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Has Gagner proven to you to be a legit 2C?

View Poll Results: Is Gagner a legit 2C
Yes proven 2C keep him 184 67.40%
Yes proven 2C trade him 44 16.12%
No not a proven 2C 45 16.48%
Voters: 273. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
02-11-2013, 02:26 AM
  #201
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Originally Posted by bellagiobob View Post
We much be watching different games then. Today I watched Umberger score a goal due to Gagner's physical limitations in his own zone. He tried, but was incapable of getting proper position on Umberger. He just isn't strong enough. And I didn't say he was defensively irresponsible. I said he was physically incapable. Not a knock on his effort, because he tries, but he just isn't strong enough. It doesn't bother you that a 6th year pro either hasn't taken the time to learn the faceoff craft or is incapable of even approaching a mediocre level?
In context of your post before what was this stating:
Quote:
Again, this is assuming we had a bigger, more physical, defensively responsible C for him to play with
BEing that it seems "more" above, refers to more defensively responsible than gagner.

How else could I possibly take that post the way you wrote it?

That Gagner isn't strong enough to control Umberger wasn;t the case. Gagner was out on the PK for awhile, hemmed in, lost a step and lost positioning. The key was he lost positioning and Umberger got around him Which happens to any player in hockey and for sure to any player on this club not named J Schultz.

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02-11-2013, 02:27 AM
  #202
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Originally Posted by Eytinge View Post
I'm guessing BBO doesn't want to be burned by supporting the same kind of player again. Difference is, Schremp was cocky as hell in a bad way and not committed as he should be off the ice (didn't give up McDonalds till a few years into his career ) and full of junior type tricks that don't work in the pros.
Schremp was his own worst enemy, Gagner is much more committed, a much harder worker, and has a higher hockey IQ. That said even if Schremp had panned out and we had RNH, Schremp would've needed to go IMO just like Gagner does. Both are small players who excel on the offensive side of the puck.

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Originally Posted by BadMedicine View Post
The Gagner bashing train left town a loooong time ago friends.He has cemented himself as a reliable NHL 2nd-1A line centerman and is still evolving hard and fast upwards and looking like the 1st line leader right now. We just happen to need him anchoring the 2nd line more right now to create secondary scoring consistantly. I just love saying this, wait for his next big multiple point game this year, he will repeat that 6+ point night exebition throughout his career now that he knows what it takes and has the synapse muscle memory planted. Very soon the 1st line will bust out and score a few goals early and break a teams spirit and the Pirahna like 2nd line will shred them for huge points. If we can get Hemmer to the 3rd line and MPS to the 2nd we will see this explosion immediatly as teams will lose spirit when they get hit with someone like Hemmer on the 3rd line its to much to take mentally for 60 mins when they are all flying.
Honest question, even if Gagner keeps his 1ppg production level up do you see him having the defensive capabilities to go head to head with Joe Thornton, Getzlaf, Datsyuk, Toews, etc.?

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02-11-2013, 02:28 AM
  #203
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Gagner is a great 2C on a team where the 1C and 3C are being fed difficult shut-down like minutes.

It's the role Filppula plays behind Datsyuk and Helm - he thrives because Datsyuk-Zetter take the tough ES shifts (and win) every game, while he gets the soft minutes and gets to produce offensively.

Similar system occurs in Dallas (Couture between Thornton and Handzus).

RNH isn't that Thornton/Datsyuk type force yet - but he's getting there.

If Gagner is to be entrusted with 2C he needs reliable 2-way wingers to help carry him. Hemsky-Yakupov/Hall are not the answer there. You're looking at great 2-way wingers like Hossa, or Eriksson, or even guys like Peverley in Boston, or one of the half-dozen that they have in STL.

You simply cannot allow him to be the go-to guy defensively on a line.

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02-11-2013, 02:30 AM
  #204
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Originally Posted by bellagiobob View Post
Today I watched Umberger score a goal due to Gagner's physical limitations in his own zone. He tried, but was incapable of getting proper position on Umberger.
I don't know what else Gagner could have done there. RJU made a smart cut to the middle.
A bigger, less physically "limited" player like say Smyth probably would have just slashed him down.
If an Oiler player made that RJU move we'd all be saying how godly they are.
Plus really ... RJU is no dummy. He's scored plenty of goals in this league by knowing how to shield the puck and walk off the wall.

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Originally Posted by Bryanbryoil View Post
Here comes the +/- argument, when it's good it's because he's solid defensively, when it's not it's because of the defensive pairing that's been on the ice with him, or on ice save %, or maybe Dubnyk has a vendetta against him and lets in some softies
Or how about +/- is a decent (not great, decent) stat over the course of a season to identify which players on your team are defensive liabilities and which aren't. Its far less useful when after six games people are pointing out , hey so and so is minus three. That's called cherry picking.

