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Old
02-02-2013, 04:02 PM
  #151
gogasson
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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
I think Bort-Engo has a lot more similarity to Gil Scuds than Niskanen ever will.
Got to wait a while to see more of Bort, but the sacrifice that Nisky is willing to offer with the blocked shots reminds me of Scuds.

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02-02-2013, 04:02 PM
  #152
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- Steigy. Mistaking Andy Greene for Dainius Zubrus. And for referring to Potash, as DJ Po.

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02-02-2013, 04:02 PM
  #153
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I'd be happy just swapping Maatta for Rattie since we're talking about the Blues...

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02-02-2013, 04:03 PM
  #154
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Originally Posted by MtlPenFan View Post
If you actually think we have enough skill without a trade, then I don't even know why I bother coming around here anymore.

Do you not notice Dupuis and Kunitz butcher every pass that comes there way? Do you not see instances where Kunitz has Sid for a clear break and decides to put his head down and fire? Do you not see where Sid is again wide open as Exile points out earlier, and it takes Dupuis forever to even realize he's there?

Straight line players can only play one way. "Controlling the puck and moving the puck" involves actual skill and vision. There's no scheme where Pascal Dupuis is able to fend off a defender, or look one off and make a 5 foot pass. And there certainly isn't one where Dupuis is the recipient of a pass like that and will be able to take anyone on 1 on 1. If you truly believe there's another way for these guys to play hockey, then I'm sorry but you don't understand what you're watching.

And yes, your best players playing like your best players, especially when they take up about 1/4 of your cap space which eliminates vital depth, will win you games. It's not a novel concept.


Tampa will not win if St.Louis and Stamkos aren't playing up to their capabilities.
Chicago will not win without Kane and Toews doing the same
Vancouver with the twins
Philly without Giroux and Briere

..................................................
Who's saying the Pens have enough skill in the top six?

And, if the bolded part is not a novel concept, then why are we right back to the 2010 model of Geno getting 18 minutes a game unless the Pens are behind going into the third?

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02-02-2013, 04:04 PM
  #155
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Who's saying the Pens have enough skill in the top six?
The Chancellor [SAID we have enough skill to at least try and vary our offensive game a little, not that we have enough in general. I feel shame for misattributing ideas to him.]


Last edited by Darth Vitale: 02-02-2013 at 04:09 PM.
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Old
02-02-2013, 04:06 PM
  #156
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The Chancellor [has been wronged]
Also known as ChiChi Vitale, the Italian Prince


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Old
02-02-2013, 04:07 PM
  #157
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Originally Posted by MtlPenFan View Post
The Chancellor [has been misunderstood]
Well, I think you know that atleast I disagree with that.

What I agree with from a coaching perspective are the critiques of the breakout and the PP.

I'm also a little wary of the decision to cut Malkin's minutes again. It may not matter regular season, but even you said you ride your best players. By that measure, Bylsma thinks Malkin's value is closer to Kunitz and Dupuis than to Crosby.

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02-02-2013, 04:07 PM
  #158
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Originally Posted by gogasson View Post
Got to wait a while to see more of Bort, but the sacrifice that Nisky is willing to offer with the blocked shots reminds me of Scuds.
I like Niskanen, but I just think he's the most expendable of our guys with real NHL value. As far as waiting to see more from Bortuzzo, I don't disagree but personally I would take the risk of a shaky 3rd pairing if it means we get the winger we need.
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Originally Posted by SprootsMasterFlex View Post
I'd be happy just swapping Maatta for Rattie since we're talking about the Blues...
Who is Rattie?

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Old
02-02-2013, 04:08 PM
  #159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MtlPenFan View Post
If you actually think we have enough skill without a trade, then I don't even know why I bother coming around here anymore.

Do you not notice Dupuis and Kunitz butcher every pass that comes there way? Do you not see instances where Kunitz has Sid for a clear break and decides to put his head down and fire? Do you not see where Sid is again wide open as Exile points out earlier, and it takes Dupuis forever to even realize he's there?

Straight line players can only play one way. "Controlling the puck and moving the puck" involves actual skill and vision. There's no scheme where Pascal Dupuis is able to fend off a defender, or look one off and make a 5 foot pass. And there certainly isn't one where Dupuis is the recipient of a pass like that and will be able to take anyone on 1 on 1. If you truly believe there's another way for these guys to play hockey, then I'm sorry but you don't understand what you're watching.

No need to get dramatic about it.

