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Alain Vigneault Discussion - Part 3

View Poll Results: Do you want AV fired?
Yes, get rid of him now. 70 46.36%
Yes, but only if we get knocked out of the 1st/2nd round of the playoffs. 46 30.46%
No. 35 23.18%
Voters: 151. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
02-24-2013, 07:27 PM
  #251
Bieksallent
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Originally Posted by roach9 View Post
I've always been an AV fan, but honestly...

I think his time is up.
With Ruff on the market, now's a great time to change directions.
What's so great about Ruff? He's done a terrible job putting a coherent defensive system in Buffalo. They finished in the top 10 in GA/G once since the lockout, the year Miller won the Vezina.

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02-24-2013, 07:28 PM
  #252
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Some of you guys need to get down off the ledge..

AV has coached this team to it's most successful seasons ever, he's not perfect, but he's a fine coach.

Yes he should have pulled Lou.
I'm so sick of arguments like this.

The reason the Canucks have been so successful is because we have the most talented and deepest team we've ever had.

This team would've done just as well, if not better, with a different coach.

AV was a great coach for this team when we lacked depth and offensive firepower and could play a defensive system that relied on Luongo playing in Vezina form every night.

However he cannot coach an offensive or counter-attack based game to save his life, and his ability to adapt or apply strategy in-game is atrocious.

He has one strategy. Sit back and defend the lead. That's all he knows, that's all he wants to know.

AV isn't a motivational coach, many players have said that his speeches are mostly to the tune of "Okay guys, you know what to do, now go out there and do it."

He shows no emotion whatsoever, which can be seen as "keeping your cool" but in many times it simply comes across as a lack of intensity/investment.

AV hasn't coached this team to success, rather he's ridden their talent to success. In many cases, his coaching has actually held the team back.

Between the garbage Power Play AND Penalty Kill, the defensive pairings that get mixed up more often than Raymond falls on the ice, and the constant man-crushes on useless plugs that end up taking away ice time from more useful players, I don't see how anyone can argue against the fact that AV's time in Vancouver needs to come to an end.


Last edited by SillyRabbit: 02-24-2013 at 07:34 PM.
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Old
02-24-2013, 07:30 PM
  #253
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Originally Posted by SillyRabbit View Post
I'm so sick of arguments like this.

The reason the Canucks have been so successful is because we have the most talented and deepest team we've ever had.

This team would've done just as well, if not better, with a different coach.

AV was a great coach for this team when we lacked depth and offensive firepower and could play a defensive system that relied on Luongo playing in Vezina form every night.

However he cannot coach an offensive or counter-attack based game to save his life, and his ability to adapt or apply strategy in-game is atrocious.

AV isn't a motivational coach, many players have said that his speeches are mostly to the tune of "Okay guys, you know what to do, now go out there and do it".

He shows no emotion whatsoever, which can be seen as "keeping your cool" but in many times it simply comes across as a lack of intensity/investment.

AV hasn't coached this team to success, rather he's ridden their talent to success. In many cases, his coaching has actually held the team back.

Between the garbage Power Play AND Penalty Kill, the defensive pairings that get mixed up more often than Raymond falls on the ice, and the constant man-crushes on useless plugs that end up taking away ice time from more useful players, I don't see how anyone can argue that AV's time in Vancouver needs to come to an end.
Odd conclusion to that rant, but OK...

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02-24-2013, 07:31 PM
  #254
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What are his weaknesses? How do we attribute certain things to a coach? Not trolling, it's just something I struggle to come to terms with. Is there a particular part of the Canucks' system that bothers you?
I'm honestly done with the long breakout pass. Teams know it, they expect it. Take the wingers and we are tipping it into the zone and trying to retrieve it. Nothing more than a dump and chase team at that point. Detroit used to do it all the time but how often did you see them try it today? Not that often.

This whole mantra of 'the puck is faster than the skater' has grown tired and ineffective. We've got some great skating centres on this team like Kesler, Schroeder, and Lapierre. Henrik and Schroeder can distribute the puck better than any of our D. Ballard can also skate the puck out of trouble but the coaching staff used to bench him for it. There's a reason guys like Karlsson are winning Norris Trophies now.

Part of the reason it's so hard on our D is because they're like the QB that gets sacked constantly and unlike the QB they can't just throw the ball away or anything similar. They have to take the punishment and wait for the pass or keep playing catch with their partner.

---

I'm tired of the offensive zone play too. Everyone is molded to play the same cycle game as the Sedins. Different players have different strengths. I'm sorry but the 3rd line is never going to be strong at cycling the puck. They do OK with it because they can cause turnovers once they lose it along the boards but they're not made for that game. They're good off the rush and they're good at exploiting gaps in coverage. If they are going to cycle it then AV needs to let them use the whole zone like the Hawks do (Kane in particular) instead of only face-off circle and below.

Note how much trouble it gives us to keep our coverage when guys like Zetterberg, Hossa, and Kane cycle the whole zone with the puck while the D jump deep into the play. There needs to be more creativity instead of the rigid zone play we have. The team also takes literally no risk in the offensive zone. It's not a crime to once in a while try a pass to the guy in the slot for a one-timer. If it gets intercepted, big ****ing deal.

