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Has Gagner proven to you to be a legit 2C?

View Poll Results: Is Gagner a legit 2C
Yes proven 2C keep him 184 67.40%
Yes proven 2C trade him 44 16.12%
No not a proven 2C 45 16.48%
Voters: 273. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
02-11-2013, 01:38 AM
  #176
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Originally Posted by Bryanbryoil View Post
So let me get this straight, because Gagner is off to a hot start he is now a 1st line center? After 12 games where he is 38% on faceoffs, is a - player, got schooled by Umberger tonight? Give me a ****ing break. Wake me up when Gagner hits even 60 points in the NHL. He'd get torched head to head with any of those centers and IMO Lecavalier isn't even a true #1 at this point in his career. Talk about putting the cart before the horse. If he truly believes that garbage then I'd guess that option #2 fits him like a glove.
Now its 60pts, before it was 50 the anti-gagner camp were looking at.

Interesting. Looks like Gagner getting more productive and goalposts moving.

Nobody on this club but Eberle has bagged 60pts in recent memory but Gagner should get 60 to stay on the island. Sounds fair. Why not 70?

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02-11-2013, 01:42 AM
  #177
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Offensively he is playing fine hockey, it doesn't hurt that he has a healthy and rejuvinated Hemsky and either Nail or Hall on his wing. That said I'll give credit where it's due, he has been making things happen offensively this season so far. Now the bad part, his defense is sub par, his faceoffs are disgustingly bad for a player with his experience level, and he seems to like to fly the zone rather than support the breakout. He thinks offense 1st, 2nd, and 3rd sometimes and that kind of thinking will kill us if we make it to the postseason with him in tow.
This is pure fiction. If anything Gagner is often the one moving the puck up ice and gaining other zone effectively. One of the worst things about the switch is that Hall thinks he can perform this role. Gagner gains the opposition blueline with more proficiency. Provided linemates Hall and Hemsky aren't jumping offside.

Just wondering if you commented on Eberle "flying the zone in OT against Detroit that cost us the game. Or did you get mixed up?

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02-11-2013, 01:43 AM
  #178
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EVERY player on this club has stretches where they get nothing done and are not scoring goals, getting pts, etc. Strangely among a certain crowd this only gets mentioned when its Sam going cold. Why is that btw?

Gagner now has 60pts over the last 87GP. One of the positive features of Gagner is that he doesn't miss a whole lot of games. I'm talking pure pts and contribution to team. No need for proration in Gagners case is there?

Not sure why you call the 86 games "crap" I was talking about Gagners games this season and last and referenced that clearly. Not sure why you're talking up **** either.

You stated you hated and despised GAgners play in two zones(wow how off I was with that) and that he's a "garbage" hockey player. Good for everybody to know how you stand on this. Not like it isn't obvious.
He's garbage in 2/3 zones, I guess I need to say that he's a hell of a player to make you happy? Too bad that he's good in one zone and he has been rather inconsistent in that zone except for 1/4 of this shortened season. The thing about Gagner is that when he isn't scoring he still sucks in 2/3 zones and he sucks at faceoffs so he is basically worthless as far as winning hockey games go.

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02-11-2013, 01:48 AM
  #179
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BBO sometimes it seems you hate Gagner as a person almost. The vitriol you throw at him is incredible. Does any player on this club draw as much ire from you than Gagner?

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02-11-2013, 01:50 AM
  #180
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I said that I hate and despise his game in the D and Neutral zones, I guess you accidentally forgot to include that because you couldn't possibly be trying to pick and choose the wording to suit your agenda could you?

So a player that scores 10 points in 10 games and then 2 in the next 10 and then 5 in the next 10 and then 1 in the next 10, etc. is consistent? I guess if consistently inconsistent is consistency then knock your socks off. As for your 86 game crap, are we talking players last 86 games or just the last 86 games that the Oilers have played? If it's the latter then it's obviously because A) our other good players were injured or haven't played that many career games (RNH anyone?).
He's one of the few players on our team that support our D coming back into the NZ zone.

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02-11-2013, 01:50 AM
  #181
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
Now its 60pts, before it was 50 the anti-gagner camp were looking at.

Interesting. Looks like Gagner getting more productive and goalposts moving.

Nobody on this club but Eberle has bagged 60pts in recent memory but Gagner should get 60 to stay on the island. Sounds fair. Why not 70?
Those players have all hit at least 60, I didn't compare them to Gagner in a positive light did I? I have little doubt that Gagner could hit 50 points
playing with Nail and Hemsky all season long, his quality of linemates have increased so too should his production.

