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02-05-2013, 12:18 PM
  #126
digdug41982
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Originally Posted by Illinihockey View Post
Last year in the playoffs, the Kings had 1 player over 50% of their top 4 faceoff guys and it was Stoll and he was only 51.8% The Penguins had 1 guy over 50% for their Cup win as well which was Crosby. The Bruins had one dominant guy (Bergeron 60.2%) and one decent guy Krecji (51.8%).

For comparison, last year in the playoffs you had Toews at 65% and Kruger at 51%. The Hawks are fine on the draw, most important faceoffs are going to be taken by Toews who is one of the top 3 faceoff guys in the league right now.
We need another center anyway. I think we all agree on that. So we pick up another center who is a faceoff specialist. Problem solved, everybody is happy. We really do need a 4th line center who is good defensively and does well on draws for when Toews can't take a big faceoff.

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02-05-2013, 12:25 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by Illinihockey View Post
Last year in the playoffs, the Kings had 1 player over 50% of their top 4 faceoff guys and it was Stoll and he was only 51.8% The Penguins had 1 guy over 50% for their Cup win as well which was Crosby. The Bruins had one dominant guy (Bergeron 60.2%) and one decent guy Krecji (51.8%).

For comparison, last year in the playoffs you had Toews at 65% and Kruger at 51%. The Hawks are fine on the draw, most important faceoffs are going to be taken by Toews who is one of the top 3 faceoff guys in the league right now.
There are obviously other factors involved as well. It sure helps when your goaltender is heading towards a Conn Smythe trophy. But you stick to those stats. If anyone read the link provided by MM, all that needs to be said is in there.

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02-05-2013, 12:30 PM
  #128
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There are obviously other factors involved as well. It sure helps when your goaltender is heading towards a Conn Smythe trophy. But you stick to those stats. If anyone read the link provided by MM, all that needs to be said is in there.
The take away from that article is:

"Winning faceoffs is one thing. Some faceoff statistics are just for show," former Kings coach Barry Melrose said at the time. "But Montreal won all the key draws -- on the power play, penalty killing and in the final minutes of a period ... or the game."

Guess who is taking most of those important draws for the Hawks? Its Toews, one of the best faceoff guys in the game. The other guy who takes draws but isn't very good is Bolland, but I think everyone can agree he's one of the better defensive forwards in the game. You don't take him off the ice because he loses a handfull of draws.

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02-05-2013, 12:38 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by coldsteelonice84 View Post
We need another center anyway. I think we all agree on that. So we pick up another center who is a faceoff specialist. Problem solved, everybody is happy. We really do need a 4th line center who is good defensively and does well on draws for when Toews can't take a big faceoff.
Somebody like Mayers?

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02-05-2013, 12:52 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by Illinihockey View Post
The take away from that article is:

"Winning faceoffs is one thing. Some faceoff statistics are just for show," former Kings coach Barry Melrose said at the time. "But Montreal won all the key draws -- on the power play, penalty killing and in the final minutes of a period ... or the game."

Guess who is taking most of those important draws for the Hawks? Its Toews, one of the best faceoff guys in the game. The other guy who takes draws but isn't very good is Bolland, but I think everyone can agree he's one of the better defensive forwards in the game. You don't take him off the ice because he loses a handfull of draws.
LOL. You’re a tough sell. You take from it what you will but in case you’re relying on stats alone (and it seems you are), Toews hasn’t been killing all the penalties. He gets on the PK, usually at the tail end of most of them, and it is Kruger and/or Bolland taking those key draws in our end of the rink for the bulk of the time on the PK. Guess the stats missed that one.

And when Melrose was talking about the face-offs that are strictly show, we have talked about that extensively as well. The neutral zone face-off wins pad the stats for the pretenders at the dot.

Next game, try watching carefully the key face-offs in our end. If the trend continues, you’ll be shocked at how many we lose cleanly.

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02-05-2013, 12:53 PM
  #131
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Originally Posted by Illinihockey View Post
The take away from that article is:

"Winning faceoffs is one thing. Some faceoff statistics are just for show," former Kings coach Barry Melrose said at the time. "But Montreal won all the key draws -- on the power play, penalty killing and in the final minutes of a period ... or the game."

Guess who is taking most of those important draws for the Hawks? Its Toews, one of the best faceoff guys in the game. The other guy who takes draws but isn't very good is Bolland, but I think everyone can agree he's one of the better defensive forwards in the game. You don't take him off the ice because he loses a handfull of draws.
So, it's essentially up to 19 to make it work? What about when you need a draw to setup an offensive opportunity? 19 again? and again and again?

