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02-05-2013, 09:57 PM
  #1
The Nose
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Mike Babcock

I know there are a bunch of threads but I thought it would be nice one to be based solely on Mike Babcock.

I'm not sure what he's thinking this year. I'm not going to crucify him because its only 9 games in, but his decisions this year have left me thinking he's an average NHL coach at best. Here are the decisions I've mainly questioned:

1. Starting the season with Datsyuk and Zetterberg on the same line. It hasn't worked for 3 years, so why would it suddenly work now? Especially when it would leave you with Filppula as your second line center. Thankfully he realized it wasn't working.

2. Danny Cleary. I think its safe to say he is the worst player on the Wings roster, by a fair margin. But apparently Babcock thinks otherwise as he is skating over 16 minutes a night and playing both the PP and PK. I don't know what Babs loves about Cleary and its really gone too far.

3. Jordan Tootoo. What else does the guy have to do to earn solid TOI? He's been the best bottom-six skater by a mile. Sure he hasn't scored yet but its tough when your playing with 4th line players and 4th line minutes. Tootoo is leaving it on the ice every night, something a lot of the other guys could learn.

4. The Smith-Quincey pairing. Pretty much all I have to say. The fact he actually thought this would work before the season and has continually stuck with it leads me to believe he just doesn't give a ****.

Those are just 4 of the countless complaints I have about Babcock so far this season. I don't know what's wrong with the management of this team but I truly believe their stubbornness has lead us to this point.

And please, I made this thread to discuss Mike Babcock and his decisions this year. Please leave off-topic discussions in their suitable thread. Thanks guys.


EDIT: Just to clarify, I do not want Babcock fired. I am just confused by his decision-making thus far.


Last edited by The Nose: 02-05-2013 at 10:34 PM.
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02-05-2013, 09:58 PM
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He might be sick of coaching the Wings. Even the best chef can't turn **** into a steak dinner without the right ingredients.

He is the only good thing the Wings have left (long term) and it would be devastating if they lose him.

I think the fact that he is playing Cleary is absurd. The Quincey/Smith pairing is insane. Either he is doing it on purpose so he can get fired or he sees something we dont.

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02-05-2013, 09:59 PM
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I question some of the decisions he makes based on his bias for certain players just as much as anyone else, but to call him an "average NHL coach at best" is completely ridiculous and not accurate.

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02-05-2013, 10:04 PM
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I question some of the decisions he makes based on his bias for certain players just as much as anyone else, but to call him an "average NHL coach at best" is completely ridiculous and not accurate.
I shouldve clarified. Hes an elite coach no doubt, but this year his decisions have been that of am average coach, at best.

Sure his roster isn't great. But he isn't using it to its greatest ability whatsoever.

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02-05-2013, 10:05 PM
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Yeah, I'm not going to blame too much of this on Babs. He's got no defense, two lines, and no offseason.

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02-05-2013, 10:09 PM
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My biggest complaint is Cleary playing 16+ minutes a night. He can play 4th line minutes and be a substitute to the PK if a PKer takes a penalty.

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02-05-2013, 10:11 PM
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Yeah, I'm not going to blame too much of this on Babs. He's got no defense, two lines, and no offseason.
Fire Babcock if it'll make a difference, but what coach can win with this team? What direction is this team going? This entire season is on Ken Holland.

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02-05-2013, 10:12 PM
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I'm not happy with his decisions this season and have never particularly liked how he decides who "deserves" ice time and who doesn't.

But having said that, I'm not ready to give up on him, particularly when we're at a crucial stage in the evolution of our core. I think the bigger problem is simply that this roster is stale, too insecure on the back-end, and not designed for any effective NHL system.

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02-05-2013, 10:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Nose View Post
I shouldve clarified. Hes an elite coach no doubt, but this year his decisions have been that of am average coach, at best.

Sure his roster isn't great. But he isn't using it to its greatest ability whatsoever.
What does this even mean? Is playing Tatar on the 1st line really using it to its greatest ability? He's got nothing to work with. This team has trended downwards for years. Babcock may be an issue - so fire him - the team still has little talent.

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02-05-2013, 10:25 PM
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There are rumors for the last couple years he has lost the dressing room. Did find it interesting that both Hank and Babcock stressed they had a good relationship, while they get angry with each other the communication is open.