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02-11-2013, 02:30 AM
  #205
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Originally Posted by harpoon View Post
Wha ...? Watch the play man. It was epic.
Everything people say he can't do (win a board battle, win a footrace, play defense) was all on display in that goal.
Precisely. It was a beauty. I earlier compared it to a Peca/Pisani type pinch and up ice execution. but of course Gagner isn't getting the kind of on ice tutelage in the lineup that those players had in their careers.

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02-11-2013, 02:30 AM
  #206
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Originally Posted by Bryanbryoil View Post
I'm talking in terms of players not management. While I agree that we need more grit I don't see problems with guys like Belanger and Paajarvi in the bottom 6 at this point. Smyth and Horcoff yes. If we could replace those two with tougher players that would be fine with me.

A bottom 6 of:
Hartikainen-Lander-Paajarvi
Eager-Belanger-Jones


seems pretty solid to me. A good mix of size, speed, and grit as well as defensive awareness and some offensive ability to boot.



Pretty much, he's a victim of the makeup of our team. And while he is hot, personally I think that it's wishful thinking to think that he's going to keep it up.



Namely what? Management? The bottom pairing? Toughness?
I'd prefer even more physical play in our bottom six. Harti and Eager are the only two guys in that bottom six that land good hits. Jones is too busy thinking he's a goal scorer the last two years. Lander is a bit of a pest but not overly physical, neither is Belanger.

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02-11-2013, 02:32 AM
  #207
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Quote:
Originally Posted by harpoon View Post
Wha ...? Watch the play man. It was epic.
Everything people say he can't do (win a board battle, win a footrace, play defense) was all on display in that goal.
Are we talking about his EN goal? If so it doesn't show that far back on the oilers sites highlights.

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02-11-2013, 02:33 AM
  #208
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Originally Posted by Bryanbryoil View Post
I'm talking in terms of players not management. While I agree that we need more grit I don't see problems with guys like Belanger and Paajarvi in the bottom 6 at this point. Smyth and Horcoff yes. If we could replace those two with tougher players that would be fine with me.

A bottom 6 of:
Hartikainen-Lander-Paajarvi
Eager-Belanger-Jones

If anyone needs to go when Jones comes back it's Hartikainen. He does a heroic job along the boards protecting the puck and being gritty. But to be honest nothing ever comes of it. He can't take his eyes off the puck, and never sees the open man crashing the net or calling for the puck. He gives a good effort, but I'd rather see an even distribution of big guys and speedsters:

MPS-Lander-Jones
Eager-Belanger-Petrell

Although having 2 brain-less bozo's like Jones/MPS on one line may give Lander fits on offense.

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02-11-2013, 02:34 AM
  #209
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Originally Posted by harpoon View Post
I don't know what else Gagner could have done there. RJU made a smart cut to the middle.
A bigger, less physically "limited" player like say Smyth probably would have just slashed him down.
If an Oiler player made that RJU move we'd all be saying how godly they are.
Plus really ... RJU is no dummy. He's scored plenty of goals in this league by knowing how to shield the puck and walk off the wall.
Indeed its his play. Thats the bread and butter. Would've been scouted better cept thats the first goal Umberger scored this season. Theres been plenty of similar before though.

But heres the rub. The coaching staff want the Oiler to inflict their pain on the opposition more than worry what the other team can do. So it isn't really a D first focus that the players are getting. Its more a puck control focus and making the other club chance and sweat.

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02-11-2013, 02:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Bryanbryoil View Post
Are we talking about his EN goal? If so it doesn't show that far back on the oilers sites highlights.
The shorthanded goal where Gagner aggressively challenges defender on his own blueline, wins a puck with hard board work, gets the puck out, leaves defender in dust, and then due to other defender having position to negate breakaway deftly makes a no look backhand pass to MPS for the winner. Probably what you're misisng is the hilites might now show the brilliant agressive pinch, strip, and rush by Gagner.

He made that whole play, and goal, out of nothing. Great finish, as I stated multiple times, by MPS.

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02-11-2013, 02:38 AM
  #211
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Originally Posted by Hemsky_83 View Post
Gagner is a great 2C on a team where the 1C and 3C are being fed difficult shut-down like minutes.

It's the role Filppula plays behind Datsyuk and Helm - he thrives because Datsyuk-Zetter take the tough ES shifts (and win) every game, while he gets the soft minutes and gets to produce offensively.

Similar system occurs in Dallas (Couture between Thornton and Handzus).