Gagner is older than RNH, Hall, and Nail, to be fair Hemsky should be in that range as well and he's the only one in our top 6 that's older than Gagner. Gagner is a center, one of the most important positions in terms of winning games and more importantly playoff matchups and championships, I hold his position in much higher regard than guys like Hemsky's.

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This is pure fiction. If anything Gagner is often the one moving the puck up ice and gaining other zone effectively. One of the worst things about the switch is that Hall thinks he can perform this role. Gagner gains the opposition blueline with more proficiency. Provided linemates Hall and Hemsky aren't jumping offside.

Just wondering if you commented on Eberle "flying the zone in OT against Detroit that cost us the game. Or did you get mixed up?
Hall is very good at gaining the zone as is Hemsky. When Hemsky isn't carrying the puck as you've said he forces lots of offsides calls. And yes Eberle flew the zone and it cost us IMO he has been the worst of our star forwards this season and he needs to pick it up. That still doesn't excuse how often Gagner does it as a center.

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02-11-2013, 01:53 AM
  #182
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BBO sometimes it seems you hate Gagner as a person almost. The vitriol you throw at him is incredible. Does any player on this club draw as much ire from you than Gagner?
I have no issues with him as a man, he seems like a nice enough guy, he doesn't run his mouth like Whitney for example. However he is IMO our biggest stumbling block to becoming a contender so that is where my issue comes from. I detest the way that Whitney has played this year but so does everyone, same for Smyth. That said I don't think that management sees them around for much longer, Gagner may or may not be in the long term plans. IMO if he is it will be a big mistake if he remains at center.

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02-11-2013, 01:54 AM
  #183
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Originally Posted by Bryanbryoil View Post
He's garbage in 2/3 zones, I guess I need to say that he's a hell of a player to make you happy? Too bad that he's good in one zone and he has been rather inconsistent in that zone except for 1/4 of this shortened season. The thing about Gagner is that when he isn't scoring he still sucks in 2/3 zones and he sucks at faceoffs so he is basically worthless as far as winning hockey games go.
You don't need to make me anything. Don't make yourself lack credibility on the topic.

btw its your opinion that he sucks in the two other zones. He had the best +/- on the club last year and wasn't giving up much in ES GA.

You keep talking about Gagner inconsistency. How many times has he been "inconsistent" with linemates that are helpful and on top of their game? How often has he even had good linemates?

This is the year we knew it would happen. soon as Yak got drafted. people that know Gagners skill and compete level knew he would bring it.

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02-11-2013, 01:56 AM
  #184
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
This is pure fiction. If anything Gagner is often the one moving the puck up ice and gaining other zone effectively. One of the worst things about the switch is that Hall thinks he can perform this role. Gagner gains the opposition blueline with more proficiency. Provided linemates Hall and Hemsky aren't jumping offside.

Just wondering if you commented on Eberle "flying the zone in OT against Detroit that cost us the game. Or did you get mixed up?
Curious why you think a player who is regressing in the FO circle in his 6th year in the league and who is physically incapable of playing his position in his own zone makes a great #2C?. Why not make him a winger where his deficiencies in those areas are hidden. Again, this is assuming we had a bigger, more physical, defensively responsible C for him to play with.

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02-11-2013, 01:58 AM
  #185
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Originally Posted by Eytinge View Post
He's one of the few players on our team that support our D coming back into the NZ zone.
Not only that he has been solid on the pk and what i find really intresting is the team has 11 es goals Gagner has been involved in 6off them. plus he has 1 sh point

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02-11-2013, 02:03 AM
  #186
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Originally Posted by Bryanbryoil View Post
Those players have all hit at least 60, I didn't compare them to Gagner in a positive light did I? I have little doubt that Gagner could hit 50 points
playing with Nail and Hemsky all season long, his quality of linemates have increased so too should his production.
Hall hasn't hit 60 pts. Only Hemsky, Horc, Smyth of the vets, and none in recent memory. Only Eberle on the whole team that has in recent years.