If people don't want to defend Holland with his sterling track record, Babs should be taken to task in the same fashion. They both are having trouble adapting, I trust both their hockeyminds and think they will pull through and come up with answers. But some of their decisions are head scratching.

It is also worth pointing out the guys he has brought in behind the bench have failed him to some degree. He had a much better support team to go with those better players that is also a factor. If Holland won't give him any say than I sort of understand some of this, but once the game starts he can play whatever he has around and his decisions have been pretty questionable. He seems to have bought in hook line and sinker to the company policies. Where is the greasy goals guy, more sand paper and some of the other stuff he used to do? He now drives that same puck management message to a much higher degree, because it brought him success. But the truth was it was the blending of a harder style when he first came on board, this team plays passive perimeter hockey a lot. He was a bigger fan of benching some guys in the start of his tenure, but he has bought into that same country club attitude many have said exists. He has favorites and it shows, now a couple of them are trouble points. If he treated Clearly like he did Hudler it would at least look consistent.

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02-05-2013, 10:25 PM
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Is there any other coach available that could take this jumbled mess and turn it into anything better? I highly doubt it. You may ne able to get s short term bump in play bringing in a new coach but long term it would be pointless.

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02-05-2013, 10:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Heaton View Post
What does this even mean? Is playing Tatar on the 1st line really using it to its greatest ability? He's got nothing to work with. This team has trended downwards for years. Babcock may be an issue - so fire him - the team still has little talent.
Huh? I don't think Tatar should play on the first line. I don't mind having veterans in the lineup either. And I'm aware that KH controls who is on the roster. But playing Dan Cleary 16+ minutes a night when a guy like Tootoo is playing around 10 isn't using your roster to its fullest ability. Not to mention some of the defensive pairings.

And just to clarify my OP: I don't want Babcock fired. I just don't understand his decision-making thus far.

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02-05-2013, 10:44 PM
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He'll be unemployed for about 12 seconds, and he'll coach another team to the Cup. He's a great coach who currently doesn't have much to work with.

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02-05-2013, 11:00 PM
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What I don't understand, if a guy like Tootoo is hitting and making things happen. Why not give him more playing time and have him play on the first line if things aren't working? Instead of playing Cleary who hasn't done much.

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02-05-2013, 11:08 PM
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Babcock is using Tootoo like an enforcer. I don't really care for it. Fighting in the heat of the moment or for a teammate is one thing, but I think it's kind of getting old seeing him drop the gloves every time he's lined up against another fighter. Let him be an energy player first. He can skate a little bit and loves hitting, so let him play because the bottom 6 literally could not be less effective.

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02-05-2013, 11:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Nose View Post
I know there are a bunch of threads but I thought it would be nice one to be based solely on Mike Babcock.

I'm not sure what he's thinking this year. I'm not going to crucify him because its only 9 games in, but his decisions this year have left me thinking he's an average NHL coach at best. Here are the decisions I've mainly questioned:

1. Starting the season with Datsyuk and Zetterberg on the same line. It hasn't worked for 3 years, so why would it suddenly work now? Especially when it would leave you with Filppula as your second line center. Thankfully he realized it wasn't working.
And then he separated them, so they've played less of the season together than they were together.

What's your point?

Quote:
2. Danny Cleary. I think its safe to say he is the worst player on the Wings roster, by a fair margin. But apparently Babcock thinks otherwise as he is skating over 16 minutes a night and playing both the PP and PK. I don't know what Babs loves about Cleary and its really gone too far.
It's a GM decision for starters, plus he's not in the top six. He's fine as a bottom six guy. What should one expect from the bottom six?

Quote:
3. Jordan Tootoo. What else does the guy have to do to earn solid TOI? He's been the best bottom-six skater by a mile. Sure he hasn't scored yet but its tough when your playing with 4th line players and 4th line minutes. Tootoo is leaving it on the ice every night, something a lot of the other guys could learn.
Which is the job he was brought in to do. Maybe we should be happy there's a guy filling his role very well.


Quote:
4. The Smith-Quincey pairing. Pretty much all I have to say. The fact he actually thought this would work before the season and has continually stuck with it leads me to believe he just doesn't give a ****.
You're kvetching about a pairing that was starting to solidify, and with Smith now out for the two last games? Can I ask you why you brought this up after THIS game?

Kronwall was -2, E -1, Huskins and Q were 0.

How long ago did you write this post?

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02-05-2013, 11:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
And then he separated them, so they've played less of the season together than they were together.

