HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Western Conference > Pacific Division > Edmonton Oilers
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Has Gagner proven to you to be a legit 2C?

View Poll Results: Is Gagner a legit 2C
Yes proven 2C keep him 184 67.40%
Yes proven 2C trade him 44 16.12%
No not a proven 2C 45 16.48%
Voters: 273. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
03-02-2013, 10:36 PM
  #476
Namtsua
Registered User
 
Namtsua's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 532
vCash: 457
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eskimo44 View Post
Last year was also a contract year. I think he's just getting better every year and now the points are coming. He's just now getting to the age range where players typically break into their primes. At only 23 his prime could still reasonably be 2 seasons away and 10 years in length. The Oilers should be trying to lock him up for some of those prime years now when they can still get a discount on them.

The biggest thing i think everyone forgets to consider is this is an odd season with it starting so late and no preseason. It's prone to outliers IMO. Players like Gagner who managed to play overseas have been at an advantage. Also it's only 20 games into the season, it still could be just a hot streak. The whole contract year thing i don't think factors into it, Gagner is getting better because he's a competitor.
Hence the 8 point game

Namtsua is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-02-2013, 10:51 PM
  #477
harpoon
FOB
 
harpoon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,384
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by McClelland View Post
He is 137 amongst forwards(+10 gp) in points/60 5 on 5.
Still tied for eighth among centers in points as calculated by the NHL ..... not some made up /60 minutes stat.
Quote:
Making points in pp when our pp is among the best in the leuage isnt improvement to me.
And how many goals would our PP have scored without Gagner's contributions?
Quote:
4 goals and 4 2 assists= 8 points Even strenght isnt good in 20 gp.
Maybe focus some of your energy on all the guys who have zeros at even strength.
Quote:
Gagner "fans" likes to compare him with Rnh, thats just dumb. His 2th year in the Nhl who is already better defensively then Gagner, has already a better Fo and creates a lot more 5 on 5 and is +- 0 and facing harder opponents.
Then how is it that he has 1 goal? Is that "creating" a lot more? When I learned math in school 4>1.
Why don't you quote some of those fancy /60 stats you are so fond of for RNH?
Quote:
Im not intrested in a 2 c who plays a wingers game i want to see that he running the line out there, not only show up now and then.
If you can't see that Gagner has been "running" his line, and showing up game after game (unlike his more highly touted team mates) I suggest you try watching the game a little more carefully.

harpoon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-03-2013, 08:57 AM
  #478
McClelland
Registered User
 
McClelland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Bergen
Country: Norway
Posts: 1,063
vCash: 50
Here is my made up stats Ev strenght/60 http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stati...4+55+56#snip=f Look at place nr 138

The fact is that Gagner has 0nly 8 points 20 gp, 4 g(1 empty net) and 4 2 ass thats not domination for a 2 C. The problems with Gagnerians like you is that you overvalue a good start in points but cant see behind these numbers.

His production in pp isnt so hard to replace, we have so much talent in this team who can take his pp time.

The problem that the Gagnerians dont want to see and closes their eyes for is, he is worse then ever in FO, lines with him bleeding goals and his corsi indicates that his line have been outshot big and they have been dominated 5 on 5. Thats facts who even woreshippers cant deny. Hes - 5 thats a fact (but maybe the nhl.com has cheating with his numbers).

Gagnerians like Gagner and comparing him with Rnh who is +- 0 and is playing his 2th season while Gagner are in his 6 th. Rnh line has dominated and outshooting their opponents 5 on 5, he is also better at fo and in own zone then Gags(his 2 th season). I really thinks that Gagnerians holds Gagner higher then Rnh, thats really sick!

When reading Gagnerians posts in Gamethreads you almost thinks that there is a tennisgame with Gagner involved then a hockey game with a team involved. Celebrate every little thing he do right and hide the flaws and hunt down and stalk every poster who thinks different. You can wonder why posters stay away from the Gagner thread and uses another thread to trade him away.

He is small and plays small, it doesnt matter that he tries to compete, its not enough. He isnt strong enough to win enough strides and he cant protect the puck or hold on to have pressure in the offensive zone(like the first line).

Its a fact that he is on a 1 year contract, its a fact that we cant give him a long big ala horcoff contract, when we have Rnh and Yak to sign longterm. He isnt a fit and i wish him a good career in a team where his weakness compensates with stronger linemates.

