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Has Gagner proven to you to be a legit 2C?

View Poll Results: Is Gagner a legit 2C
Yes proven 2C keep him 184 67.40%
Yes proven 2C trade him 44 16.12%
No not a proven 2C 45 16.48%
Voters: 273. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
02-18-2013, 08:19 PM
  #401
The Big Unit
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If Gagner gets 35-40 pts this season and remains fairly consistent it'd leave me wanting more before giving him a long term contract. i mean I'd love to say he's arrived and I believe he just might have, however, before the team gives him 4 years and $4M per I'd like to see another year where he actually got somewhere in the range of 55-60 pts. Unfortunately, I think we've reached the point where you have to give him a multi year deal or move him this season.

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02-18-2013, 08:28 PM
  #402
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Originally Posted by The Big Unit View Post
If Gagner gets 35-40 pts this season and remains fairly consistent it'd leave me wanting more before giving him a long term contract. i mean I'd love to say he's arrived and I believe he just might have, however, before the team gives him 4 years and $4M per I'd like to see another year where he actually got somewhere in the range of 55-60 pts. Unfortunately, I think we've reached the point where you have to give him a multi year deal or move him this season.
He wouldn't be Sam if he did not get 40 pts for some strange reason I think he finishes with 41 for the 3rd time in his career.

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02-18-2013, 08:29 PM
  #403
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Originally Posted by McClelland View Post
3g(1 open net)+ 3 2 assists in 14gp isnt improvement for me, but its good for you that you thinks so. Maybe you dont know that he are at his normal sh% with in this stage and his line has been outshot most in the team and hemsky/yak has a abnormal high sh%, that isnt any good signs for the rest of the season, if they dont step up big in the play 5 on 5!
Hey I was just cherry picking stats to make my case look good seems to be the thing to do.

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02-18-2013, 08:30 PM
  #404
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Originally Posted by Blue And Orange View Post
I don't always agree with you but I do agree Gagner needs to work on his consistency. These cold streaks need to stop.

Hopefully this is the year he finally sorts out his consistency issues and maintains a PPG throughout the season. I'm confident that he will.
So far this year he does appear to be more consistent. He was better in his first 6 or 7 games than he has been in his last 6 or 7 but the points are continuing to pour in for Sammy. I think a very large portion of his increase in offensive production is due to the sh% of Hemsky and Yakupov, the reemergence of Hemsky as a legit ppg player and consistent offensive threat and the Yakupov not missing very many chances when Gagner is involved in the play.

I dont think he has to maintain ppg for the rest of the season but if he continues to get lots of PP time and keeps giving the puck to Hemsky and letting Hemsky create magic then he will have reached many expectations for most posters here. If he could add some faceoff skill and defensive play he may even earn himself a Horcoffian type contract from playing with a healthy Hemsky.

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02-18-2013, 08:45 PM
  #405
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
We've been through this many times. Evaluation of stats like this means very little after a 14 game sample and are predicated very much on Qualteam. A whole season sample is much more indicative of where Gagners game has gone.

Of any topsix forward on this club Gagner and RNH are both the most likely to be back covering for D on a pinch as their roles and positions require. RNH happens to be a well coached player, I don't disagree. Belanger and Horcoff are specifically here for their limiting GA body of work and little else. Their games are MORE one dimensional because they can add absolutely nothing to the scoresheet. Its painful watching Belanger try to create offence. Virtually anybody he's playing with goes on a cold spell and always.


btw the bolded is kind of funny because it shows you're stretching an argument.


Lets be clear on one thing here. Gagner never had much benefit here from linemates, org, or coaching. Basically his entire 5 year diet has consisted of being thrown to the wolves and liking it. He went through 4 coaches in 5 years and an org in absolute confusion. Finally there looks to be some more stability, a growing nucleus of good players, and even some vets like Belanger that can help young centers learn one aspect of the game.

It wasn't easy being a Gagner, or Gilbert, learning the ropes on the worst team in the NHL and a team that was dreadfully bad. RNH, just on basis of when he's coming into this org is here at a much better time and with more help. With for instance elite players like J Schultz at D that we simply haven't had since Pronger.
RNH is a much better player than Gagner period, there's a reason why he's facing the opposing teams top players at the ripe of age of 19 years old. Gagner has had 6 seasons to improve on his weaknesses yet he still has a long way to go in some areas. That said if he can keep up his level of play in the O zone and show improvement in the other areas of his game he might just earn himself a chance to stay here for awhile longer as part of this young core.