Icing, JT can't come on. JT has the occasional penalty, can't take the draw. Just finished a shift, can't take the draw.

See the problem yet?

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02-05-2013, 12:56 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by DisgruntledHawkFan View Post
Somebody like Mayers?
At this stage in his career, Mayers is a good part time center. I think Q is utilizing him correctly. If he can stay healthy he will be a valuable asset come playoff time.

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02-05-2013, 01:04 PM
  #133
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So, it's essentially up to 19 to make it work? What about when you need a draw to setup an offensive opportunity? 19 again? and again and again?

Icing, JT can't come on. JT has the occasional penalty, can't take the draw. Just finished a shift, can't take the draw.

See the problem yet?
Yes, its up to Toews, he takes the vast majority of the offensive zone faceoffs.

Bolland takes the majority of the defensive zone faceoffs. His numbers the last 3 years have been 48.4%, 45.1%, 49.4%. He's not great at faceoffs, but he's not awful either.

Again, too much is being made of faceoffs. The Blues' top 2 guys last year both weren't over 50% for the season.

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02-05-2013, 01:11 PM
  #134
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Originally Posted by Illinihockey View Post
Yes, its up to Toews, he takes the vast majority of the offensive zone faceoffs.

Bolland takes the majority of the defensive zone faceoffs. His numbers the last 3 years have been 48.4%, 45.1%, 49.4%. He's not great at faceoffs, but he's not awful either.

Again, too much is being made of faceoffs. The Blues' top 2 guys last year both weren't over 50% for the season.
Somebody should let Tippett and all the other coaches know, they're just wasting their time. Face-offs, smaze-offs.

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02-05-2013, 01:26 PM
  #135
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Yikes i cant believe you guys are making this big a deal about faceoffs. No team in the NHL has long term success or failure in the regular season or playoffs based on faceoffs. Its important, but its not going to prevent a team from winning the cup

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02-05-2013, 01:36 PM
  #136
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Originally Posted by Illinihockey View Post
Yes, its up to Toews, he takes the vast majority of the offensive zone faceoffs.

Bolland takes the majority of the defensive zone faceoffs. His numbers the last 3 years have been 48.4%, 45.1%, 49.4%. He's not great at faceoffs, but he's not awful either.

Again, too much is being made of faceoffs. The Blues' top 2 guys last year both weren't over 50% for the season.
Bolland's PK face off % over that time is 43% and I bet it's worse if broken down to d-zone PK draws.

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02-05-2013, 01:39 PM
  #137
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Somebody like Mayers?
Yes but younger. I like Mayers. I like someone like Goc with Mayers standing him next to him a hell of a lot better.

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02-05-2013, 02:30 PM
  #138
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Yikes i cant believe you guys are making this big a deal about faceoffs. No team in the NHL has long term success or failure in the regular season or playoffs based on faceoffs. Its important, but its not going to prevent a team from winning the cup
It's OK if you don't understand the importance of faceoffs, but the statement you posted is blatantly false.

It is akin to saying that fielding errors in baseball are no big deal. They extend innings, put runners onbase or in scoring position, make a pitcher throw more pitches and result in many bad things happening, similar to poor faceoff performance.

No person with relatively highly competitive hockey experience as a player or coach will agree with your position on faceoffs, actually they have the opposite view.

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02-05-2013, 02:41 PM
  #139
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Toews hasn’t been killing all the penalties. He gets on the PK, usually at the tail end of most of them, and it is Kruger and/or Bolland taking those key draws in our end of the rink for the bulk of the time on the PK. Guess the stats missed that one.
Toews is 3rd in PK time/game this season from forwards. Kruger and Frolik are the primary killers and then Toews comes out. He seems to average a little under 2 minutes per game on the kill the past several years, this year he aveages 2:06. Its not like he's not out there.

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02-05-2013, 03:09 PM
  #140
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Originally Posted by Marotte Marauder View Post
It's OK if you don't understand the importance of faceoffs, but the statement you posted is blatantly false.

It is akin to saying that fielding errors in baseball are no big deal. They extend innings, put runners onbase or in scoring position, make a pitcher throw more pitches and result in many bad things happening, similar to poor faceoff performance.