What's your point?



It's a GM decision for starters, plus he's not in the top six. He's fine as a bottom six guy. What should one expect from the bottom six?



Which is the job he was brought in to do. Maybe we should be happy there's a guy filling his role very well.




You're kvetching about a pairing that was starting to solidify, and with Smith now out for the two last games? Can I ask you why you brought this up after THIS game?

Kronwall was -2, E -1, Huskins and Q were 0.

How long ago did you write this post?
Funny I actually wrote it tonight just like it says.

Well my problem with Cleary is exactly what I posted. He's the worst player on the entire roster yet getting 16+ minutes a night with PP and PK roles. Just because he's a bottom-six player doesn't make his ineffectiveness a wash. Remember last year during our home winning streak when the third and fourth lines were producing? That just goes to show how impactful the bottom-six can be. I don't blame Babcock for having a struggling bottom-six without Helm but you can blame him for playing Cleary so much when a guy like Tootoo is playing so well.

Sure the Smith-Quincey played two decent games recently. But in the majority of the games so far they have been lead contributors in the losses. And so far this year Quincey hasn't proven he's reliable defensively yet Babs is pairing him with our rookie offensive-minded defenseman.

I wrote this tonight because were 20% of the way through the season and our team is a mess. Admittedly, Babcock demoting Tatar to the third-line kind of pushed me over the edge tonight. But this has been a reoccurring problem all year.

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02-05-2013, 11:38 PM
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[...] or he sees something we dont.
/thread

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02-06-2013, 01:04 AM
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if anyone needs to go, its holland. he keeps kids in the minors too long and is scared to death of spending too much on free agents or making trades because of the cap. instead he'll sit back and watch this team disintegrate. Scotty Bowman was pretty much running the team before he left anyway.

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02-06-2013, 01:57 AM
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if anyone needs to go, its holland. he keeps kids in the minors too long and is scared to death of spending too much on free agents or making trades because of the cap. instead he'll sit back and watch this team disintegrate. Scotty Bowman was pretty much running the team before he left anyway.
Bowman lost all of his executive power before the 97 season... Even when he had power he split it three ways with Devellano and Holland. Which begs the question, the people around the team decided to promote which guys and why? Holland was the lead scout from the 80's into the 90's before assuming the GM post in the three headed decisions.

Bowman's GM tenures and front office gigs are far from substantially backed up. He was terrible in Buffalo. He is a great coach but people that believe this notion of Scotty Bowman the genious front office guy make laugh.

He could have done a lot, but I doubt it, the evidence of titles and who has stayed in charge with massive amounts of faith suggest otherwise. Don't forget his issues with Yzerman upon taking charge were believed to have triggered a deal that Devellano would later kill.

Bowman's most celebrated move is usually the Shanahan trade. Interestingly Holland was for it himself.

Quote:
The Ilitches were in their 15th season of ownership when general manager Ken Holland and coach Scotty Bowman recommended a trade.
http://redwings.nhl.com/club/news.htm?id=506567

Notice that trade actually went down when Scotty had lost power, yes he would like the player but this is actually one of Holland's first moves as Detroit GM. It is his stamp on the team, Bowman's first idea was to move Yzerman.... Just saying it is interesting how that has gone over much different over the years. Bowman for sure has a great hockey mind, but checks have been put in place because it does misfire from time to time. When he truly ran the show with total autonomy was in Buffalo, not the greatest moment of his storied hockey career.

I don't think either Ken Holland or Mike Babcock should be in any danger. What they need to do is get on the same page and get a more aggressive game plan going together. Neither guy became an idiot over night, they are smart hockey people and very good at the role each is in with proven track records. They deserve a couple years to figure this out because the replacements are unlikely to come close to what both bring to the table. People can be frustrated that is fine, but wanting either guy gone right now is a bit much.

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02-06-2013, 04:39 AM
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As long as the coach doesn't lose his core players, it's not the coach IMO. There's only so much he can do.

But if there are some things that could be put on him:
-His team doesn't come to play hard every night. The best players usually do, but too many floaters behind them. I've not see him hold players accountable enough, this year or last. Again, you can only do so much.

-Danny Cleary. Holland gives him the players, but it's Babs who keeps putting him out there at every possible scenario. Cleary skates and skates, but that's it. Most plays die on his stick, and there's uncertainty whether he would even score on an empty net at this point. He needs to realize that this is a player who can eat up some 5on5 minutes with moderate success, not some special teams hero.