McClelland is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-03-2013, 09:30 AM
  #479
MadMax82*
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 377
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by McClelland View Post
Here is my made up stats Ev strenght/60 http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stati...4+55+56#snip=f Look at place nr 138

The fact is that Gagner has 0nly 8 points 20 gp, 4 g(1 empty net) and 4 2 ass thats not domination for a 2 C. The problems with Gagnerians like you is that you overvalue a good start in points but cant see behind these numbers.

His production in pp isnt so hard to replace, we have so much talent in this team who can take his pp time.

The problem that the Gagnerians dont want to see and closes their eyes for is, he is worse then ever in FO, lines with him bleeding goals and his corsi indicates that his line have been outshot big and they have been dominated 5 on 5. Thats facts who even woreshippers cant deny. Hes - 5 thats a fact (but maybe the nhl.com has cheating with his numbers).

Gagnerians like Gagner and comparing him with Rnh who is +- 0 and is playing his 2th season while Gagner are in his 6 th. Rnh line has dominated and outshooting their opponents 5 on 5, he is also better at fo and in own zone then Gags(his 2 th season). I really thinks that Gagnerians holds Gagner higher then Rnh, thats really sick!

When reading Gagnerians posts in Gamethreads you almost thinks that there is a tennisgame with Gagner involved then a hockey game with a team involved. Celebrate every little thing he do right and hide the flaws and hunt down and stalk every poster who thinks different. You can wonder why posters stay away from the Gagner thread and uses another thread to trade him away.

He is small and plays small, it doesnt matter that he tries to compete, its not enough. He isnt strong enough to win enough strides and he cant protect the puck or hold on to have pressure in the offensive zone(like the first line).

Its a fact that he is on a 1 year contract, its a fact that we cant give him a long big ala horcoff contract, when we have Rnh and Yak to sign longterm. He isnt a fit and i wish him a good career in a team where his weakness compensates with stronger linemates.
SOrry Im still trying to figure out what your saying. Maybe you could try breaking down these advanced math statistics for us dumb people.

MadMax82* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-03-2013, 09:47 AM
  #480
McClelland
Registered User
 
McClelland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Bergen
Country: Norway
Posts: 1,063
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Madmax53 View Post
SOrry Im still trying to figure out what your saying. Maybe you could try breaking down these advanced math statistics for us dumb people.
p/60 = points made for every 60 minute played 5 on 5 . If it that you asked for

McClelland is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-03-2013, 09:50 AM
  #481
BadMedicine*
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 444
vCash: 500
The Gagner debate is long over already, only an fool would try to claim he isnt a 2nd line center and only a bigger fool would fail to aknowledge he is still evolving upwards.

If we had kept our lines the same all year the seperation between Sam and the pack would be larger pointswise as Sam would be further ahead he is hitting his peak at the perfect time to lead this team, but its to the Oilers benefit to micro-manage everyone for very different reasons.


When a system issue is destroying your team you need to look to those who support it and as hard as they fight to preserve it you need to dig in and fight harder to remove them. I am starting to see a dynamic developing here in which Daryl Katz is becoming deserving of this failure of his team to meet minimal expectations. He really is clueless to some degree isnt he? He just bought a company and expected the existing structure to be elite, well he got burned because he didnt know the business and ANYONE could have told him the Oilers Olde Boys Club was destroying this franchise, ha ha ha, everyone knew before katz bought the team that this group was wannabes who would never repeat the winning dynamics of the Dynasty team, Katz was sold on a revisitation to those glory days and he was sold on this managment group reproducing those results with the SYSTEM because thats all they had to offer katz as bait. The real truth is that this teams minimum of two decades of utter failure using this system should have red flagged katz and he should have insisted that the system be the first thing changed, but instead a group of people sold |daryl on the idea that all they were missing was money, that they had the Excaliber System from the Dynast days hidden and they were just waiting for the perfect storm to bring it out, HA HA HA HA HA HA Ha. Hey Daryl Katz, I will sit down and sell you an entire system that works and you can insert anyone you like into the managment positions and it will not change the results the system will provide.