No person with relatively highly competitive hockey experience as a player or coach will agree with your position on faceoffs, actually they have the opposite view.
I'm not saying faceoffs are irrelevant, I'm saying they aren't crucial to long term success. Every aspect of an NHL game has importance. Faceoff dominance would be a nice luxury but not having doesnt mean this team is doomed for a 1st round exit again

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02-05-2013, 03:15 PM
  #141
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Face-offs are great, but definitely not the be all end all of a season. New Jersey made it to the cup final with the 2nd worst face-off % in the league last year, LA was only slightly above 50%. Out of all the conference finalists last year, not one team aside from LA, finished in the top half of the league in FO%.

Ya, it helps, but it's not going to make or break a season.

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02-05-2013, 03:20 PM
  #142
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Face-offs are great, but definitely not the be all end all of a season. New Jersey made it to the cup final with the 2nd worst face-off % in the league last year, LA was only slightly above 50%. Out of all the conference finalists last year, not one team aside from LA, finished in the top half of the league in FO%.

Ya, it helps, but it's not going to make or break a season.
Thank you

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02-05-2013, 03:22 PM
  #143
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Originally Posted by Hawkaholic View Post
Face-offs are great, but definitely not the be all end all of a season. New Jersey made it to the cup final with the 2nd worst face-off % in the league last year, LA was only slightly above 50%. Out of all the conference finalists last year, not one team aside from LA, finished in the top half of the league in FO%.

Ya, it helps, but it's not going to make or break a season.
But it easily could, is the point. Some folks have such a superficial idea of what this game is all about. They like to kid MM about his “game within the game” comments but he is right. There is a lot more detail to any game than the highlights we see on the tube. It is very easy to miss the subtleties that often make the difference between a good shift and a bad shift, a successful team and a mediocre one. Winning face-offs, is not even in that category. It is a fundamental, and yet so many question it’s importance.

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02-05-2013, 03:26 PM
  #144
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But it easily could, is the point. Some folks have such a superficial idea of what this game is all about. They like to kid MM about his “game within the game” comments but he is right. There is a lot more detail to any game than the highlights we see on the tube. It is very easy to miss the subtleties that often make the difference between a good shift and a bad shift, a successful team and a mediocre one. Winning face-offs, is not even in that category. It is a fundamental, and yet so many question it’s importance.
It could, a lot of things could. No one is arguing we'd prefer Bolland lose a lot of faceoffs, but his ability to harass and dispossess the opposing offense off sets whatever deficiencies he has at the dot.

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02-05-2013, 03:40 PM
  #145
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I've always wanted a winger that is good on faceoffs to play with Bolland. We'd be set then. To his credit, he was an abomination his first few years with the Hawks and has gotten a lot better since Toews came aboard.

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02-05-2013, 03:41 PM
  #146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobbyJet View Post
But it easily could, is the point. Some folks have such a superficial idea of what this game is all about. They like to kid MM about his “game within the game” comments but he is right. There is a lot more detail to any game than the highlights we see on the tube. It is very easy to miss the subtleties that often make the difference between a good shift and a bad shift, a successful team and a mediocre one. Winning face-offs, is not even in that category. It is a fundamental, and yet so many question it’s importance.
Nobody is questioning the fact that winning faceoffs is a good thing. What people are saying is that being poor at it is not what will cost us a cup.

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02-05-2013, 03:43 PM
  #147
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At the same time, faceoffs are one of the few cheap to acquire moves we can make. It would be dumb not to bring in someone, even if only a 4th line C.

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02-05-2013, 03:45 PM
  #148
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I've always wanted a winger that is good on faceoffs to play with Bolland. We'd be set then. To his credit, he was an abomination his first few years with the Hawks and has gotten a lot better since Toews came aboard.
Sharp is a consistent 48-52% guy at the dot. Bolland should jump more draws.

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02-05-2013, 03:48 PM
  #149
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Sharp is a consistent 48-52% guy at the dot. Bolland should jump more draws.
I don't see it as much with NHL teams but yeah, I don't know why you wouldn't utilize Sharp on draws if Bolland is centering him. I know that coaches want everyone in position to play their positions defensively but still, I don't think that outweighs the benefits of winnng more draws, especially on a team like this.

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02-05-2013, 04:23 PM
  #150
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When you're a finesse, puck possession team like the Hawks, winning face offs become very important. The Hawks depend on their puck possession to win games. If you don't win face offs, you can't play the puck possession game. The Hawks lose to many face offs in their own end on the pk and then get tired out running around chasing the puck. The same goes with offense on the pp. You lose the face off, you end up going back to your own end to retrieve the puck wasting precious pp time. What I don't understand is that Toews is probably the best in the league at face offs but none of the other centers on the team seem to be learning anything from him.

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