I'm talkng about. The brilliant one.
True, a competent or better yet elite defense sure helps to cover a lot of what ails a team.

Quote:
Stoll wasn't all that great at faceoffs either at one point. I seem to recall Adam Oates taking the centers under his wing. Trouble is we don't have a good on ice teacher in that regard. horc isn't too accomplished himself or we wouldn't be having years of problems.
Belanger has been a faceoff ace for many years, the mentor is there if the youngsters seek him out. IMO this year he seems much more entrenched in the team than he was last year.

Quote:
Well I'm not sure what to say about this. Thornton can muscle anybody around and bull to the net. Most forwards don't stand much of a chance with this guy.
RNH's ability to stop and start on a dime and use his stick defensively gives most players fits, it is amazing how good he is defensively at this age, TBH I'm marveling at it almost as much as I was marveling at his offensive skill last season.

Quote:
Pretty sure I acknowledged that earlier. Curiosly enough there was no end of people busy here getting rid of Stoll before and after that year because he just ain't good enough. But now he's he guy we need. I don't disagree but we discard our players like confetti.
I was one of them because I didn't want to pay him like a 2C when he was coming off of multiple concussions.

Quote:
I expect Gagner to get stronger and imagine he will. Obviously no Brindy, but enough that he could stand in the dot better and contain better. Above we're comparing Gagner to a couple players much older than him and who were in prime of life, and Stoll who is just a fine broth of a lad.
He has been getting stronger, slower than I'd like, but there are strides being made in that regard. But even though he is stronger his faceoff % has actually tanked from a somewhat respectable % last season.

Quote:
In my view we win because we are an explosive team with speed, skill that other clubs have difficulty containing. We win through puck possession, smart play up and down the ice, and through whittling our opponents down.
You usually need a few horses to sit on the puck in the o zone to do that at times, we really don't have those guys in the top 6 right now.

Quote:
Kreugers view is that we win by making other clubs worry about our arsenal and damage we can do rather then what the opponent can do. What this does is open things up somewhat so that the offensive plaeyrs on this club can get confident. work in progress obviously but I think we had been over rating our D. I really don't think it was that good and Petry, Smid, Whitney, Peckham, etc being chronically over rated. Now that we have a ringer like J Schultz people can see plain as day what a very good D looks like in comparison. Hopefully Klefbom isn't too put behind schedule without all the hockey he's missed. Maybe Fistric learns some things. I really think we have to have better D overall.
IMO Petry not playing has hurt us a bit, hopefully he rebounds and comes on strong the rest of the way. Smid needs to be better as well. Whitney is done like dinner, N. SChultz is a useful player, Fistric is a role player, and J. Schultz is a stud, plain and simple.

Quote:
When I look back at the Carolina series I don't think they beat us at the Center position at all. I think we were stronger at that position. How Carolina beat us is through scoring depth. They had mixed lines of scoring. Really after game one Brindy didn't do a whole lot in that series. Without the first game Roli disaster I don't know if he's big in that game either.
It's been too long, I remember Cole's return not helping us much. Staal had to have been a force I would think, and let's not forget Ward who was solid.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
With all due respect this is silly.

Theres zero validity in posting GFOn/OFF stats at this point. This is a known. These stats have no statistical validity at such limited sample size nor do they correct which players are corelated on the ice.

Everything you stated above is likely explained by one variable. Matched D pairings. The topline has often had the number 1 pair Schultzes on it while the second line has often had Whitney and whatever other dreck. I assure you that would be the salient operative variable right now.

Interestingly this changed yesterday and I welcome it. Nice to see Gagner getting the support of J Schultz and rid of Whitney for at least one game.

Heres a simpler stat but probably more meaningful.

Gagner 13pts

Nuge 5pts (despite that Nuge is playing with the most elite talented players on the club and with J Schultz driving much of the production that the line has)
Nuge has 6, he assisted on "the great one's" 13th point

Quote:
Originally Posted by bellagiobob View Post
Gagner plays with Whitney 3:48min/G

Gagner plays with Potter 2:16min/G

RNH plays with Whitney 3:23min/G

RNH plays with Potter 1:54min/G

Basically 20 seconds difference.

