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Cory Schneider

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Old
02-02-2013, 04:31 PM
  #151
Vankiller Whale
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HooliganX2 View Post
Varlamov was more proven and younger.
Varlamov at the time of the trade: 59 NHL games, .916 sv%
Schneider right now: 72 NHL games, .928 sv%

?

EDIT: And Schneider stole the playoff job from Luongo, and put up a .960sv%, to counter your edit. Which is much harder than what Varlamov did.

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Old
02-02-2013, 04:50 PM
  #152
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
Yeah, you'll notice that I said they can't. Even if the need was there, they're not going to move Simmonds, nevermind adding a 1st, for Schneider.

Call Simmonds a 2nd line winger if you want. That's not how Philly views him, and the ONLY viewpoint that matters in the context of Simmonds is Philly's.

If the need (and desire to do a $5m+ goaltending tandem) was there. The Cancuks could probably get a 1st round pick, and either a prospect of the Canucks choice, or a Talbot/McGinn/Sestito/Rinaldo type forward.

Trades aren't made based on value, they're made because its in the best interest of both teams.
I totally get that, which is why I've made an effort to suggest that I'm specifically talking about value. I hope that's not confusing.

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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
BTW... what makes you think Schneider's a better goalie than Bobrovski? Surely, it must be all of those tough games and the season Schneider had to work through playing over 50 games in the NHL in his first north american season. Or was it some great numbers that he's put up over 4 years as his team's backup goaltender, playing the games that are predominantly, the weaker subset of the opposition.
The only questions for Cory Schneider are (a) can he put up those numbers playing 50-60 games a year and (b) does being the clear cut number one goalie [not having Luongo] have any effect on his mental game.

(a) I don't worry about at all. He's put up fantastic numbers and performances playing the best of the best in the biggest of games. I really can't see how playing more [weaker teams] changes his ability. I think it's a silly way to look at it if that's what you mean.

(b) We don't really know but he's been able to bounce back after bad games or team outings, he deals with goalie controversy extremely well and is well spoken with the media. It would seem this is no issue what-so-ever as well.

If you wait and want to be 100% sure he's the next best goal tender in the NHL you'll never get him. As far as Brobovski goes, I can't say the same for him in either circumstance. From a pure talent standpoint he is well below Schneider just watching them play in the games you do get to see.

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02-02-2013, 04:56 PM
  #153
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Originally Posted by WinterEmpire View Post
lol I love how the narrative on this flips because of a handful of games. Up until a couple of days ago Luongo was the useless back up who wasn't worth peanuts because Schneider was the starter.

He's not a starter right now because Luongo is playing hot. That has nothing to do with how he is as a goaltender. He's been stuck behind a statistically top 5 goalie for his whole professional career. He would be the starter on at least 20 teams right now if traded.

Most GMs(except Mike Milbury) would employ a much higher degree of analytics than you are using. Either you have no actual grasp on the situation or you just trying to stir something up.
If a narrative has been flipped it is by Canucks fans who have been telling us for years that Schneider's trade value is sky high. Then last summer it was Luongo's trade value that was through the roof. Now it's Schneider's turn again. Everyone else has said the same thing: the return on goalies will be a lot less than you think. But keep on believing that you are going to get a top line player or prospect and a high 1st and something else for one of them.

If the Canucks could have gotten such an offer for one of them, one of them would already be gone.

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Old
02-02-2013, 05:00 PM
  #154
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Originally Posted by Numbers View Post
So at the very least you would not consider Schneider a top prospect? No sorry Leaf fans think goalies grow on trees and have no trade value.
27 in a month. Hardly a prospect

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Old
02-02-2013, 05:01 PM
  #155
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I get the impression that most of the replies on threads are simply are to troll other teams fans.

These kinds of posts are childish and are unhelpful.

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02-02-2013, 05:02 PM
  #156
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Originally Posted by Wizeman View Post
Leafs arent getting Schneider. Better deals will come from other teams. I think the Flyers need him and dump the Bryz pinhead.

To get Schneider , Flyers give us Couturier and Simmonds.

Marty has another year and wont retire. The Islanders might want him but we would need Moulson and Grabner plus their first and thats too much of their core.

Neitro is too much of a head case to be trading Schneider for him.

There is a whole RAFT of teams that could use Schneider. Florida and Tampa could both use him. We have many options with Schneider.
Markstrom
Lindback

Neither Tampa nor Florida will deal for him. Your market is limited. Thus your return will be limited.