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I don't, but it doesn't make it any less impressive
Same here, it's impressive and it's the 3rd time in his career that I remember off hand where he's had really hot stretches, the first being late in his rookie year and naturally the second being his legendary hot streak last season. If this hot streak lasts 40-45+ games (maybe tapering off a little) he will have shown that his consistency levels are close to a thing of the past which would make him much more valuable IMO.

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Originally Posted by Hoogaar23 View Post
What if Gagner finishes this season over 1PPG. Say 50 in 48 games? Would THAT be enough to quiet his critics?

For the people saying they now want 60-70 points from their 2C - last year there were only 58 players in the entire NHL to top 60 points, only 20 centers. The previous year, 49 players with 60+, and 20 centers.

Really, having an expectation of 60-70 points from your 2C is unrealistic. Most teams don't even have a 60 point C, let alone a 60 point 2C.
If he gets there and doesn't have his lunch handed to him defensively then yeah that would be a significant step forward IMO.

How many 2nd lines have a 1st overall pick and a former 70+ point scorer on them? It's no secret that our team is being built as an offensive powerhouse so expecting Nashville Predator production is underselling what we have form wingers on this club.

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Originally Posted by The Big Unit View Post
If Gagner gets 35-40 pts this season and remains fairly consistent it'd leave me wanting more before giving him a long term contract. i mean I'd love to say he's arrived and I believe he just might have, however, before the team gives him 4 years and $4M per I'd like to see another year where he actually got somewhere in the range of 55-60 pts. Unfortunately, I think we've reached the point where you have to give him a multi year deal or move him this season.
Yup, it's too bad he didn't produce like this consistently last season, it would've made things a little easier IMO.

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02-18-2013, 08:56 PM
  #406
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Originally Posted by Bryanbryoil View Post
RNH is a much better player than Gagner period, there's a reason why he's facing the opposing teams top players at the ripe of age of 19 years old. Gagner has had 6 seasons to improve on his weaknesses yet he still has a long way to go in some areas. That said if he can keep up his level of play in the O zone and show improvement in the other areas of his game he might just earn himself a chance to stay here for awhile longer as part of this young core.

RNH SHOULD be better, I expect him to be better, he's one of the crown jewels in the org playing alongside 2 other crown jewels in the lineup and with a crown jewel on the back end. This is a nice way to be developing in the league. Don't underestimate the team is helping Nuge and should.

People talk a lot about this being Gagners 6th season but this is the most linemate help he's ever recieved and even at that Kak being a raw rookie.

Nuge is a better player, probably somewhat better coached player, that thinks the game at a higher level. That said Nuge was better than any young player in the world on his draft day. Doesn't follow from that that Sam is an expendable slouch.

As far as your comments Sam does seem to be making some strides in shoring up his game this year and last. We'll see what he can do if the coaching is sensible and with the kind of support he's seeing this year from having at least better offensive linemates.


Just if I can add to your response to Nuge that a lot of players struggle with production if they are not with ideal linemates. A lot of players on this club have that struggle. The times Gagner has been paired with players that are going he's produced. I even recall Hemsky being in a funk last year and Gagner helping him get some more production going although overall Hemsky struggled last year.

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02-18-2013, 10:12 PM
  #407
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
RNH SHOULD be better, I expect him to be better, he's one of the crown jewels in the org playing alongside 2 other crown jewels in the lineup and with a crown jewel on the back end. This is a nice way to be developing in the league. Don't underestimate the team is helping Nuge and should.

People talk a lot about this being Gagners 6th season but this is the most linemate help he's ever recieved and even at that Kak being a raw rookie.

Nuge is a better player, probably somewhat better coached player, that thinks the game at a higher level. That said Nuge was better than any young player in the world on his draft day. Doesn't follow from that that Sam is an expendable slouch.

As far as your comments Sam does seem to be making some strides in shoring up his game this year and last. We'll see what he can do if the coaching is sensible and with the kind of support he's seeing this year from having at least better offensive linemates.


Just if I can add to your response to Nuge that a lot of players struggle with production if they are not with ideal linemates. A lot of players on this club have that struggle. The times Gagner has been paired with players that are going he's produced. I even recall Hemsky being in a funk last year and Gagner helping him get some more production going although overall Hemsky struggled last year.
Fair enough, I got the sense that you were thinking that Gagner > RNH. Gagner must be happier than a pig in **** that he's gotten to play with a healthy Hemsky all season long and that he's had a guy like Nail on the other wing. Besides Penner's breakout year this is probably the best wingers that he's centered in his career and naturally when Nail comes into his own he'll leave the big mans big season behind in the dust.