You can call the stats silly, but you asked for some concrete evidence. I guess I could comb thru the video archives and show you examples of why I think RNH has improved his defensive zone play by leaps and bounds, but like you said, we all have our own points of view, and those aren't likely to change.
Thanks for the spade work bellagio.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
You've got it wrong. ftr I have some university background in stats and a firm understanding of the same. There used to be a limited sample disclaimer on Behind the Net that even stated that limited samples of this duration are not necessarily statistically significant. Thats what I was stating. Most people pulling any stats from the board are aware of this.

Usually I would quote something like this after say 40GP. Also, I would NEVER quote such derivatives as Corsi, Relative Corsi, TEam Corsi ever, and consider them largely to be noise. I don't mind the raw data from Behind the nets and tend to stick to that in anycase.

bellagio is a fine poster and I've given him multiple credits in the thread. Sincerely as well. Guy looks to be digging and proving me wrong on a couple things. Full value for that and I can only thank him. Which I have.
Good stuff, no one ever enjoys admitting that they are wrong, but admitting it is a solid character trait.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
Thanks again, does work now. Looks like I'm flat out wrong re: Whitney and its odd because I recall seeing Whitney on the ice so much when that line is struggling.

First line is seeing quite a lot more of the Schultz as Indicated. That is going to likely help the first line and mask any deficiency there.

It would help the second line as well. Unfortunately right now we only have one D pair playing well.

Anyway much appreciated.
No one wants to see Potter or especially Whitney out with their favorite players We've both seen enough Whitney for our lifetimes and a few more

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02-11-2013, 08:53 PM
  #288
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I seriously think that the proliferation of crazy stats and stat accounting in hockey is ruining the game for a lot of people on these boards. People get so hung up on these numbers that actually watching the game and seeing the players play becomes secondary to who has the better corsi. it's sad.

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02-11-2013, 11:44 PM
  #289
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I like Gag's at 2c, we just need a bigger body on either side of him to open up some ice. he's creative and has some great skill, just need more of a banger on that line.

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02-12-2013, 12:24 AM
  #290
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I seriously think that the proliferation of crazy stats and stat accounting in hockey is ruining the game for a lot of people on these boards. People get so hung up on these numbers that actually watching the game and seeing the players play becomes secondary to who has the better corsi. it's sad.
Exactly! This isn't baseball!

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02-12-2013, 12:36 AM
  #291
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Exactly! This isn't baseball!
Tell that to Donald Fehr.

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02-12-2013, 01:06 PM
  #292
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
Thanks again, does work now. Looks like I'm flat out wrong re: Whitney and its odd because I recall seeing Whitney on the ice so much when that line is struggling.

First line is seeing quite a lot more of the Schultz as Indicated. That is going to likely help the first line and mask any deficiency there.

It would help the second line as well. Unfortunately right now we only have one D pair playing well.

Anyway much appreciated.
Good that you can see this now. Tried to point this out to you earlier, but when people get tunnel vision about something, it tends to form unrealistic opinions on what is actually happening in front of them.

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02-12-2013, 01:09 PM
  #293
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Originally Posted by longtimeoilfan View Post
Someone got my meaning despite my not "defining" my tools, and my silly bird analogy; funny that, 'eh Replacement .

I don't like speculating about who we can trade for. Throwing out names doesn't make it happen. In other posts I have said that I like O'Reilly (I even suggested a swap of him for Gagner - see, I believe Gagner has value). I have no idea who is available, and I - like the rest of you - haven't a clue about the real value of 'our' players around the league. Nor do I/we know who Tambellini's been talking to - or even if he has been talking to anyone. Listing a bunch of names is pointless.

But if you were to ask: What do I want in a center? Someone defensively capable because the top six needs it. I want someone with a penchant for physicality, again because the rest of the top six lacks it - granted Hall and Yakupov do throw their weight around some. And the Oil needs to start winning face offs in the oppositions end. I have watched the Oil struggle on the power play because they have a hard time gaining control of the puck. My position isn't anti-Gagner per se, rather I believe that 'we' need a more effective top six. Gagner on the wing would be fine... he just hasn't the tools (yes, those "undefined tools") to be a useful center.