RNH isn't that Thornton/Datsyuk type force yet - but he's getting there.

If Gagner is to be entrusted with 2C he needs reliable 2-way wingers to help carry him. Hemsky-Yakupov/Hall are not the answer there. You're looking at great 2-way wingers like Hossa, or Eriksson, or even guys like Peverley in Boston, or one of the half-dozen that they have in STL.

You simply cannot allow him to be the go-to guy defensively on a line.
Agreed, he is proving that he can light it up in that role, if we plan on keeping him we'll need a much better 3C than what we have in the NHL and in the system. So to be fair to Gagner if he can keep up most of this production he will have at least proven that he has that on lockdown which is more than could be said prior to the start of the year IMO.

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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
Precisely. It was a beauty. I earlier compared it to a Peca/Pisani type pinch and up ice execution. but of course Gagner isn't getting the kind of on ice tutelage in the lineup that those players had in their careers.
A damn shame that I didn't get to see it, does anyone know where I could see it?

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Originally Posted by Eytinge View Post
I'd prefer even more physical play in our bottom six. Harti and Eager are the only two guys in that bottom six that land good hits. Jones is too busy thinking he's a goal scorer the last two years. Lander is a bit of a pest but not overly physical, neither is Belanger.
Lander is a pest so that is a major + IMO. Paajarvi slowly but surely is playing more physical and is on his way to being a solid defensive winger IMO. Maybe in time we upgrade on Jones with more physicality if Paajarvi starts to show some more offense? IMO that still looks better than having Slashin' Smyth and Horc's contract in there.

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02-11-2013, 02:39 AM
  #212
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Originally Posted by Bryanbryoil View Post
Are we talking about his EN goal? If so it doesn't show that far back on the oilers sites highlights.
No, Paajarvi's shortie - which btw I made sure to compliment him on profusely in the GDT.
Hell of a one timer that kid has

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02-11-2013, 02:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
In context of your post before what was this stating:


BEing that it seems "more" above, refers to more defensively responsible than gagner.

How else could I possibly take that post the way you wrote it?

That Gagner isn't strong enough to control Umberger wasn;t the case. Gagner was out on the PK for awhile, hemmed in, lost a step and lost positioning. The key was he lost positioning and Umberger got around him Which happens to any player in hockey and for sure to any player on this club not named J Schultz.
If you work in my department and take an exam and get 80% on it, and I say we need someone for the position with better grades, does that mean I called you a dummy?

I don't dislike the player. I just see a player that would be better suited to the wing. You seem a little overly protective of him.

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02-11-2013, 02:42 AM
  #214
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Originally Posted by harpoon View Post
No, Paajarvi's shortie - which btw I made sure to compliment him on profusely in the GDT.
Hell of a one timer that kid has
Was a big time NHL snipe by MPS but no way he had that snipe if not for Gagner. Thank god it was Smyth in the box cause he would of been out there and not MPS and Smyth would of been at center ice when gagner fed that backhand.

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02-11-2013, 02:43 AM
  #215
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
The shorthanded goal where Gagner aggressively challenges defender on his own blueline, wins a puck with hard board work, gets the puck out, leaves defender in dust, and then due to other defender having position to negate breakaway deftly makes a no look backhand pass to MPS for the winner. Probably what you're misisng is the hilites might now show the brilliant agressive pinch, strip, and rush by Gagner.

He made that whole play, and goal, out of nothing.
Ah, yes I have seen that play, it was a great read by Gagner as he had speed and the defender tried to one hand the puck in. He followed it up with a tremendous pass and Magnus did the rest. That was a very good play but IMO it wasn't much of "a battle" at the blueline like harpoon had described it. Personally I like having offensively capable players on the PK for instances like that.

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02-11-2013, 02:43 AM
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BBO, click on the Paajarvi shorthanded goal. It shows the whole sequence.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/boxscore.htm?id=2012020167

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02-11-2013, 02:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
The shorthanded goal where Gagner aggressively challenges defender on his own blueline, wins a puck with hard board work, gets the puck out, leaves defender in dust, and then due to other defender having position to negate breakaway deftly makes a no look backhand pass to MPS for the winner. Probably what you're misisng is the hilites might now show the brilliant agressive pinch, strip, and rush by Gagner.

He made that whole play, and goal, out of nothing. Great finish, as I stated multiple times, by MPS.
Hard board work? He slid forward along the wall past Wisniewski without any physical battle along the boards. Wisniewski was looking around for the puck.

Defender in his dust? By the time Wisniewski figured out Gagner had the puck and turned to chase him, Gagner had a 10-15 foot headstart on him. Pretty easy to "leave 'em in the dust" when you got the headstart.