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Old
02-02-2013, 05:05 PM
  #157
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Quincy View Post
27 in a month. Hardly a prospect
He's explained this already but he never said he was a prospect. He made it clear that Schneider has proven more then most promising prospects but has never been given the #1 goalie opportunity as of yet. This is in part of playing behind Roberto Luongo and because most goalies don't fully show up till 25-27 years of age.

So in this instance Schneider could very well be considered at the very least a top goaltending prospect, although I think it can be easily argued he is worth more.

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Old
02-02-2013, 05:08 PM
  #158
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Originally Posted by marty111 View Post
I totally get that, which is why I've made an effort to suggest that I'm specifically talking about value. I hope that's not confusing.



The only questions for Cory Schneider are (a) can he put up those numbers playing 50-60 games a year and (b) does being the clear cut number one goalie [not having Luongo] have any effect on his mental game.

(a) I don't worry about at all. He's put up fantastic numbers and performances playing the best of the best in the biggest of games. I really can't see how playing more [weaker teams] changes his ability. I think it's a silly way to look at it if that's what you mean.

(b) We don't really know but he's been able to bounce back after bad games or team outings, he deals with goalie controversy extremely well and is well spoken with the media. It would seem this is no issue what-so-ever as well.

If you wait and want to be 100% sure he's the next best goal tender in the NHL you'll never get him. As far as Brobovski goes, I can't say the same for him in either circumstance. From a pure talent standpoint he is well below Schneider just watching them play in the games you do get to see.
As I mentioned, value is irrelevant. Trades are made because it makes sense for both teams to do so. Even if there was a need for a $4m goaltender in Philly, Simmonds wouldn't be made available for Schneider. The thought of adding a 1st to that it is laughable at best, and at worst, seriously questioning the mental state of anyone who suggests it.

The question of whether Schneider can perform in the #1 role is a big one. In fact, it's probably the biggest question that faces any and every young goaltender. There's a huge jump from putting up good numbers as a backup to getting your team's toughest games, and having to do it night in and night out. So far, we've seen very little indication that Schneider is able to do that.

If the Flyers don't get Schneider because they can reasonably evaluate a goaltender's chances of becoming a #1, that's fine. They'll pick up another backup goalie and see what they can make out of him. As far as Bobrovsky goes, he made that jump that Schneider hasn't been capable of making... but realizing that even after they've made the jump, it's not a safe bet until he can do it for a couple years, they went out and got the best goalie they could. You think they're going to subject themselves to a goalie who hasn't even made that initial huge jump, nevermind doing it over multiple years?

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Old
02-02-2013, 05:11 PM
  #159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
As I mentioned, value is irrelevant. Trades are made because it makes sense for both teams to do so. Even if there was a need for a $4m goaltender in Philly, Simmonds wouldn't be made available for Schneider. The thought of adding a 1st to that it is laughable at best, and at worst, seriously questioning the mental state of anyone who suggests it.

The question of whether Schneider can perform in the #1 role is a big one. In fact, it's probably the biggest question that faces any and every young goaltender. There's a huge jump from putting up good numbers as a backup to getting your team's toughest games, and having to do it night in and night out. So far, we've seen very little indication that Schneider is able to do that.

If the Flyers don't get Schneider because they can reasonably evaluate a goaltender's chances of becoming a #1, that's fine. They'll pick up another backup goalie and see what they can make out of him. As far as Bobrovsky goes, he made that jump that Schneider hasn't been capable of making... but realizing that even after they've made the jump, it's not a safe bet until he can do it for a couple years, they went out and got the best goalie they could. You think they're going to subject themselves to a goalie who hasn't even made that initial huge jump, nevermind doing it over multiple years?
Your post does not consider Schneiders stats from last year. He played 32 games and had a sparkling time. He was shoved into the most difficult games , often coming in cold after not playing for two weeks.

I think your post indicates a very opinionated viewpoint that cherry picks facts in a subjective way.

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Old
02-02-2013, 05:16 PM
  #160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wizeman View Post
Your post does not consider Schneiders stats from last year. He played 32 games and had a sparkling time. He was shoved into the most difficult games , often coming in cold after not playing for two weeks.

I think your post indicates a very opinionated viewpoint that cherry picks facts in a subjective way.
Yes it does. He played 32 games while Luongo played 55. He was the backup.

On average last season, AV felt that Luongo gave his team the best chance to win on most nights. Schneider got the games when Luongo needed a rest, was hurt, and the short stretches when he took the #1 role.

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02-02-2013, 05:19 PM
  #161
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wizeman View Post
Your post does not consider Schneiders stats from last year. He played 32 games and had a sparkling time. He was shoved into the most difficult games , often coming in cold after not playing for two weeks.