Note: I did not mention size.

Replacement addressed another's use of stats to support the "we need a better center than Gagner" position - and R might be right, those stats may have little to no statistical validity at this point in time (that is, so early in the season). But why are Gagner's 13 points the only stat that seems to matter? In R's words: "probably [a] more meaningful" stat. The team has lost more than it has won... and no one is correlating Gagner's points (not goals but points) to game winners, to points that actually make a difference, to empty nets, nor to first or second assists. It seems it is fine to cite 13 points (because everyone supporting Gagner as 2C does), but things like defensive play, face off %, +/- (basically the things that frustrate some of us about Gagner as a center) are not important. Do you want to know what I think is not important, any single player's "point streak" when the team has lost more games than it has won. I am not even saying losing is Gagner's fault, but something is amiss on the top lines and many of us see it as a deficiency at center.

Heck trade Nugent-Hopkins for Thornton or Getzlaf and Gagner would probably be fine as 2C. Hall-Thornton-Eberle, oh my. EDIT: Actually, I only wrote this last bit to appease pro-Gagner-at-center people. Even with Thornton as 1C Gagner would still be a liability at center.

Super post, and should be brought forward for all to see again. No one is saying Gagner is a bad centre. But he is not the right fit for this team. We are too soft in the top 6 going forward, not nearly enough physicality and size and can't win a face off if our life depended on it. Horcoff and expecially Belanger are decent on the dot, but they anchor the bottom six. Hall, Nuge, Eberle and Yak aren't going anywhere. Hemsky is driving the 2nd line with his speed. We desperately need a change up from the Nuge, and a better fit.

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02-12-2013, 01:49 PM
  #294
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Mother nature rocks, remember the spiders old friend?
How could I forget..


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Flashbacks of a time gone by?
Seems like yesterday.



Quote:
True, a competent or better yet elite defense sure helps to cover a lot of what ails a team.
Yeah, top 4 D needs to improve. Maybe Smid and Petry just having some fallback this year and they'll probably be OK. More the question though is whether their level of play will prove to be good enough. Thing thats happened is teams have keyed on us better and are bothering to play system to beat us. Last few seasons teams didn't even take us seriously. The positive thing is now teams do and are conscious that they need to play us harder.

Quote:
Belanger has been a faceoff ace for many years, the mentor is there if the youngsters seek him out. IMO this year he seems much more entrenched in the team than he was last year.
Yep, but results take time. Both of the kids are getting harder faceoff matchups now. Thats the learning curve thats going on.


Quote:
RNH's ability to stop and start on a dime and use his stick defensively gives most players fits, it is amazing how good he is defensively at this age, TBH I'm marveling at it almost as much as I was marveling at his offensive skill last season.
Smart kid that'll figure it out. He has better reach than Gagner. But Sam has a lot better acceleration now. He can close better in few steps then he used to be able to do

Quote:
I was one of them because I didn't want to pay him like a 2C when he was coming off of multiple concussions.
I was half way in between. sometimes being reasonable and attributing poor play to the concussion and other times just being frustrated with a team that was in freefall. That was a tough year to be a fan.



Quote:
He has been getting stronger, slower than I'd like, but there are strides being made in that regard. But even though he is stronger his faceoff % has actually tanked from a somewhat respectable % last season.
Take a look at the acceleration and quick closing on the winning goal. Wisniewski was shocked how quickly Sam read and closed at the blueline. he came along way to get there. That was fast.


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You usually need a few horses to sit on the puck in the o zone to do that at times, we really don't have those guys in the top 6 right now.
Harti definitely, Yak will learn that game and he's a strong lad, Hall should adopt more of that, and all the players can play better protecting the puck. You don't have to be huge to do that just slippery. Smyth has made a career of holding in dangerous places.



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IMO Petry not playing has hurt us a bit, hopefully he rebounds and comes on strong the rest of the way. Smid needs to be better as well. Whitney is done like dinner, N. SChultz is a useful player, Fistric is a role player, and J. Schultz is a stud, plain and simple.
agreed with all



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It's been too long, I remember Cole's return not helping us much. Staal had to have been a force I would think, and let's not forget Ward who was solid.
Cole only played the last game or two. He was out injured for much of the series. Stall wasn't yet a dominant player but my memory could be off.