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Gagner is older than RNH, Hall, and Nail, to be fair Hemsky should be in that range as well and he's the only one in our top 6 that's older than Gagner. Gagner is a center, one of the most important positions in terms of winning games and more importantly playoff matchups and championships, I hold his position in much higher regard than guys like Hemsky's.
Granted its an important position. One that Gagner is improving at all the time. Do you see him making that strip for the shorthanded break a couple years ago? That was a Pisani/Peca like read. But importantly happening on a club where Gagner isn't really getting that nature of competent exposure. In short who's he supposed to be learning the damn role from. Horcoff? I'll say this, Horc had a lot better instructors.


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Hall is very good at gaining the zone as is Hemsky. When Hemsky isn't carrying the puck as you've said he forces lots of offsides calls. And yes Eberle flew the zone and it cost us IMO he has been the worst of our star forwards this season and he needs to pick it up. That still doesn't excuse how often Gagner does it as a center.
Halls turning the puck over too much in the offensive end. Gagner is actually getting used to getting skilled linemates consistently. Guys with a lot of jump as well that get into the zone fast. Thats a bit of a curve for him in timing.

All I wanted to see is Gagner getting a chance with this type of riches. Now we're seeing it and its looking good. Hell he even helped Paajarvi look good. (and vice versa)

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02-11-2013, 02:05 AM
  #187
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BBO sometimes it seems you hate Gagner as a person almost. The vitriol you throw at him is incredible. Does any player on this club draw as much ire from you than Gagner?
I find it hilarious, BBO was a gigantic Schremp booster- Gagner another London Knight graduate who plays a similair game and is also a small center but is about 5 times the player gets nothing but hatred. Why you might ask? I'm not sure, but it's comedy gold.

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02-11-2013, 02:07 AM
  #188
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Curious why you think a player who is regressing in the FO circle in his 6th year in the league and who is physically incapable of playing his position in his own zone makes a great #2C?. Why not make him a winger where his deficiencies in those areas are hidden. Again, this is assuming we had a bigger, more physical, defensively responsible C for him to play with.
Not sure why you would assume a 23 yr old developing male who is still getting stronger and increasing his build is going to be "incapable" of playing his position. Even at this point, age 23, I would say Gagner is as strong on the ice as Horcoff is right now. I don't see much difference in their puck battle. There should be given that Horcoff is in prime of life, but there isn't.

Not sure why you would say Gagner is "defensively irresponsible". Either. Seems like Kreuger disagrees with you.

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02-11-2013, 02:07 AM
  #189
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You don't need to make me anything. Don't make yourself lack credibility on the topic.

btw its your opinion that he sucks in the two other zones. He had the best +/- on the club last year and wasn't giving up much in ES GA.

You keep talking about Gagner inconsistency. How many times has he been "inconsistent" with linemates that are helpful and on top of their game? How often has he even had good linemates?

This is the year we knew it would happen. soon as Yak got drafted. people that know Gagners skill and compete level knew he would bring it.
Here comes the +/- argument, when it's good it's because he's solid defensively, when it's not it's because of the defensive pairing that's been on the ice with him, or on ice save %, or maybe Dubnyk has a vendetta against him and lets in some softies, whatever excuse is the popular one at the moment so insert it here _____.

Gagner has played with Hemsky, a motivated Penner, Hall, Eberle, and now Yakupov. Tonight Paajarvi scored on what appeared to be some sort of a onetimer which from what I've heard is impossible, so it must've been Gagner skating behind Magnus after the pass to direct the puck in or something. No mention of that nice dish from RNH on the EN goal, it was all Gagner, Gagner magic if you will. Let's see him keep it up and more importantly, let's see him get better on draws and in his own end and then we'll talk.

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02-11-2013, 02:11 AM
  #190
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Originally Posted by Bryanbryoil View Post
Here comes the +/- argument, when it's good it's because he's solid defensively, when it's not it's because of the defensive pairing that's been on the ice with him, or on ice save %, or maybe Dubnyk has a vendetta against him and lets in some softies, whatever excuse is the popular one at the moment so insert it here _____.

Gagner has played with Hemsky, a motivated Penner, Hall, Eberle, and now Yakupov. Tonight Paajarvi scored on what appeared to be some sort of a onetimer which from what I've heard is impossible, so it must've been Gagner skating behind Magnus after the pass to direct the puck in or something. No mention of that nice dish from RNH on the EN goal, it was all Gagner, Gagner magic if you will. Let's see him keep it up and more importantly, let's see him get better on draws and in his own end and then we'll talk.
OK, you're just incapable of discussing this reasonably. Good night.

