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Performance Enhancing Drugs in the NHL?

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Old
02-02-2013, 05:54 PM
  #51
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The main reasons why a NHL player would use PED's

-Increase endurance
-Rapidly decrease recovery time

As others have stated, It's not likely for NHL players to be shooting anabolic steroids into themselves because large amounts of muscle mass isn't really needed in this sport. What a NHL player would use is possibly HGH to reduce recovery time from injury/sore muscles etc.

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02-02-2013, 05:55 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Islander102 View Post
I never got the big deal about this. These are pro athletes. I watch them to be entertained, not to be role models. I don't care if hockey players use them, just as I don't care if baseball or football players use them. Its their life, it's just my entertainment. I like watching hockey, I don't consider myself morality judge over the players.
I agree that Pro sports is all about entertainment, its a business........BUT my only problem is with the record book and how the old greats of the game are viewed for what records they achieved compared to records of today..

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02-02-2013, 05:56 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by ThirdManIn View Post
Oh and leave players' names out of this. Unless there is documented and reliable evidence to show that someone has used PEDs you are making a libelous allegation.
http://www.thehockeynews.com/article...od-doping.html

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02-02-2013, 05:57 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Islander102 View Post
I never got the big deal about this. These are pro athletes. I watch them to be entertained, not to be role models. I don't care if hockey players use them, just as I don't care if baseball or football players use them. Its their life, it's just my entertainment. I like watching hockey, I don't consider myself morality judge over the players.
Whilst it may be entertainment to you and I, it's a profession and a business to many. If it was just entertainment, we wouldn't have had months of CBA negotiations. The fact is that those who are cheating and breaking the rules could well be taking away the livelihood (or at least a lot of money) of those who are abiding by the rules. That isn't right. Plus, there's the fact that they could be putting themselves in danger by putting all of this stuff into their bodies. The last thing you want is a cultural change, like we have seen in cycling, where for a long time there seemed to be an assertion "I have to cheat if I want to compete." Not saying hockey would ever get to that stage, but there are a number of reasons why doping controls should be tightened

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02-02-2013, 05:59 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Guru Meditation View Post
What about Rod Brind'Amour? He looked like a competitive bodybuilder at times. Chara? I'm sure Weber is huge too. There are a lot of NHLers who are just ridiculously jacked. I'm not saying that they use, but the assertion that successful NHLers are scrawny and don't need raw physical power is misguided.
Brind'Amour looked like a bodybuilder because he was one. Some guys take the weights more seriously than others. But if you've ever spent time around some of the hockey trainers or heard them talk about their programs, they are all about functional strength (like core strength) over raw mass. There is such a thing as putting on too much weight. Peter Mueller went from skinny stoner to jacked over one summer with the Coyotes and couldn't skate for ****. Tippett has actually credited Derek Morris with losing weight this year, and thus being able to handle more ice time and generally play better. He had too much muscle/mass before. I'm sure there are all sorts of similar stories around the league.

I see no real incentive for most players, especially post lockout, to use anabolics. Sheer mass is not what they are after. Blood doping, on the other hand, is an entirely different animal. You could see some serious results on the ice from being able to increase the oxygen count in your blood.

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02-02-2013, 06:00 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Guru Meditation View Post
What about Rod Brind'Amour? He looked like a competitive bodybuilder at times. Chara? I'm sure Weber is huge too. There are a lot of NHLers who are just ridiculously jacked. I'm not saying that they use, but the assertion that successful NHLers are scrawny and don't need raw physical power is misguided.
Wayne Gretzky could only bench press 170lbs and is not a muscled guy etc.....Much of a players success has to do with many different factors like position played, speed, good hockey sense etc........And having a good enforcer to clean up any trouble coming the way of a smaller framed skilled player like Gretz, Clarke, etc.

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02-02-2013, 06:00 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by SgtJoseph View Post
I agree that Pro sports is all about entertainment, its a business........BUT my only problem is with the record book and how the old greats of the game are viewed for what records they achieved compared to records of today..
I get that, but every era of play is so different that it is really impossible to compare players anyway. From style of play, to level of competition to coaching strategies, scouting reports etc.

Mike Bossy made the hall of fame skating down the wing and burying slapshots from above the circles. Nowadays you're lucky to score on 1 out of 300 of those shots.

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02-02-2013, 06:02 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by ThirdManIn View Post
I just take issue with the argument itself. Because X player puts on 15-20lbs of muscle (which is something that was not even proven) they must be doping. Well, first of all who has put on 15-20lbs of muscle during an off season? Are we just assuming it happens with regularity? I'd say it's more likely that they are putting on 15-20lbs of weight, not simply muscle, which is certainly possible.

I'm not a big fan of the "everything is the same" line of thinking, and I'm not a fan of implying something happens all of the time without any proof.
It works a lot like this.
The theoretical maximum of muscle you can gain is X.