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Nuge has 6, he assisted on "the great one's" 13th point
How soon I forget.



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Thanks for the spade work bellagio.



Good stuff, no one ever enjoys admitting that they are wrong, but admitting it is a solid character trait.



No one wants to see Potter or especially Whitney out with their favorite players We've both seen enough Whitney for our lifetimes and a few more
Hey we all want better posters like Bellagio posting here and I like to encourage that anytime I see it. I'm not a huge stats fan as you know but theres some benefit in the details. Of course Its great when somebody does help inform and doesn't act like a stats overlord about it.

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02-12-2013, 01:53 PM
  #295
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Originally Posted by longtimeoilfan View Post
Someone got my meaning despite my not "defining" my tools, and my silly bird analogy; funny that, 'eh Replacement .

I don't like speculating about who we can trade for. Throwing out names doesn't make it happen. In other posts I have said that I like O'Reilly (I even suggested a swap of him for Gagner - see, I believe Gagner has value). I have no idea who is available, and I - like the rest of you - haven't a clue about the real value of 'our' players around the league. Nor do I/we know who Tambellini's been talking to - or even if he has been talking to anyone. Listing a bunch of names is pointless.

But if you were to ask: What do I want in a center? Someone defensively capable because the top six needs it. I want someone with a penchant for physicality, again because the rest of the top six lacks it - granted Hall and Yakupov do throw their weight around some. And the Oil needs to start winning face offs in the oppositions end. I have watched the Oil struggle on the power play because they have a hard time gaining control of the puck. My position isn't anti-Gagner per se, rather I believe that 'we' need a more effective top six. Gagner on the wing would be fine... he just hasn't the tools (yes, those "undefined tools") to be a useful center.

Note: I did not mention size.

Replacement addressed another's use of stats to support the "we need a better center than Gagner" position - and R might be right, those stats may have little to no statistical validity at this point in time (that is, so early in the season). But why are Gagner's 13 points the only stat that seems to matter? In R's words: "probably [a] more meaningful" stat. The team has lost more than it has won... and no one is correlating Gagner's points (not goals but points) to game winners, to points that actually make a difference, to empty nets, nor to first or second assists. It seems it is fine to cite 13 points (because everyone supporting Gagner as 2C does), but things like defensive play, face off %, +/- (basically the things that frustrate some of us about Gagner as a center) are not important. Do you want to know what I think is not important, any single player's "point streak" when the team has lost more games than it has won. I am not even saying losing is Gagner's fault, but something is amiss on the top lines and many of us see it as a deficiency at center.

Heck trade Nugent-Hopkins for Thornton or Getzlaf and Gagner would probably be fine as 2C. Hall-Thornton-Eberle, oh my. EDIT: Actually, I only wrote this last bit to appease pro-Gagner-at-center people. Even with Thornton as 1C Gagner would still be a liability at center.
I didn't follow what you were saying. Not saying pts is everything, nothing is everything.

Gotta say it though. If we had half a dozen guys playing with Gagner's determination right now would we be losing? Theres still passengers on this ship. The winning culture and effort needs to change first. So you look at which guys have a winning attitude and make sure you keep them around at least until the team culture is healthy and established.

Its no time to get rid of your top boyscout imo when the inmates are still running the asylum.

I bet theres more discord on this club then most people would suspect and at least a few characters that shouldn't be here.

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02-12-2013, 01:59 PM
  #296
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Good that you can see this now. Tried to point this out to you earlier, but when people get tunnel vision about something, it tends to form unrealistic opinions on what is actually happening in front of them.
Distortion can happen. For sure Whitney drives me nuts, I fear when he hops out on the ice. Especially shorthanded.

Despite my being wrong in degrees I was correct as far as J Schultz getting more topline pairing than second line pairing and with Whitney vice versa. I was off with the degrees to which that was happening. Basically anybody on the ice with J Schultz is having a better experience out there for it. What an amazing player. Right now the best hockey player on this club, we'll see down the road, just saying right now.