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02-18-2013, 10:35 PM
  #408
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He has always been very inconsistent. Sure you take out his worst 19 game stretch and his numbers look really good. Take out his best 19 game stretch and they look really bad.
I'm taking out games where he was clearly playing hurt. Sure he's inconsistent but those first 19 games where just awful for him and had more to do with his consistency. Also, I did mention that if you take out his 4 goal game he was still scoring at a 20 goal pace.

...and it's not like 62 games is a small sample size. Add this years stats and he has 22 goals/60 points in his last 76 games.

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02-18-2013, 10:50 PM
  #409
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Originally Posted by Bryanbryoil View Post
Fair enough, I got the sense that you were thinking that Gagner > RNH. Gagner must be happier than a pig in **** that he's gotten to play with a healthy Hemsky all season long and that he's had a guy like Nail on the other wing. Besides Penner's breakout year this is probably the best wingers that he's centered in his career and naturally when Nail comes into his own he'll leave the big mans big season behind in the dust.
Not at all. Your recollection must be bad as mine. Remember I was one of the people here pumping up RNH and wanting him drafted. But with that I have some large expectations of the kid. I see a Beliveau type player here. Hope it turns out that way.

Just so we're clear where we differ is on how much of a dropoff Gagner represents. I think a very under rated player and could put up a stellar career. I'd rather it be here. With Harti fitting in, Yak and Hall only getting bigger, other players getting stronger as they age I think we're OK in topsix.

Who knows what the NHL game even looks like in a couple of years and what brand of play is dictated by rules and calls.

We're both old enough to remember a time when the Legion of Doom type lines were dominant but then rules and hockey changed again and they were out of the picture and Lindros less effective, then retired. Game changes.

Finally, the main comment when the Oilers entered the NHL was that Wayne Gretzky and the Edmonton Oilers wouldn't be able to cope with the physical NHL and would be screaming for places to hide. Never turned out that way and Moose wasn't a dominant player at the time. Moose was more like Hall now except far less prolific early in career. WE never had the giants in topsix, we helped revolutioniz the way the game was played.

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02-18-2013, 10:56 PM
  #410
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I'm taking out games where he was clearly playing hurt. Sure he's inconsistent but those first 19 games where just awful for him and had more to do with his consistency. Also, I did mention that if you take out his 4 goal game he was still scoring at a 20 goal pace.

...and it's not like 62 games is a small sample size. Add this years stats and he has 22 goals/60 points in his last 76 games.
I don't even know how this point would be challenged. Its a statement of fact that Gagner had an ankle injury. One that obviously hampered his play and first push, acceleration, mobility, etc. Those that folllow his play could see the immediate dropoff. Gagner was flying in TC last year and with everybody commenting on improved skating. but in that first 15-20 game stretch he was hampered. Definitely.

Even if one discounts the ankle injury entirely Gagner has 62pts in last 89 games played this year and last. Still good numbers, among the best on this club, and the only guy with anything close to this kind of pts that is outside of first line. He's 23.

A keeper.

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02-18-2013, 10:59 PM
  #411
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Let's not ask to be the Phoenix Coyotes trading Briere for Gratton here. Size is better than not, but it's not better than skill and ability.

I think in a perfect world we have a big centerman in the top 6, but that centerman has to be an actual top 6 player for me to want to replace Gagner. But until the M.Koivus, Kopitars, Couturiers, or Thornton's of the league become available, I think we're better off keeping the good player who happens to be under 6'.

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02-18-2013, 11:05 PM
  #412
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Let's not ask to be the Phoenix Coyotes trading Briere for Gratton here. Size is better than not, but it's not better than skill and ability.

I think in a perfect world we have a big centerman in the top 6, but that centerman has to be an actual top 6 player for me to want to replace Gagner. But until the M.Koivus, Kopitars, Couturiers, or Thornton's of the league become available, I think we're better off keeping the good player who happens to be under 6'.
Yea, obviously Gags isn't the perfect #2 centre but he isn't the worst #2 Centre like some posters like to think.

Not every team can have a Malkin, Kopitar, or Kesler as their #2 centre. I think with this team right now, we have a legit shot at making the playoffs. Gags maintaining his PPG pace will do wonders for this team offensively.

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02-18-2013, 11:28 PM
  #413
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Yea, obviously Gags isn't the perfect #2 centre but he isn't the worst #2 Centre like some posters like to think.

Not every team can have a Malkin, Kopitar, or Kesler as their #2 centre. I think with this team right now, we have a legit shot at making the playoffs. Gags maintaining his PPG pace will do wonders for this team offensively.
Eventually something is gonna have to give on the 2nd line because we will need more size but I bet it's Hemsky that goes and not Gagner.