When you invest in high picks especially number ones you need to expect them to be winners at heart, and you cant expect winners to roll over to your inadequate system, they can FEEL when the system is failing them and they are WINNERS so they will NOT stick around when they have reached the point of diminishing return, trust me they are seeing that point on the horizon right now. We bought high performance cars and we are trying to take care of them like beaters, it is a travesty. This group deserved a superior system of play and they havent gotten it because this managment group has pulled the second biggest conjob in NHL history, the LA Kings winning the cup without their coach having a clue how was #1 in my book, ha ha ha, and kevin Lowe and his cronies surviving this long and hoodwinking a billionaire by selling him an offensive trapping system as if it were the Dynastys offensive juggernaught is a close #2, its just really hard not to put the totally lost looks on Sutters face and his post game interviews during the 2012 playoff run in the top spot because he was so lost he looked like Little Red Riding Hood, ha ha ha, and watching Jarret Stoll take control from within was also one of the greates conjobs ever, heck he parlayed someone elses system data into a Stanley Cup ring AND Wayne Gretzkys daughter, ha ha ha ha , and he still hasnt told the complete story of how he did it, this means he has cursed himself and LA has also cursed themselves. On the curse note the Oilers are also deserving of a curse for their lack of integrity that exists somewhere as we speak, the Olde Boys Club could make this a curse longer than the NY Rangers curse. And Katz , well I thought he was to smart to get caught with his pants this far down.


Anyone who wants a target needs to look at the system and stop buying into the sales job Ralph and the organisation are stuffing down our throats. Many people have tried to help here, i even created a new system of play for this team and offered it to the team, this is a potential failure of epic proportions and I am not sticking around for it much longer, in terms of a personal investment from a fans perspective this year is a wash already and next year doesnt look much brighter, just more blaming the players and coaches, but no proactive changes, I am not waiting for Kevin Lowe and this sham of a managment core to destroy this excellent opportunity we have here with my support, it is time to become a hostile witness, I am an Oilers fan but I will refuse to help this team as long as they openly refuse to change the system and its managers. I cant do much as one fan other than type away, but honestly this is sad already, soon K.Lowe will be jumping ship, the cat is out of the bag and isnt going back in. This team needs a new system and that means wholesale changes are on the way sooner than we all expect, Katz cant be this out of tough with the pulse of his businesses,he is also a winner and he will not tolerate this when he finally pulls his head out of the sand, misplaced loyalty can be a painfull thing when a lack of integrity is exposed. This storm will not be weathered and we need massive change immediatly


Last edited by BadMedicine*: 03-03-2013 at 12:28 PM.
BadMedicine* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-03-2013, 11:28 AM
  #482
Hoogaar23
Registered User
 
Hoogaar23's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,468
vCash: 500
Oh hellllllll no - I ain't reading that.

Hoogaar23 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-03-2013, 11:57 AM
  #483
MadMax82*
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 377
vCash: 500
Bad Medicine... HOw do you have the time to type so many novels?

MadMax82* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-03-2013, 12:05 PM
  #484
t0psh3lfclu7ch
Real Men Have Scars
 
t0psh3lfclu7ch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Winnipeg
Country: Canada
Posts: 684
vCash: 500
Send a message via ICQ to t0psh3lfclu7ch
Bad Medicine thats you Tom Renney!

t0psh3lfclu7ch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-03-2013, 12:27 PM
  #485
Replacement
Now with 9% more zen
 
Replacement's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Hockey Hell
Country: Canada
Posts: 36,597
vCash: 500
BM, thanks for breaking that up into separated paragraphs.

Replacement is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
03-03-2013, 12:57 PM
  #486
TheGudge
Registered User
 
TheGudge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Definitely not sober
Country: Canada
Posts: 702
vCash: 500
**** it. BadMedicine for Head Coach

TheGudge is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-03-2013, 01:05 PM
  #487
topchowda
Registered User
 
topchowda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 6,762
vCash: 500
BM could have the answer to life written in those posts but noone would know. I read some and they are actually well thought out.

topchowda is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
03-03-2013, 01:26 PM
  #488
BadMedicine*
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 444
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by t0psh3lfclu7ch View Post
Bad Medicine thats you Tom Renney!
Hey, is that you Hallsy! You better get back to the power forward game and let Nuge do the surgical work, you need to regain your lines dynamic structure, for you this just means picking a few o-zone entrys and giving Nuge a consistant and repetative series of attacks so he can pinpoint his offensive attacks, let him do the planning, you just be Taylor Hall and go hard to the right places without the puck and spread the defenses out with your positioning in and near shooting lanes so they have to make little adjustments towards you, dart in and out more without the puck better manage your sphere of influence.

Ha ha ha, if I were Renney we would have been holding the Cup and skating it around our own rink last year, because then we would have been using the NewAge Hockey System and birthing a new Dynasty.

I liked Renney as much as any Oilers coach, but if I were Renney I would be as gone from here as he is because this system we are still using here that Tom was forced to use is a flawed and complicated labor intensive system, an offensive trap. I couldnt have accepted all the hard work and lack of positive results, the wheelspinning would have cracked me like a walnut.