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02-11-2013, 02:12 AM
  #191
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I have no issues with him as a man, he seems like a nice enough guy, he doesn't run his mouth like Whitney for example. However he is IMO our biggest stumbling block to becoming a contender so that is where my issue comes from. I detest the way that Whitney has played this year but so does everyone, same for Smyth. That said I don't think that management sees them around for much longer, Gagner may or may not be in the long term plans. IMO if he is it will be a big mistake if he remains at center.
Ridiculous. That would be Tambo the clown. One of our best players is not the reason the Oilers aren't a contender. Having a big #2 center does not solve the problem of this team.

I've said it before, our bottom six is soft as hell. We can have 2 skilled lines as long as our bottom six can hit, fight, mix it up and PLAY. Having Turris or O'Reilly or whoever else this board has a boner over will not make a difference in the composition of the team.

We can't have Horcoff, MPS, Belanger or Smyth as the bottom six guys for THIS team. We need some Shawn Thorntons, some Dan Carcillos, a Zac Rinaldo, Raffi Torres...let's get some grit or at least mix it up with some of our current bottom six.


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02-11-2013, 02:14 AM
  #192
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I think Gagners been awesome this year and I think he's a great player. That being said, we have too many players like him at the moment. We need a bigger guy who can hold possession for longer and win face offs. It might not be someone fancy, it may even be a Dubinsky type of player. But really Gagner is redundant in our lineup even though he currently has the hot hand.

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02-11-2013, 02:16 AM
  #193
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IMO there are significantly bigger issues than Sam Gagner in terms of becoming a contender.

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02-11-2013, 02:17 AM
  #194
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
Hall hasn't hit 60 pts. Only Hemsky, Horc, Smyth of the vets, and none in recent memory. Only Eberle on the whole team that has in recent years.

Granted its an important position. One that Gagner is improving at all the time. Do you see him making that strip for the shorthanded break a couple years ago? That was a Pisani/Peca like read. But importantly happening on a club where Gagner isn't really getting that nature of competent exposure. In short who's he supposed to be learning the damn role from. Horcoff? I'll say this, Horc had a lot better instructors.
Hall's problem has been staying healthy not production and if he stays healthy (75+ games) in a season he will hit and exceed 60.

TBH I missed the 2nd and 3rd so I only saw the end result, if he started that play with a solid defensive play then good on him I hope to see more of that in the future.

Quote:
Halls turning the puck over too much in the offensive end. Gagner is actually getting used to getting skilled linemates consistently. Guys with a lot of jump as well that get into the zone fast. Thats a bit of a curve for him in timing.

All I wanted to see is Gagner getting a chance with this type of riches. Now we're seeing it and its looking good. Hell he even helped Paajarvi look good. (and vice versa)
Hall has been a turnover machine at times this year and IMO it has really hurt the top PP unit at times. He's great at gaining the line but after that sometimes his passes are off and it screws the timing up or the puck ends up down the ice.

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I find it hilarious, BBO was a gigantic Schremp booster- Gagner another London Knight graduate who plays a similair game and is also a small center but is about 5 times the player gets nothing but hatred. Why you might ask? I'm not sure, but it's comedy gold.
5X the player? At this point in their careers you are selling Gagner short add a 0 and you're getting closer. The difference is that that was a time when we lacked skill in a big way, now we don't, it wasn't that long ago that Gagner was our 1st or 2nd most talented player, now he's probably 6th or 7th. You need players with differing skill sets to win, back then we had grit in droves as well as size, now we have skill but the other 2 are in short order. If that gives you a laugh so be it, making someone laugh is never a bad thing.

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Not sure why you would assume a 23 yr old developing male who is still getting stronger and increasing his build is going to be "incapable" of playing his position. Even at this point, age 23, I would say Gagner is as strong on the ice as Horcoff is right now. I don't see much difference in their puck battle.

Not sure why you would say Gagner is "defensively irresponsible". Either. Seems like Kreuger disagrees with you.
Horcoff is stronger, of this I have little doubt. That said Gagner has slowly been getting stronger, now if only he could learn stick work from RNH it would nullify a lot of his weaknesses.

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02-11-2013, 02:17 AM
  #195
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IMO there are significantly bigger issues than Sam Gagner in terms of becoming a contender.
Although I criticized Gagner a bit, I agree with this.