-Tootoo. He finally gets a player who can bring a spark to this team on a shift to shift basis, and he barely uses him. Every player doesn't need to have a scoring touch to get ice time, and Tootoo is a perfect example of such player. He finishes checks, he plays hard, the crowd gets into it when he's on the ice. USE HIM!

-Call-up line juggling. You want to slot a rookie into the line-up? Then make up your freaking mind where to play him and then keep him there. It's tough without chemistry to start with, let alone switching to another line mid game. When I watch other teams, they slot a guy into a line and keep him there. It usually pays off in the end.

Bottom line though, the personnel issues are out of his job description.

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02-06-2013, 11:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Zetterberg Era View Post
Bowman lost all of his executive power before the 97 season... Even when he had power he split it three ways with Devellano and Holland. Which begs the question, the people around the team decided to promote which guys and why? Holland was the lead scout from the 80's into the 90's before assuming the GM post in the three headed decisions.

Bowman's GM tenures and front office gigs are far from substantially backed up. He was terrible in Buffalo. He is a great coach but people that believe this notion of Scotty Bowman the genious front office guy make laugh.

He could have done a lot, but I doubt it, the evidence of titles and who has stayed in charge with massive amounts of faith suggest otherwise. Don't forget his issues with Yzerman upon taking charge were believed to have triggered a deal that Devellano would later kill.

Bowman's most celebrated move is usually the Shanahan trade. Interestingly Holland was for it himself.



http://redwings.nhl.com/club/news.htm?id=506567

Notice that trade actually went down when Scotty had lost power, yes he would like the player but this is actually one of Holland's first moves as Detroit GM. It is his stamp on the team, Bowman's first idea was to move Yzerman.... Just saying it is interesting how that has gone over much different over the years. Bowman for sure has a great hockey mind, but checks have been put in place because it does misfire from time to time. When he truly ran the show with total autonomy was in Buffalo, not the greatest moment of his storied hockey career.

I don't think either Ken Holland or Mike Babcock should be in any danger. What they need to do is get on the same page and get a more aggressive game plan going together. Neither guy became an idiot over night, they are smart hockey people and very good at the role each is in with proven track records. They deserve a couple years to figure this out because the replacements are unlikely to come close to what both bring to the table. People can be frustrated that is fine, but wanting either guy gone right now is a bit much.

Honestly, I think it was the combination of the two that made for great trades and roster moves. Bowman was aggressive and good at identifying missing ingredients, or just where players fit. Holland was bolder with Scotty around, imo, and his contract offers seemed to make more sense.

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02-06-2013, 11:49 AM
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Honestly, I think it was the combination of the two that made for great trades and roster moves. Bowman was aggressive and good at identifying missing ingredients, or just where players fit. Holland was bolder with Scotty around, imo, and his contract offers seemed to make more sense.
It was also a completely different era of hockey when it came to team management, contracts and the like. Holland has obviously made some adjustments (not trading picks), but I'm not sure that if Scotty 2.0 came along as coach that he would make Holland a better GM today in the salary cap, post 04/05 lockout era.

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02-06-2013, 12:01 PM
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Guys like Tootoo, Nyquist, Tatar, guys that keep their legs moving the whole time on the ice aren't being played because it goes against Ken Holland and Babcock's MO of playing the grizzled veterans on the off-chance they return to the form they haven't been at for a long time.

Tatar's puck control looked amazing last night. TO THE 3rd LINE WITH GATOR AND CLEARY YOU GO. Go get 'em Beartuzzi! Do your shoot-out thang!

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02-06-2013, 12:11 PM
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Guys like Tootoo, Nyquist, Tatar, guys that keep their legs moving the whole time on the ice aren't being played because it goes against Ken Holland and Babcock's MO of playing the grizzled veterans on the off-chance they return to the form they haven't been at for a long time.

Tatar's puck control looked amazing last night. TO THE 3rd LINE WITH GATOR AND CLEARY YOU GO. Go get 'em Beartuzzi! Do your shoot-out thang!
Here's the thing about that, who cares? Isn't the biggest issue that our bottom 6 isn't contributing AT ALL? So, if Tatar can create offense, why not use him on the 3rd line? Bertuzzi is just another blackhole there.

How do we fix the bottom 6 offensive problems if we don't try putting players there who CAN generate something offensively?

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