I will bet you anything that Ralph does no better statisticly with this system than Tom Renney did, simply because we have a better performance baseline to base our guess from than most teams although it is a loseing one, truth be told Mac-T and Tom Renney and Ralph Krueger could all be sitting in a retirement home one day together comparing nearly identical winning percentages useing this system. They are all skinning the same cat, just different ways.

BadMedicine* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-03-2013, 01:48 PM
  #489
Bryanbryoil
Moderator
I Know A Thing Or 6
 
Bryanbryoil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: About Winning
Posts: 50,819
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoogaar23 View Post
Oh hellllllll no - I ain't reading that.
Posts like these will be considered infractable and dealt with accordingly. This is an open warning to everyone that replies to BM's posts in such a manner just for a laugh instead of talking about the contents of his post. If it's too long/not your cup of tea then simply don't read it or put the poster on ignore. BM has been putting his posts in paragraph form now and has some solid posts so he doesn't deserve the ridicule that these types of posts provide.

__________________
Treat Others As You Would Like To Be Treated
Bryanbryoil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-03-2013, 02:05 PM
  #490
BadMedicine*
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 444
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
BM, thanks for breaking that up into separated paragraphs.
No problems, I carved a few bits and pieces off as well.

I am constantly deleting parts of posts as I edit, because there is so much Intuative Dynamic Analysis missing from the Oilers organisational perspective, the team has incorporated stats based analysis on its own and it has failed badly at providing quantifiable definable results, in other words it turtled. And the team has no replacement.

I think we have appropriate personell in all positions, I believe we have an outdated and exposed system of play with a historiclly documented losing percentage. A system the Olde Boys Club has kept on life-support for so long it has become our achilles heel. If we dont change the system wholesale soon we will continue to recieve inconsistant results until we begin to point fingers and then cannibalise ourselves as we implode and the ultra-focused defense continues to tighten the noose around a dwindeling offense , as history dictates this system does.

I just hope fans can see the system we are using for what it is, a relic, with a losing record, a flawed and broken dream of a bunch of old warriors. This system is now being used all over the NHL, it used to give us an edge, now its referred to as the offensive trap it really is and many teams know how to put it into a system checkmate. Its time to move on IMHO.

There are many hockeysmart fans in Edmonton and around the world, and the more we discuss the system specificlly the more we force our organisation to address the problems we are seeing with it, the historical and epic problems. And the closer we come to revealing the sequential pattern of decisions that kept this archaic wreck of a system in place through literally decades of loseing seasons the better off we will all be in the future because we can stop its tenure permanently.

I also hate it when players are manipulated and coaches and managment protected by their refusal to discuss system data, its like the American government constantly breaching their citizens rights based on `National Security`its a con-job. I happen to have a natural talent for instantly seeing the onice adjustments in realtime at least as fast as any NHL coach I have seen here in Edmonton, and I am being generous so I dont get flamed to much, there is a rumor I am in the high 90% range with speed and accuracy . I see no reason not to have fun with it in cyber-space. Believe it or not we are losing most games by one or two coaching errors or oversights and thats not very much , mostly oversights as we lack Intuative Dynamic vision in realtime. Ralph and his crew are following in the system footsteps of every coaching unit before and making the same sequential errors. I am just trying to initiate change and at the same time trying to provide a better alternative with the NewAge Hockey System, thats just being a fan of the sport.

I have been on a mission to expose this system and the sordid history surrounding it and its preservation, believe it or not I have a long list of victims it has claimed over the years including players coaches and support people with attatched notes showing how and why the decisions to move past these people were wrong and catalysed by this flawed system and its watchmen. Fans get sick of loseing after decades of futility and sooner or later we try to ignite change even if its in desperation, ha ha ha.

BadMedicine* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-03-2013, 02:17 PM
  #491
Replacement
Now with 9% more zen
 
Replacement's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Hockey Hell
Country: Canada
Posts: 36,597
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BadMedicine View Post
No problems, I carved a few bits and pieces off as well.

I am constantly deleting parts of posts as I edit, because there is so much Intuative Dynamic Analysis missing from the Oilers organisational perspective, the team has incorporated stats based analysis on its own and it has failed badly at providing quantifiable definable results, in other words it turtled. And the team has no replacement.