All I'm talking about is making smart passes and trying to move the puck with the help of our D as well, not just a low-cycle-and-grind game. I do get your point and I know that pretty much all of our wingers not named Neal are ham-fisted passers / shooters, but they're not so retarded as to be unable to involve the D (most of whom are decent passers and good skaters) in the offensive possession game for example.

That's all I'm talking about. Not some complicated Soviet Era offensive system that relies heavily on skill at every position, just move the damn puck around the boards (whatever you have to do) to get the D involved a little more, spread things out a little more.

Whether at the beginning of a zone possession or moving it out for a shot from the point... there has to be more than this collapse on the puck behind the net and hope we don't lose it crap.

I'm also not saying we don't need more skill on the wings / replace some of our wings. We obviously do and I've said so many times. But for what I'm talking about, an upgrade to freakin' Corey Perry or Ryane Clowe should not be a requirement for doing a better job of making the offense a little less predictable / more fluid in terms of who's taking the shots, where they're coming from, etc.

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02-02-2013, 04:10 PM
  #160
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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
I like Niskanen, but I just think he's the most expendable of our guys with real NHL value. As far as waiting to see more from Bortuzzo, I don't disagree but personally I would take the risk of a shaky 3rd pairing if it means we get the winger we need.

Who is Rattie?
Don't get my afinity for Niskanen wrong, every player is expendable for the right price. And I think that what Nisky brings, he would attract alot of attention. Maybe I just have a thing for defensive defensmen.

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02-02-2013, 04:10 PM
  #161
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
Well, I think you know that atleast I disagree with that.

What I agree with from a coaching perspective are the critiques of the breakout and the PP.

I'm also a little wary of the decision to cut Malkin's minutes again. It may not matter regular season, but even you said you ride your best players. By that measure, Bylsma thinks Malkin's value is closer to Kunitz and Dupuis than to Crosby.
Disco hates using Geno in defensive situations. Meanwhile he puts Sid out to take a lot of important face-offs. I think that's the big reason for the ToI different. This is all based on the eye test and I have no support from numbers like zone start percentages or anything

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02-02-2013, 04:10 PM
  #162
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Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale View Post
No need to get dramatic about it.

All I'm talking about is making smart passes and trying to move the puck with the help of our D as well, not just a low-cycle-and-grind game. I do get your point and I know that pretty much all of our wingers not named Neal are ham-fisted passers / shooters, but they're not so retarded as to be unable to involve the D (most of whom are decent passers and good skaters) in the offensive possession game for example.

That's all I'm talking about. Not some complicated Soviet Era offensive system that relies heavily on skill at every position, just move the damn puck around the boards (whatever you have to do) to get the D involved a little more, spread things out a little more.

Whether at the beginning of a zone possession or moving it out for a shot from the point... there has to be more than this collapse on the puck behind the net and hope we don't lose it crap.

I'm also not saying we don't need more skill on the wings / replace some of our wings. We obviously do and I've said so many times. But for what I'm talking about, an upgrade to freakin' Corey Perry or Ryane Clowe should not be a requirement for doing a better job of making the offense a little less predictable / more fluid in terms of who's taking the shots, where they're coming from, etc.
Apparently, it is . . .

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Old
02-02-2013, 04:10 PM
  #163
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Originally Posted by MtlPenFan View Post
If you actually think we have enough skill without a trade, then I don't even know why I bother coming around here anymore.

Do you not notice Dupuis and Kunitz butcher every pass that comes there way? Do you not see instances where Kunitz has Sid for a clear break and decides to put his head down and fire? Do you not see where Sid is again wide open as Exile points out earlier, and it takes Dupuis forever to even realize he's there?

Straight line players can only play one way. "Controlling the puck and moving the puck" involves actual skill and vision. There's no scheme where Pascal Dupuis is able to fend off a defender, or look one off and make a 5 foot pass. And there certainly isn't one where Dupuis is the recipient of a pass like that and will be able to take anyone on 1 on 1. If you truly believe there's another way for these guys to play hockey, then I'm sorry but you don't understand what you're watching.

And yes, your best players playing like your best players, especially when they take up about 1/4 of your cap space which eliminates vital depth, will win you games. It's not a novel concept.

Tampa will not win if St.Louis and Stamkos aren't playing up to their capabilities.
Chicago will not win without Kane and Toews doing the same
Vancouver with the twins
Philly without Giroux and Briere

..................................................
Yes, exactly this.

When you have the 2 best players in the game, and are paying them 9 mil a piece, you expect "god mode" the majority of the time. That is why they get paid the way they do. Same can go for Flower. You pick a goalie #1 overall because you anticipate him stealing games for you.