I think your post indicates a very opinionated viewpoint that cherry picks facts in a subjective way.
Schneider and Elliot are basically the same age Elliot had better numbers last season. Elliot was forced into a starter role much younger then Schneider with a horrible defense in front of him does that mean Elliot has equal value to Schneider? Elliot started 38 games last season. I don't think anyone in their right mind would think Elliot has proven he is a top goalie in the NHL or even that he should be a starter.

One season with good stats playing less then 40 games does not make you a proven starter.

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Old
02-02-2013, 05:22 PM
  #162
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
The question of whether Schneider can perform in the #1 role is a big one. In fact, it's probably the biggest question that faces any and every young goaltender. There's a huge jump from putting up good numbers as a backup to getting your team's toughest games, and having to do it night in and night out. So far, we've seen very little indication that Schneider is able to do that.
Well at least I see why we disagree. I think you are equating less games = weaker opponents.

However while Schneider has played less games then Luongo he's actually played top teams as well. He's putting great numbers against them in both the regular season AND the playoffs. We can also see this is evident this season as well.

So for me, playing a full 50-60 games is more of a mental and conditioning issue then it is a talent one.

I think you should watch him play more and you'll see that the quality of opponents and the weight of the games [i.e. playoffs] is of the heightest quality.

Maybe then you won't have so many doubts about his play that don't really make all that much sense IMO.

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02-02-2013, 05:26 PM
  #163
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Leafs fans are delusional, they call Schneider "unproven" and say his value will be affected due to his lack of experience, while Gardiner is much less proven, is some how worth a lot to them.

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02-02-2013, 05:29 PM
  #164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HooliganX2 View Post
Schneider and Elliot are basically the same age Elliot had better numbers last season. Elliot was forced into a starter role much younger then Schneider with a horrible defense in front of him does that mean Elliot has equal value to Schneider? Elliot started 38 games last season. I don't think anyone in their right mind would think Elliot has proven he is a top goalie in the NHL or even that he should be a starter.

One season with good stats playing less then 40 games does not make you a proven starter.
Meh, Elliot has looked average on every team he's played for except for one season on Ken Hitchcock's St.Louis Blues. I think that has more to do with his JUMP in numbers.

Schneider has pretty much always had great numbers. Never faltered. And he plays on Vancouver who give up a lot more quality chances then the St. Louis Blues. Not a shot at Nucks fans, but their D isn't loaded with defensive stalwarts or anything. Some nights they look poor defensively.

Anyway, some of you guys have to do less stat watching [even with swiss cheese arguments] and look into the context of the situation to fully evaluate players. It helps by leaps and bounds I tell ya.

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02-02-2013, 05:31 PM
  #165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by King Canuck View Post
Leafs fans are delusional, they call Schneider "unproven" and say his value will be affected due to his lack of experience, while Gardiner is much less proven, is some how worth a lot to them.
I'm a Leaf fan... you know.

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02-02-2013, 05:33 PM
  #166
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Quote:
Originally Posted by King Canuck View Post
Leafs fans are delusional, they call Schneider "unproven" and say his value will be affected due to his lack of experience, while Gardiner is much less proven, is some how worth a lot to them.
What are you trying to argue? Both have limited experience = fact. CS hasn't proved he can be an above average goalie for 60 + games in a regular season. Schneider > Gardiner though not debatable. And yes... Gardiner is worth a lot to us just like any top prospect/young player is for any team.

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02-02-2013, 05:35 PM
  #167
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Quote:
Originally Posted by King Canuck View Post
Leafs fans are delusional, they call Schneider "unproven" and say his value will be affected due to his lack of experience, while Gardiner is much less proven, is some how worth a lot to them.
There isn't a player in the league who isn't affected by the amount of experience they have.

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Originally Posted by marty111 View Post
Well at least I see why we disagree. I think you are equating less games = weaker opponents.

However while Schneider has played less games then Luongo he's actually played top teams as well. He's putting great numbers against them in both the regular season AND the playoffs. We can also see this is evident this season as well.

So for me, playing a full 50-60 games is more of a mental and conditioning issue then it is a talent one.

I think you should watch him play more and you'll see that the quality of opponents and the weight of the games [i.e. playoffs] is of the heightest quality.

Maybe then you won't have so many doubts about his play that don't really make all that much sense IMO.
If AV was more confident in Schneider than Luongo, he would've played him in more games than he did Luongo. Just because you can pick and choose a couple of games that Schneider played against good teams, doesn't mean he faced the stronger subset of the opposition, on average.