The player in question gained X+1. Therefore, either the player was taking something or we've discovered some kind of genetic freak.

I think what you're not really getting here though is that even 15-20 lbs of WEIGHT is shocking and a little far-fetched. There are only so many times where you can say "Yeah, this guy is a genetic freak." It's just like in the article in the original post. How many times do we give players a pass because they're "just genetically gifted"?

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02-02-2013, 06:03 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SgtJoseph View Post
Wayne Gretzky could only bench press 170lbs and is not a muscled guy etc.....Much of a players success has to do with many different factors like position played, speed, good hockey sense etc........And having a good enforcer to clean up any trouble coming the way of a smaller framed skilled player like Gretz, Clarke, etc.
...and for everybody not named Gretzky, Orr, or Lemieux, we can talk about this. Your point doesn't hold much water. There are hundreds of players in the league. Do we only care about stars?

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02-02-2013, 06:05 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Guru Meditation View Post

The player in question gained X+1. Therefore, either the player was taking something or we've discovered some kind of genetic freak.
The theoretical maximum is well documented through studies of natural bodybuilders. It wouldn't be hard to measure these guys and find out which ones are in excess of norms. But it'd be far fewer than you think, simply because mass does not correlate with success in the game nearly as much as it does in something like football.

http://www.weightrainer.net/bodypred.html

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02-02-2013, 06:07 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by XX View Post
I see no real incentive for most players, especially post lockout, to use anabolics. Sheer mass is not what they are after. Blood doping, on the other hand, is an entirely different animal. You could see some serious results on the ice from being able to increase the oxygen count in your blood.
This is the frustrating part about steroid/PED threads: most of the hockey world doesn't even know what this stuff does. There's just an assumption that everybody who takes roids hits 300 lbs and has 20 inch biceps. I wouldn't be surprised if this helped out the guys who do use quite a bit.

Do you think Tour de France guys are on test, HCG, GH, and so on because they're looking to get huge?

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02-02-2013, 06:09 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Guru Meditation View Post
This is the frustrating part about steroid/PED threads: most of the hockey world doesn't even know what this stuff does. There's just an assumption that everybody who takes roids hits 300 lbs and has 20 inch biceps. I wouldn't be surprised if this helped out the guys who do use quite a bit.
I know exactly what various compounds do. But the public isn't after the subtle cheaters. They point at the extreme examples (like before and after pictures) and want to go after those guys. All I'm saying is that it doesn't provide nearly the edge in hockey. Certain things might, but you can be assured that nearly everyone is doing the same, so the playing field is rather level.

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02-02-2013, 08:00 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Guru Meditation View Post
This is the frustrating part about steroid/PED threads: most of the hockey world doesn't even know what this stuff does. There's just an assumption that everybody who takes roids hits 300 lbs and has 20 inch biceps. I wouldn't be surprised if this helped out the guys who do use quite a bit.

Do you think Tour de France guys are on test, HCG, GH, and so on because they're looking to get huge?
Oh I don't doubt at all that steroids and other PEDs if used properly could help out a hockey player quite a bit.

Besides just added muscle, steroids/PEDs would be extremely useful in an 82 game (or 48 game for that matter) season in terms of the body's ability to recover each game.

They could also likely very noticeably improve a players strength on his skates and explosive skating acceleration for sure. They would boost stamina tremendously also, steroids are very well tailored for a sport where you go all out for 45-120 second shifts and then rest.

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02-02-2013, 08:09 PM
  #64
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Hockey players would take steroids for the same reason Lance Armstrong would


steroids work in different ways. People need to stop thinking Arnold and Hulk

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02-02-2013, 08:41 PM
  #65
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This is very wrong. Excess test gets converted into estrogen, which is why those who use gear take estrogen aromatase inhibitors such as Nolvadex.

Take gear without lifting and you'll end up nothing but bald, bloated and breasted.
No, your statement is completely false.

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056...99607043350101

Men in this study were given 600mg of testosterone and gained 7lbs of muscle over 10 weeks with doing no weight training.

It's a common myth that it isn't the steroids that make you big and strong but the actual training. This is just perpetrated to try and take away from the advantage that performance drugs give you.

NOTE: I'm not against performance enhancing drugs I just don't want to see people saying things that aren't true. These things are incredibly beneficial and I'd venture to say that most top athletes as well as a huuuge portion of college/university players and just your average gym rats experiment with them. I have tons of friends who have taken different levels of PED's. The use is widespread among the normal population.

EDIT: I also find it ridiculous how these drugs are banned and people are vilified for using them. I'm a firm believer that almost all countries use them in the olympics but rather than allow them they all try and "catch" each other using and then use it as a reason to excuse poor performance. It really makes no sense that things like this would be banned but tiger woods can go and get laser corrective surgery to give him superhuman vision. The movie/documentary "Bigger, Faster, Stronger" provides a really interesting perspective if anyone wants to learn more about this stuff.