For the record, Gagner doesn't have to continue to be a ppg player to be a good 2nd line center. 35 centermen had 50+ points last season. What separates the 50 point centermen from the 65 point centermen is consistency. It's not like Gagner is the only 2nd line center that does through slumps. If they were all so consistent, they'd be 1st line players.


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02-19-2013, 07:31 AM
  #414
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How many 2nd lines have a 1st overall pick and a former 70+ point scorer on them? It's no secret that our team is being built as an offensive powerhouse so expecting Nashville Predator production is underselling what we have form wingers on this club.
The Predators? Really? Here are the teams that had a 70 point C last year - not a 2C, just a 70 point 1C:

CAR, LA, NYI, OTT, PHI, PIT, SJ, TB, VAN. 9 teams had a C with 70+.

Team that had a 60 point C - (all of the above obviously) plus BOS, CGY, DAL, DET, MTL, NYR. So only half the teams in the league even had a single 60 point center.

Teams with 2 Cs at 60+:

BOS: Krejci (62) and Bergeron (64) [Seguin with 67, but he played wing all year]

DAL: Benn (63), Ribeiro (63)

DET: Datsyuk (67), Filpulla (66)

SJ: Thornton, Couture (65 - does he play C?), Pavelski (61)

So, 4 teams in the entire NHL with 2Cs over 60 (I suppose you can assume a healthy Crosby is good for over 60, so 5 teams)

Pretty rare company. I'm thinking RNH should be PPG+ as early as next year. And with our strength on the wings, around 50 points from Gagner should be more than enough.

Sure it would be great to have a Malkin as our 2C, but really, I think with the money we'll be spending on the wings (+RNH+J Schultz), $4-$4.5M is probably the most we can afford at 2C.

I guess that would be another way to ask the question. No doubt Gagner could be improved on (Getzlaf as an example) - but who could we replace him with for around $4M that would be better?

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02-19-2013, 09:39 AM
  #415
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I am happy with him on the second line he seems to be doing well this year.

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02-19-2013, 11:23 AM
  #416
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
Not at all. Your recollection must be bad as mine. Remember I was one of the people here pumping up RNH and wanting him drafted. But with that I have some large expectations of the kid. I see a Beliveau type player here. Hope it turns out that way.

Just so we're clear where we differ is on how much of a dropoff Gagner represents. I think a very under rated player and could put up a stellar career. I'd rather it be here. With Harti fitting in, Yak and Hall only getting bigger, other players getting stronger as they age I think we're OK in topsix.

Who knows what the NHL game even looks like in a couple of years and what brand of play is dictated by rules and calls.

We're both old enough to remember a time when the Legion of Doom type lines were dominant but then rules and hockey changed again and they were out of the picture and Lindros less effective, then retired. Game changes.

Finally, the main comment when the Oilers entered the NHL was that Wayne Gretzky and the Edmonton Oilers wouldn't be able to cope with the physical NHL and would be screaming for places to hide. Never turned out that way and Moose wasn't a dominant player at the time. Moose was more like Hall now except far less prolific early in career. WE never had the giants in topsix, we helped revolutioniz the way the game was played.
Messier wasn't a giant but even watching him with the Rangers it was apparent that he was a different breed, he was fast and built like a tank not to mention ornery. That said I still think that something has to give at some point on that 2nd line unless we have a 3rd line that can play 2 way hockey and add grit and skill.

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The Predators? Really? Here are the teams that had a 70 point C last year - not a 2C, just a 70 point 1C:

CAR, LA, NYI, OTT, PHI, PIT, SJ, TB, VAN. 9 teams had a C with 70+.

Team that had a 60 point C - (all of the above obviously) plus BOS, CGY, DAL, DET, MTL, NYR. So only half the teams in the league even had a single 60 point center.

Teams with 2 Cs at 60+:

BOS: Krejci (62) and Bergeron (64) [Seguin with 67, but he played wing all year]

DAL: Benn (63), Ribeiro (63)

DET: Datsyuk (67), Filpulla (66)

SJ: Thornton, Couture (65 - does he play C?), Pavelski (61)

So, 4 teams in the entire NHL with 2Cs over 60 (I suppose you can assume a healthy Crosby is good for over 60, so 5 teams)

Pretty rare company. I'm thinking RNH should be PPG+ as early as next year. And with our strength on the wings, around 50 points from Gagner should be more than enough.

Sure it would be great to have a Malkin as our 2C, but really, I think with the money we'll be spending on the wings (+RNH+J Schultz), $4-$4.5M is probably the most we can afford at 2C.