I think we have appropriate personell in all positions, I believe we have an outdated and exposed system of play with a historiclly documented losing percentage. A system the Olde Boys Club has kept on life-support for so long it has become our achilles heel. If we dont change the system wholesale soon we will continue to recieve inconsistant results until we begin to point fingers and then cannibalise ourselves as we implode and the ultra-focused defense continues to tighten the noose around a dwindeling offense , as history dictates this system does.

I just hope fans can see the system we are using for what it is, a relic, with a losing record, a flawed and broken dream of a bunch of old warriors. This system is now being used all over the NHL, it used to give us an edge, now its referred to as the offensive trap it really is and many teams know how to put it into a system checkmate. Its time to move on IMHO.

There are many hockeysmart fans in Edmonton and around the world, and the more we discuss the system specificlly the more we force our organisation to address the problems we are seeing with it, the historical and epic problems. And the closer we come to revealing the sequential pattern of decisions that kept this archaic wreck of a system in place through literally decades of loseing seasons the better off we will all be in the future because we can stop its tenure permanently.

I also hate it when players are manipulated and coaches and managment protected by their refusal to discuss system data, its like the American government constantly breaching their citizens rights based on `National Security`its a con-job. I happen to have a natural talent for instantly seeing the onice adjustments in realtime at least as fast as any NHL coach I have seen here in Edmonton, and I am being generous so I dont get flamed to much, there is a rumor I am in the high 90% range with speed and accuracy . I see no reason not to have fun with it in cyber-space. Believe it or not we are losing most games by one or two coaching errors or oversights and thats not very much , mostly oversights as we lack Intuative Dynamic vision in realtime. Ralph and his crew are following in the system footsteps of every coaching unit before and making the same sequential errors. I am just trying to initiate change and at the same time trying to provide a better alternative with the NewAge Hockey System, thats just being a fan of the sport.

I have been on a mission to expose this system and the sordid history surrounding it and its preservation, believe it or not I have a long list of victims it has claimed over the years including players coaches and support people with attatched notes showing how and why the decisions to move past these people were wrong and catalysed by this flawed system and its watchmen. Fans get sick of loseing after decades of futility and sooner or later we try to ignite change even if its in desperation, ha ha ha.
No problem.

I think your posts are getting more effective and with brevity also achieving that. On a messageboard theres a definable length of post thats the most effective in communicating thoughts. I'm not good at being concise either obviously.

This isn't twitter and a typical maximum word count, but it ain't an Encyclopedia either. My comments to you just so you know are to increase you being read and to separate out the thoughts you have that are more conveyed here, vs ones that aren't.

That said its not my place to say how to post, only suggestions is all.

But one point here. When you venture into such topics as American civil rights you're revealing yourself fully as a tangential thinker that veers off into various directions and sometimes all at the same time. Its a vestige of the human mind to believe that what is rattling around in our head is easily explained, understood, disseminated, but its often a thought only rattling around in our brain. (yes again I'm guilty of overthinking things) when you go on these forays it becomes much harder to establish what you are saying. Alternately some of the forays can be weaned as non critical to your explanation. Less in this case being more.

Heres a sober comment that a first year English professor wrote on one of my first University essays:

"The purpose of the English Language is to communicate clearly, you obviously have not understood that explicit purpose"

lol.....I could've been angry at that comment, complain, deny, argue, but he was dead right at the time. I was stunned. But I needed him to state that.

AS far as the New Age Hockey theorem what you may want to do with that is to really take a lot of time to compose exactly how you want to state it in possibly an OP thread by yourself, and have it more explained and illustrated there. That way there could be specific clarified discussion on that in one area. You make the mistake(jmo) of dropping bits of your analysis on NAH across several posts and threads and expecting the reader to assimilate that together which rarely happens that way.

I would imagine that most posters here (and I'm guilty) still don't know what you mean by New Age Hockey and don't completely follow your explanation of it.

Hope this is helpful


Last edited by Replacement: 03-03-2013 at 02:40 PM.
Replacement is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
03-03-2013, 03:06 PM
  #492
Blue And Orange
#KevinLoweMustGo
 
Blue And Orange's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,252
vCash: 500
I know who to vote for best new poster of 2012-13

Blue And Orange is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-03-2013, 04:04 PM
  #493
ChadSC
SportingCharts
 
ChadSC's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 92
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Madmax53 View Post
SOrry Im still trying to figure out what your saying. Maybe you could try breaking down these advanced math statistics for us dumb people.
If you want to do it yourself: take a players points (or any other stat) divide by total time on ice multiply by 60.

The reason to do this is so that you can equate for ice-time and better compare players on a more even ground.

ChadSC is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:18 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.