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02-02-2013, 08:44 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by ThirdManIn View Post
How is it not possible naturally? Bulking up 15-20lbs in 90 days isn't crazy, especially for guys who are top athletes. It's much more likely that the genetics of a professional athlete will allow for quickly bulking up than it is that the genetics of an average person will allow for the same growth. Mix in the fact that it is the job of these athletes to train, to stay in shape physically. I've put on 10lbs of muscle in 90 days, and I've always had trouble bulking up. That was while only being able to hit the gym for 45 minutes per day, five days per week. I didn't have a personal trainer. I wasn't following a terribly strict diet.
15-20lbs of muscle in a year is hard enough for a top athlete (legit). 90 days is crazy. Not possible. 15-20lbs in 90 days, entirely possible. 15-20lbs of muscle in 90 days, impossible.

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02-03-2013, 12:58 PM
  #67
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The problem is universally the testing policy is stupid.

Testosterone is probably a widely used PED right now and they can hide it by using increasing their episterone levels, therefore if they come below the 4:1 ratio set, they won't do further testing and figure out the increased testosterone is coming from synthetic sources.
They can measure epitestosterone levels via carbon isotope test so that wouldn't work out. There are other ways to caught athletes from testosterone than just that old T/E test. Not that athletes wouldn't still be one step ahead, don't know.

Though those tests would cost.. a lot.


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Originally Posted by Samzilla View Post
15-20lbs of muscle in a year is hard enough for a top athlete (legit). 90 days is crazy. Not possible. 15-20lbs in 90 days, entirely possible. 15-20lbs of muscle in 90 days, impossible.
It cab be done imo.

Assuming

A) long season that has depleted players muscle mass.
B) player is genetically gifted to gain muscle.
C) lots of drugs.

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02-03-2013, 01:01 PM
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Originally Posted by MiscBrah View Post

EDIT: I also find it ridiculous how these drugs are banned and people are vilified for using them. I'm a firm believer that almost all countries use them in the olympics but rather than allow them they all try and "catch" each other using and then use it as a reason to excuse poor performance. It really makes no sense that things like this would be banned but tiger woods can go and get laser corrective surgery to give him superhuman vision. The movie/documentary "Bigger, Faster, Stronger" provides a really interesting perspective if anyone wants to learn more about this stuff.
Except Finns. We are clean .

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02-03-2013, 01:02 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by Guru Meditation View Post
Also, before people start saying there is no steroid problem in hockey, what about the 20 lb offseason? It's a familiar story; talented player X is a beanpole, but spends the offseason working with a renown trainer and gains 20 lbs.

We might explain it away, saying that so and so is a great trainer, or that kids grow rapidly. But does anybody truly pack on mass that quickly, particularly scrawny guys? I don't think they do.
Its possible. As a university student i need a lot of money to hold me over for the year so i work construction for the 4 months. Last year i was 145-150 in april, 170 in March. That was just working, no diet changes, no target work outs or anything. Its not impossible to gain 20 pounds fast.

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02-03-2013, 01:09 PM
  #70
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At least 50% of professional athletes are on PED lol .

Brb recovring 4x faster from injury than a normal person

Too much money in play.

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02-03-2013, 01:18 PM
  #71
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I just read this excellent article from Bill Simmons.

He brings up a lot of good points. Why isn't there blood testing allowed, even in the NHL? I know a lot of people will probably defend the league and claim it's less likely to feature PED usage, due to the nature of the sport, but really, shouldn't it be examined and scrutinized, especially in this day and age?
Geez, I totally missed this thread and created the identical topic in the Montreal forums... I guess I owe you royalties.

That article came up in it and it is an awesome article. I especially like where he talks about the dilemma journalists face in regards to sharing their beliefs on who is doping and who isn't. Do you name the players that you think have doped or do you keep quiet? To my surprise the guy actually goes so far as to stating his beleifs and provides the reasoning for it.

I get that HF doesn't want to get sued and I'll respect the rule not to engage in speculation over who is and isn't jucing but Simmons makes a really good point.

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02-03-2013, 01:33 PM
  #72
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People who make ridiculous claims like "50% of athletes are on PEDs" need to back a statement like that up...or be quiet.

Just because golden boy Lance Armstrong disgraced himself and lied to all of us doesn't mean a bunch of hockey players are doing it. I know some do, but some are also wife beaters and alcoholics and have illegitimate kids (like the rest of society).

But to claim 50% are, that's just someone who never made anything of themselves trying to make exuses for their lack of athletic ability and tarnishing someone else's achievements.

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02-03-2013, 01:33 PM
  #73
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This isn't baseball lol. Pure strength is not very high on the list of attributes that make an excellent hockey player, therefore why would any of the players use them? Even the goons lol, what's the point? Hockey is a game of finesse not brute force like batting in baseball or cycling.
Pure strength isn't high on the list of attributes making an excellent hockey player? What are you talking about?