I guess that would be another way to ask the question. No doubt Gagner could be improved on (Getzlaf as an example) - but who could we replace him with for around $4M that would be better?
Again it is not just about points I don't know how many times this has to be mentioned before people remember that. That said obviously the more that an offensive player produces the better especially when he has shortcomings in other parts of his game. Also of note is that last year is nice and all but there were 7 players in the top 20 in scoring with 1PPG or better, this season there are 26 in the top 30 alone so far. I liken Gagner to a Ribeiro type, pure offense with deficiencies not to the Boston duo, so for him to be worthwhile having here he needs to produce more offensively than most 2C's. If he added more of a shutdown presence then I would lower the bar offensively for him. Ask yourself this, how far do teams with 2C's like Gagner go in the playoffs? This is why he either needs to improve on defense and faceoffs or we need to get an elite 3C to balance the center ice position for us, Gagner can cover some of the 3C's offense since he's better at it than most 2C's and the 3C can cover some of Gagner's deficiencies especially on the road.

Also of note Lecavalier was on pace for 60+ points last year as were Toews, Backstrom, Koivu, and RNH but all suffered lengthy injuries.


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02-19-2013, 11:51 AM
  #417
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Let's not ask to be the Phoenix Coyotes trading Briere for Gratton here. Size is better than not, but it's not better than skill and ability.

I think in a perfect world we have a big centerman in the top 6, but that centerman has to be an actual top 6 player for me to want to replace Gagner. But until the M.Koivus, Kopitars, Couturiers, or Thornton's of the league become available, I think we're better off keeping the good player who happens to be under 6'.
Great post.

Size is so overrated on this forum. It's grit that matters and Gagner has it. He fought Beauchemin in a pointless season so I have no doubt he'll have it when the games count.

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02-19-2013, 04:04 PM
  #418
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Great post.

Size is so overrated on this forum. It's grit that matters and Gagner has it. He fought Beauchemin in a pointless season so I have no doubt he'll have it when the games count.
Him fighting Beachemin wasn't grit, it was stupidity. Grit is not peeling off every time you have a chance to throw a hit. Grit is going hard to the net and getting loss pucks, Gagner was doing a great job of this in the first half of this season hopefully he regains that form.

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02-20-2013, 02:04 AM
  #419
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Ok I am starting to worry about Gagner. It is nice that he is scoring but this pace is troublesome.
If he finishes at a PPG pace he will ask for a small fortune for his next contract. A 23 year old center with his points total would get 4.5+ in the open market, even with all his deficiencies. GMs are stupid (we do not have to look far for evidence of that) and it could be said that Gagner is just entering his prime years. It will be interesting to see what the Oilers decide to do with Gagner going forward.

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02-20-2013, 09:56 AM
  #420
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Ok I am starting to worry about Gagner. It is nice that he is scoring but this pace is troublesome.
If he finishes at a PPG pace he will ask for a small fortune for his next contract. A 23 year old center with his points total would get 4.5+ in the open market, even with all his deficiencies. GMs are stupid (we do not have to look far for evidence of that) and it could be said that Gagner is just entering his prime years. It will be interesting to see what the Oilers decide to do with Gagner going forward.
If management is at all competent and Gagner continues at this pace, they move him for a better fit.

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02-20-2013, 10:03 AM
  #421
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I believe that Gagner is a 2C. However on a small Oiler team that doesn't have a just as talented bigger 1C or an Oiler team that doesn't have bigger wingers for Sam, there just isn't room.

Plus the faceoffs, how can you still be that ****ing terrible.

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02-20-2013, 10:05 AM
  #422
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The thing is big centers that get 50 points and are good on the draw don't really get moved. We're better off trading Hemsky for a big winger to compliment Gagner.

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02-20-2013, 10:08 AM
  #423
Reimer
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Originally Posted by MessierII View Post
The thing is big centers that get 50 points and are good on the draw don't really get moved. We're better off trading Hemsky for a big winger to compliment Gagner.
We missed out on Kassian last year.

I think the same problem exists with big wingers, teams don't just freely treade big top six wingers. Guys like Lucic and Perry wouldn't be cheap if they get moved at all.

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02-20-2013, 10:14 AM
  #424
MessierII
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We missed out on Kassian last year.

I think the same problem exists with big wingers, teams don't just freely treade big top six wingers. Guys like Lucic and Perry wouldn't be cheap if they get moved at all.
You don't need to go after big fish like that. What about guys like Clowe?

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02-20-2013, 10:20 AM
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You don't need to go after big fish like that. What about guys like Clowe?
I have a feeling that if Clowe was available in San Jose and was available for a decent price he would have been moved several times over. The fact that he hasn't pretty much says his status/price.

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