How many games, even cups, have NJ won over the past 20 years because Marty went "god mode"?

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Old
02-02-2013, 04:12 PM
  #164
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Don't get my afinity for Niskanen wrong, every player is expendable for the right price. And I think that what Nisky brings, he would attract alot of attention. Maybe I just have a thing for defensive defensmen.
I like them too. I don't really look at Niskanen as a defensive defenseman. Not in the way Bortuzzo is.

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02-02-2013, 04:12 PM
  #165
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Disco hates using Geno in defensive situations. Meanwhile he puts Sid out to take a lot of important face-offs. I think that's the big reason for the ToI different.
He didn't mind using him last year.

But, that's when he needed him to play huge in all situations. Now that Sid's back, he doesn't.

For those of us who wonder if Bylsma knows how to coach a team with both Crosby and Malkin healthy (and I've definitely always been one of them), it's telling . . . as it's always been.

Maybe it doesn't matter. Maybe it will when the playoffs come.

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02-02-2013, 04:13 PM
  #166
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Originally Posted by Ogelthorpe View Post
Yes, exactly this.

When you have the 2 best players in the game, and are paying them 9 mil a piece, you expect "god mode" the majority of the time. That is why they get paid the way they do. Same can go for Flower. You pick a goalie #1 overall because you anticipate him stealing games for you.

How many games, even cups, have NJ won over the past 20 years because Marty went "god mode"?
If Bylsma expects god mode from Malkin, then why are Malkin's minutes closer to Kunitz and Dupuis than to Crosby?

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02-02-2013, 04:14 PM
  #167
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
He didn't mind using him last year.

But, that's when he needed him to play huge in all situations. Now that Sid's back, he doesn't.

For those of us who wonder if Bylsma knows how to coach a team with both Crosby and Malkin healthy (and I've definitely always been one of them), it's telling . . . as it's always been.

Maybe it doesn't matter. Maybe it will when the playoffs come.
I don't disagree. Just pointing out what I think causes it.

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02-02-2013, 04:15 PM
  #168
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I don't disagree. Just pointing out what I think causes it.
Oh, I agree with what you say the cause is.

I'm just asking what it says about a coach who doesn't trust one of his 8.7M per season players?

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02-02-2013, 04:15 PM
  #169
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He actually got a narrow win/draw if anything. Engelland is a far better fighter than Bortuzzo.
I could be thinking of another fight, but Bort threw a haymaker at Mirasty and lost his balance, then Mirasty fell on him and rubbed him out.

He had a decent fight awhile back with Sharp who is like a buck eighty and Bort was falling down throwing haymakers again.

Bort will go if he has to with anyone... He had like eight or nine fights his rookie year, then about a dozen the last couple.

But again, he isn't a brawler... At all.

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02-02-2013, 04:15 PM
  #170
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
If Bylsma expects god mode from Malkin, then why are Malkin's minutes closer to Kunitz and Dupuis than to Crosby?
question, did his minutes drop after the shorty? That was a pretty lazy play. Disco had to be fuming. Or has this been all year? I've only seen 4 games.

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02-02-2013, 04:16 PM
  #171
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Oh, I agree with what you say the cause is.

I'm just asking what it says about a coach who doesn't trust one of his 8.7M per season players?
nothing good

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02-02-2013, 04:18 PM
  #172
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If Bylsma expects god mode from Malkin, then why are Malkin's minutes closer to Kunitz and Dupuis than to Crosby?
Barely. Malkin still had the second most minutes out of all of our forwards. We've been playing with a lead these past couple games, Sutter and our grinding lines have been getting a couple more minutes.

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02-02-2013, 04:20 PM
  #173
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question, did his minutes drop after the shorty? That was a pretty lazy play. Disco had to be fuming. Or has this been all year? I've only seen 4 games.
That did not bother me so much because he was gassed. What bothered me more was the complete fail at the attempted keepin in at the blue line where he threw is body on the ice and missed the puck to cause a odd man rush in the opposite direction.

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02-02-2013, 04:26 PM
  #174
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Geno played 17 1/2 minutes in a 4-goal win. Second-most amongst forwards.

Sure, Sid got the most minutes, but he was also their best player today.

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02-02-2013, 04:30 PM
  #175
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question, did his minutes drop after the shorty? That was a pretty lazy play. Disco had to be fuming. Or has this been all year? I've only seen 4 games.
No, his minutes actually stayed the same.

We're you actually about to suggest that Bylsma was holding someone accountable?

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