And PEDs do a heck of a lot more than just make you stronger. They make you faster, less resistant to injury, help you recover from injury... how in the world does this not benefit a hockey player?
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Originally Posted by UCantHandleMyRiddum View Post
Of course PED use in the NHL is a rampant as any other professional sport. Hockey fans are generally in denial and spew out the argument that "muscle mass isn't beneficial to a hockey player"... as if PED only make you gain mass lol.

Edit: Here we go

Let me give you an example. Remember Tim Montgomery, the sprinter? Before he went to BALCO and became the fastest man in the world (At the time), he was 20 lbs lighter (of lean muscle mass)... They gave him steroids, supervised his training and he became bigger, faster, stronger and much more explosive. Muscle gain does not necessarily mean that you will be slower. It all depends on how you train.

So the point is that yes, steroids would be EXTREMELY beneficial to ANY professional athlete. With roids, an athlete can surpass his genetic limitations.
Game of Shadows is a book that documents the Balco labs. Competitors from all kinds of sport came to get juiced and their performance was off the charts. It documents Barry Bonds before and after juicing and its absolutley remarkable.

Hell, VJ Singh just confessed to using some kind of PED and he's a freaking golf pro. Of course it helps.
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Originally Posted by vector209 View Post
This is the kind of archaic reasoning that's propagated this "let's turn a blind eye" approach to PED's. A lot of people still actually believe PED's are only used to boost strength and power, when they can contribute in so many more ways: endurance, recovery time, pain tolerance, etc.

To truly believe NHL players don't use them on the basis of not benefiting as much as their other-league counterparts is naive.
Extremely naive. No way it doesn't help just as much in hockey (probably a lot more actually) than it would for golf or baseball.
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Because I don't care if they are.
You should care because there are clean atheletes competing with dirty ones and a lot of guys are getting shafted. There's also the issue in baseball where a guy juices right before a big contract and stops afterward. Then people wonder why he's no longer a star...

If its a problem in one sport it will be a problem in the others...
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Originally Posted by syz View Post
Athletes are using PEDs that people don't even know are PEDs yet.
Yup.
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Originally Posted by RainbowDash View Post
Ah, here we are with a PED topic.

I have a question here for those who have a problem with this.

Is caffeine a performance enhancing drug? Let me go ahead and pre-emptively attack this as well.
Caffeine is NOT a false analogy. Caffeine is a "drug" and it does "enhance" mental function.

If you are going to ban ANY "drug" that "enhances" someone's "performance", you NEED to ban them all. That is simply not possible.

It simply does not matter if you try to explain or put exceptions on ANY drug out there. Its arbitrary reasoning and its inconsistant. Its just plain wrong.

There needs to be better education out there for people. I am getting tired of people who spew the same propaganda their state/gov't forced down their throat in high school.
Comparing caffeine to HGH is laughable in the extrem. I don't think Barry Bonds is going to hit 70 freaking home runs if he has a Dr. Pepper before every at bat.
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Originally Posted by Islander102 View Post
I never got the big deal about this. These are pro athletes. I watch them to be entertained, not to be role models. I don't care if hockey players use them, just as I don't care if baseball or football players use them. Its their life, it's just my entertainment. I like watching hockey, I don't consider myself morality judge over the players.
Will you care if your up and coming superstar juices, gets a huge long contract and then stops juicing?
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Originally Posted by SgtJoseph View Post
Wayne Gretzky could only bench press 170lbs and is not a muscled guy etc.....Much of a players success has to do with many different factors like position played, speed, good hockey sense etc........And having a good enforcer to clean up any trouble coming the way of a smaller framed skilled player like Gretz, Clarke, etc.
And Lafleur used to smoke between periods and get drunk after every game. Totally different era.

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02-03-2013, 01:36 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by fly4apuckguy View Post
People who make ridiculous claims like "50% of athletes are on PEDs" need to back a statement like that up...or be quiet.

Just because golden boy Lance Armstrong disgraced himself and lied to all of us doesn't mean a bunch of hockey players are doing it. I know some do, but some are also wife beaters and alcoholics and have illegitimate kids (like the rest of society).

But to claim 50% are, that's just someone who never made anything of themselves trying to make exuses for their lack of athletic ability and tarnishing someone else's achievements.
There's good reason to believe it. No real testing, huge benefits from the drugs and no will from the league to police it.

Vijay Signh comes out and says he took PEDs last week, Clemens, Armstrong, Bonds... nothing surprises me anymore. Sorry but that's the way it is. And it will be that way until the league takes things seriously.

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Old
02-03-2013, 01:40 PM
  #75
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wish more people in the NHL would take them.
game would be more fun to watch.

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