Dat backhand pass tho

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02-11-2013, 02:46 AM
  #218
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Originally Posted by harpoon View Post
No, Paajarvi's shortie - which btw I made sure to compliment him on profusely in the GDT.
Hell of a one timer that kid has
Yeah I got that cleared up now That was a hell of a read and pass by Gagner. That said Magnus really can onetime that puck it's just that he doesn't get the opportunity to do it very often. The last game Whitney had Magnus for the onetimer and put it too far in front of him so he had to meet it and fire a lesser shot. Gagner is one of our better passers so he let Magnus right into it on the backhand through the defender, that was a sick pass.

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Was a big time NHL snipe by MPS but no way he had that snipe if not for Gagner. Thank god it was Smyth in the box cause he would of been out there and not MPS and Smyth would of been at center ice when gagner fed that backhand.
Yeah, no offense to Smyth but even if he had gotten there there wouldn't have been that much mustard on his onetimer.

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02-11-2013, 02:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Bryanbryoil View Post
A damn shame that I didn't get to see it, does anyone know where I could see it?
TSN has it on their game highlights.
And I'll add that one more viewing of the RJU goal doesn't convince me that Hemsky couldn't have helped out there.
Yes, Gagner got beat but Hemsky wasn't doing much of anything and basically let RJU take the shot unmolested.

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Originally Posted by Bryanbryoil View Post
IMO it wasn't much of "a battle" at the blueline like harpoon had described it. Personally I like having offensively capable players on the PK for instances like that.
Yeah, watching it again I may have exaggerated the "board battle" in my mind. My bad. Still a great play by Gagner any way you look at it.

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02-11-2013, 02:47 AM
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Ah, yes I have seen that play, it was a great read by Gagner as he had speed and the defender tried to one hand the puck in. He followed it up with a tremendous pass and Magnus did the rest. That was a very good play but IMO it wasn't much of "a battle" at the blueline like harpoon had described it. Personally I like having offensively capable players on the PK for instances like that.
Its of course a different feed than the Oilers broadcast. On the oilers broadcast you see that Gagner deftly prevented the puck on the boards as Wisnewski had intended to put it past Gagner and Sam somehow got full control of the puck in full stride(something Gagner is pretty good at)

Great speed, anticipation, on the play and just a filthy no look backhand pass. Skills. Great finish.

That was a gooder all round.

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02-11-2013, 02:48 AM
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Originally Posted by harpoon View Post
TSN has it on their game highlights.
And I'll add that one more viewing of the RJU goal doesn't convince me that Hemsky couldn't have helped out there. Yes, Gagner got beat but Hemsky wasn't doing much of anything and basically let RJU take the shot unmolested.
So what you're saying is our team needs to molest more people.

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02-11-2013, 02:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Hemsky_83 View Post
Hard board work? He slid forward along the wall past Wisniewski without any physical battle along the boards. Wisniewski was looking around for the puck.

Defender in his dust? By the time Wisniewski figured out Gagner had the puck and turned to chase him, Gagner had a 10-15 foot headstart on him. Pretty easy to "leave 'em in the dust" when you got the headstart.

Dat backhand pass tho
Pretty much how I saw it as well. That said it was a good read by him since he had a full head of steam and Wiz tried to one hand it at the line flatfooted. And that pass was something else, gotta give the kid that.

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02-11-2013, 02:51 AM
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Originally Posted by bellagiobob View Post
If you work in my department and take an exam and get 80% on it, and I say we need someone for the position with better grades, does that mean I called you a dummy?

I don't dislike the player. I just see a player that would be better suited to the wing. You seem a little overly protective of him.
NO it means You consider me inadequate in the position for the aforementioned reasons. Nothing wrong with my comprehension.

I like Gagner the player, the personality, and the guy with the solid attitude and try always wanting to be better. A favorite for years. (now I have others)

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02-11-2013, 02:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Bryanbryoil View Post
Yeah I got that cleared up now That was a hell of a read and pass by Gagner. That said Magnus really can onetime that puck it's just that he doesn't get the opportunity to do it very often. The last game Whitney had Magnus for the onetimer and put it too far in front of him so he had to meet it and fire a lesser shot. Gagner is one of our better passers so he let Magnus right into it on the backhand through the defender, that was a sick pass.



Yeah, no offense to Smyth but even if he had gotten there there wouldn't have been that much mustard on his onetimer.
Goes to show as well how MPS speed is such a asset not counting the pp he brings us, not many players could get up the ice that fast to accept that pass. Was truly a great goal all around.

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02-11-2013, 02:52 AM
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So what you're saying is our team needs to molest more people.
Full on molestation please ...

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