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02-02-2013, 05:43 PM
  #168
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
If AV was more confident in Schneider than Luongo, he would've played him in more games than he did Luongo. Just because you can pick and choose a couple of games that Schneider played against good teams, doesn't mean he faced the stronger subset of the opposition, on average.
This is last I can say about it since I'm gearing up for Bruins at Leafs tonight.

(a) I never said on average he's played more tough opponents then Luongo but he has definitely faced top teams with regularity and looked excellent.

(b) Look no further then the playoffs last year. You know the thing that caused all the controversy and Luongo asking to be traded? Yeah that was AV picking CS for the biggest games of the year. And he started this season instead of Luongo. He has plenty of faith in him.

You can't have it both ways, (1ab) whoever starts is worth the most and the backup plays the weaker teams thus having lower value for both Roberto Luongo or Cory Schneider.

They happen to have two very good goaltenders who get played on hot streaks, hunches, whatever against the best of the best regardless.

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02-02-2013, 05:43 PM
  #169
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Originally Posted by marty111 View Post
Meh, Elliot has looked average on every team he's played for except for one season on Ken Hitchcock's St.Louis Blues. I think that has more to do with his JUMP in numbers.

Schneider has pretty much always had great numbers. Never faltered. And he plays on Vancouver who give up a lot more quality chances then the St. Louis Blues. Not a shot at Nucks fans, but their D isn't loaded with defensive stalwarts or anything. Some nights they look poor defensively.

Anyway, some of you guys have to do less stat watching [even with swiss cheese arguments] and look into the context of the situation to fully evaluate players. It helps by leaps and bounds I tell ya.
I don't think you have watched Elliot much to be honest. Elliot played well last season he made some amazing saves. His poor numbers were more to do with his teams in from of him then his talent level. Elliot was a good AHL goalie he was just brought into the NHL much earlier with very poor defensive teams.

If you compare Schneider and Elliots AHL and college numbers they have a lot more in common then you think.

Also the Canucks are a good defensive team so it helps a goalie when they have a good defense in from of them. Do you really think Schneider would have the same stats on a team like Toronto, Columbus, Calgary ect.

BTW I am in no way saying Elliot is better then Schneider or even equal to him they are just a lot more comparable then people think yet their perceived value is night and day different.

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02-02-2013, 05:47 PM
  #170
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Originally Posted by Dr Quincy View Post
If a narrative has been flipped it is by Canucks fans who have been telling us for years that Schneider's trade value is sky high. Then last summer it was Luongo's trade value that was through the roof. Now it's Schneider's turn again. Everyone else has said the same thing: the return on goalies will be a lot less than you think. But keep on believing that you are going to get a top line player or prospect and a high 1st and something else for one of them.

If the Canucks could have gotten such an offer for one of them, one of them would already be gone.


Here's a simple concept: They are both worth a lot because they are both #1's.


They haven't been dealt, so you don't know what they will garner. How about you just wait and see? Too difficult?

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02-02-2013, 05:49 PM
  #171
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Varlamov at the time of the trade: 59 NHL games, .916 sv%
Schneider right now: 72 NHL games, .928 sv%

?

EDIT: And Schneider stole the playoff job from Luongo, and put up a .960sv%, to counter your edit. Which is much harder than what Varlamov did.
And the Capitals were betting on the Avs giving them a lottery pick.

Avs offered Gillis the #11 pick in 2011 for Schneider and Gillis turned him down. There is no doubt he has become better since then.

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02-02-2013, 05:55 PM
  #172
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Pretty good chance that Vancouver rides with both goalies this season. Next season the cap goes down and they'll have to do something.

Then again, Luongo could always take off to Colorado and join a militia. Lookin' for Tim Thomas to get his tires pumped? Whatever.

That outta set things straight.


TOML

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02-02-2013, 06:07 PM
  #173
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Originally Posted by Wizeman View Post
And the Capitals were betting on the Avs giving them a lottery pick.

Avs offered Gillis the #11 pick in 2011 for Schneider and Gillis turned him down. There is no doubt he has become better since then.
He has become older and more expensive as well.

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02-02-2013, 06:13 PM
  #174
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Gardiner is underrated by alot of Canucks fans, as in some cases there is a clear Anti-Leaf bias that prevents fans from making a fair judgment of him.

But still:

Schneider >>>> Gardiner

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02-02-2013, 06:27 PM
  #175
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Typical nucks fans overreaction.
Man I love this team!


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