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02-11-2013, 02:19 AM
  #196
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Originally Posted by Burnt Biscuits View Post
I find it hilarious, BBO was a gigantic Schremp booster- Gagner another London Knight graduate who plays a similair game and is also a small center but is about 5 times the player gets nothing but hatred. Why you might ask? I'm not sure, but it's comedy gold.
I'm guessing BBO doesn't want to be burned by supporting the same kind of player again. Difference is, Schremp was cocky as hell in a bad way and not committed as he should be off the ice (didn't give up McDonalds till a few years into his career ) and full of junior type tricks that don't work in the pros.

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02-11-2013, 02:21 AM
  #197
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Not sure why you would assume a 23 yr old developing male who is still getting stronger and increasing his build is going to be "incapable" of playing his position. Even at this point, age 23, I would say Gagner is as strong on the ice as Horcoff is right now. I don't see much difference in their puck battle. There should be given that Horcoff is in prime of life, but there isn't.

Not sure why you would say Gagner is "defensively irresponsible". Either. Seems like Kreuger disagrees with you.
We much be watching different games then. Today I watched Umberger score a goal due to Gagner's physical limitations in his own zone. He tried, but was incapable of getting proper position on Umberger. He just isn't strong enough. And I didn't say he was defensively irresponsible. I said he was physically incapable. Not a knock on his effort, because he tries, but he just isn't strong enough. It doesn't bother you that a 6th year pro either hasn't taken the time to learn the faceoff craft or is incapable of even approaching a mediocre level?

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02-11-2013, 02:22 AM
  #198
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The Gagner bashing train left town a loooong time ago friends.He has cemented himself as a reliable NHL 2nd-1A line centerman and is still evolving hard and fast upwards and looking like the 1st line leader right now. We just happen to need him anchoring the 2nd line more right now to create secondary scoring consistantly. I just love saying this, wait for his next big multiple point game this year, he will repeat that 6+ point night exebition throughout his career now that he knows what it takes and has the synapse muscle memory planted. Very soon the 1st line will bust out and score a few goals early and break a teams spirit and the Pirahna like 2nd line will shred them for huge points. If we can get Hemmer to the 3rd line and MPS to the 2nd we will see this explosion immediatly as teams will lose spirit when they get hit with someone like Hemmer on the 3rd line its to much to take mentally for 60 mins when they are all flying.

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02-11-2013, 02:23 AM
  #199
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Ridiculous. That would be Tambo the clown. One of our best players is not the reason the Oilers aren't a contender. Having a big #2 center does not solve the problem of this team.

I've said it before, our bottom six is soft as hell. We can have 2 skilled lines as long as our bottom six can hit, fight, mix it up and PLAY. Having Turris or O'Reilly or whoever else this board has a boner over will not make a difference in the composition of the team.

We can't have Horcoff, MPS, Belanger or Smyth as the bottom six guys for THIS team. We need some Shawn Thorntons, some Dan Carcillos, a Zan Rinaldo, Raffi Torres...let's get some grit or at least mix it up with some of our current bottom six.
I'm talking in terms of players not management. While I agree that we need more grit I don't see problems with guys like Belanger and Paajarvi in the bottom 6 at this point. Smyth and Horcoff yes. If we could replace those two with tougher players that would be fine with me.

A bottom 6 of:
Hartikainen-Lander-Paajarvi
Eager-Belanger-Jones

seems pretty solid to me. A good mix of size, speed, and grit as well as defensive awareness and some offensive ability to boot.

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Originally Posted by PETRYDISH View Post
I think Gagners been awesome this year and I think he's a great player. That being said, we have too many players like him at the moment. We need a bigger guy who can hold possession for longer and win face offs. It might not be someone fancy, it may even be a Dubinsky type of player. But really Gagner is redundant in our lineup even though he currently has the hot hand.
Pretty much, he's a victim of the makeup of our team. And while he is hot, personally I think that it's wishful thinking to think that he's going to keep it up.

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Originally Posted by alanschu View Post
IMO there are significantly bigger issues than Sam Gagner in terms of becoming a contender.
Namely what? Management? The bottom pairing? Toughness?

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02-11-2013, 02:24 AM
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harpoon
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Originally Posted by Bryanbryoil View Post
TBH I missed the 2nd and 3rd so I only saw the end result, if he started that play with a solid defensive play then good on him I hope to see more of that in the future.
Wha ...? Watch the play man. It was epic.
Everything people say he can't do (win a board battle, win a footrace, play defense) was all on display in that goal.

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