I would've been more up on this stuff and the line matchups but behind the net often doesn't run right for me. Freezes, keeps giving me corsi **** I don't want to see etc. Lots of times I'll check off the categories I want to see and it doesn't work. So I kind of gave up on that site for awhile.

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02-13-2013, 05:40 AM
  #297
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He's consistently battling for the puck, racing as hard as anyone to it, setting up plays and putting up points. If he can stay consistent he should be considered a strong asset. Plus, he's the second highest point getter in his draft class behind P. Kane.

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02-13-2013, 09:41 AM
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I dont think he had a good game yesterday! The line didnt create much in 5 on 5, actually it was 1 shift in the end of second period where they had a great shift. Our first line was on fire almost the whole game, but couldnt score more then one.

Gagner had a great hit and a couple of good defensive plays, 57 % fo was good but how many fo did he really take, saw he was taken away from the dot at least 3 times because of false start in offensive zone.

As i said many times before, he is very good in pp and 4 on 4 when the play opens up and goes up and down, but not in the cycling game 5 on 5 keeping the puck and pressure.

Yesterday wasnt any different!



That i also expect from a 2 c in a contending team is that they arent so depended in other players, last night was hemsky off mostly and Gagner cant driving a line(yak also yet), even when he played with rookies as Omark/paajarvi he were the passenger.

Saw that a poster said that the game was lost when Sam took a stupid penalty.
Hey, we was behind 1-2 with about 5 minutes left and had a crazy pressure the shift before in pp 4 on 3 when the penalty came. They made 3-1 4 on 4 half a minute later.

We lost the momentum, like we did in the end of 1 period when we where 4-3, then sam and his line throwed away a couple of pucks and throwed away mostly of that pp, 2-0 there and another game.

I dont blame Gagner/ and that line for the lost, that was our incompetence to score/unluck/hot goalie who was the reason for that. But they didnt brought much to give us a chance to win the game either.

He is on a 1 year contract for a reason, and i think comparing what he brings and what we are missing so are the choice pretty easy. The alternatives is Trading Rnh or give Gagner 2 big strong wingers who do alot of his c dutys.

I thinks he hasnt showed yet, now on his 6th season that hes worth all that trouble!
Im very sure he can be a good offensive contributor in a team whos has grit/strenght/size in their toplines, something that we are in great need of.


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02-13-2013, 10:38 PM
  #299
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Nice post. Good to see some posters on here offering some quantitative data instead of spewing garbage.
Quantitative data? Or cherry picked data with a side misdirection?

The biggest difference between RNH and Gagner's time on ice is the quality of the linemates, not the quality of the opposition.

Gagner is playing with a rookie rw on his left wing and the defensive stalwart Ales Hemsky on his rw. RNH is playing with an elite rw and a very good 3rd year player in a spot that he is accustomed to.

I don't mean to slam Hemsky, he's playing really well from what I've seen so far this year. But some things never change, he'll always be on the ice for his share of goals against. Yak and Hemsky aren't the ideal match for a guy like Sam who is not an above average defensive player.



It seems pretty clear that the top line isn't getting back on track, RNH still has less points this season than Gagner had in the Chicago game with Hall and Eberle. Even if it's only for 3 games it seems as though RNH needs a change in scenery for a bit. His accurate wristshot is on net once every ten attempts, he'd have more success just shooting 5 hole when the goalie is already in the butterfly.

RNH is more defensively aware than Gagner is anyways, he's sure to be a better fit with Yak and Hemsky in at least 3 of the 4 zones.

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02-13-2013, 10:51 PM
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I've been a little slow on the uptake this week with the flu.

Regarding Whitney I was actually correct in noting that Whitney had been paired with the Gagner line more than anybody else. What was muddying the data was that Whitney has been benched 3 games. If one looks at Whitney Column Gagner line is getting stuck with him more.

Also as I stated if one checks J Schultz the topline is seeing a lot more of his protection. A huge difference.

If I'm any player on this club I want to be on the ice with J Schultz, not with Whitney or Corey Potter.

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