They also need to have a much more aggressive forecheck when those three are out on the ice. Schroeder can force turnovers better than almost anyone on this team.


Last edited by Tiranis: 02-24-2013 at 07:38 PM.
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Old
02-24-2013, 07:32 PM
  #255
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Originally Posted by roach9 View Post
I've always been an AV fan, but honestly...

I think his time is up.
With Ruff on the market, now's a great time to change directions.
Ugh, no thanks. Rather go big or go home with a guy like Cooper.

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02-24-2013, 07:34 PM
  #256
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Cooper or Eakins

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02-24-2013, 07:34 PM
  #257
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What are his weaknesses? How do we attribute certain things to a coach? Not trolling, it's just something I struggle to come to terms with. Is there a particular part of the Canucks' system that bothers you?
Poor decision making: keeping Luongo in net way too long in games on many occasions, using players in situations where they don't belong (Weise in the top 6, Ebbett on the PK, etc)

Style of play: This season and last season there have been way too many odd man rushes because of bad pinches in the offensive zone. Our forwards don't cover the d-men anymore, and our d-men pinch regardless if a forward can cover him or not.
We also stop trying to score with a 1 goal lead when there are still 10 minutes left in the game. We need to keep forechecking, but AV insists on dumping the puck in and keeping shifts very short.

Inability to motivate the team: this team gives up on way too many occasions, and even in very important playoff games.

And our PP has been horrible since last season (Newell Brown's responsibility).

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02-24-2013, 07:34 PM
  #258
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Originally Posted by CpatainCanuck View Post
Odd conclusion to that rant, but OK...
Oops haha, fixed it.

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02-24-2013, 07:39 PM
  #259
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The games we played best against Chicago were the tight low scoring ones. We lost when we played more open against them.
You can certainly make a case that the Nucks aren't built to run and gun with them, but the way we've had success against them - playing a tight game - does not preclude us from forechecking and going on the attack, which we stopped doing in Game 4 after Hordi gave us the 1-0 lead.

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02-24-2013, 07:40 PM
  #260
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Could a moderator add a poll to this thread?

Do you want AV fired?

1. Yes, get rid of him now.
2. Yes, but only if we get knocked out of the 1st/2nd round of the playoffs.
3. No

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02-24-2013, 07:43 PM
  #261
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Could a moderator add a poll to this thread?

Do you want AV fired?

1. Yes, get rid of him now.
2. Yes, but only if we get knocked out of the 1st/2nd round of the playoffs.
3. No
4. Yes, I wanted him fired last season after the Boston win which led to our team completely collapsing for the rest of the season and playoffs.

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Old
02-24-2013, 07:44 PM
  #262
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kind of funny 10-4-4 and talking about sacking the coach #canuckproblems

not that I'm not thinking about it too

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02-24-2013, 07:44 PM
  #263
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Originally Posted by Tiranis View Post
I'm honestly done with the long breakout pass. Teams know it, they expect it. Take the wingers and we are tipping it into the zone and trying to retrieve it. Nothing more than a dump and chase team at that point. Detroit used to do it all the time but how often did you see them try it today? Not that often.

This whole mantra of 'the puck is faster than the skater' has grown tired and ineffective. We've got some great skating centres on this team like Kesler, Schroeder, and Lapierre. Henrik and Schroeder can distribute the puck better than any of our D. Ballard can also skate the puck out of trouble but the coaching staff used to bench him for it. There's a reason guys like Karlsson are winning Norris Trophies now.

Part of the reason it's so hard on our D is because they're like the QB that gets sacked constantly and unlike the QB they can't just throw the ball away or anything similar. They have to take the punishment and wait for the pass or keep playing catch with their partner.

---

I'm tired of the offensive zone play too. Everyone is molded to play the same cycle game as the Sedins. Different players have different strengths. I'm sorry but the 3rd line is never going to be strong at cycling the puck. They do OK with it because they can cause turnovers once they lose it along the boards but they're not made for that game. They're good off the rush and they're good at exploiting gaps in coverage. If they are going to cycle it then AV needs to let them use the whole zone like the Hawks do (Kane in particular) instead of only face-off circle and below.

Note how much trouble it gives us to keep our coverage when guys like Zetterberg, Hossa, and Kane cycle the whole zone with the puck while the D jump deep into the play. There needs to be more creativity instead of the rigid zone play we have. The team also takes literally no risk in the offensive zone. It's not a crime to once in a while try a pass to the guy in the slot for a one-timer. If it gets intercepted, big ****ing deal.

They also need to have a much more aggressive forecheck when those three are out on the ice. Schroeder can force turnovers better than almost anyone on this team.
I agree fully and thank you for the post. The D are way overtaxed in his system, I don't know how Salo survived as much as he did really. This is particularly true in the playoffs where every player tries to finish every check. It's not surprising that our defence is decimated every spring. Definitely saw Ballard do less and less puck carrying through the neutral zone, now he's just some dude that plays percentages (not exactly his strength). Three years it's taken AV to drill Ballard into what we see today.

The breakouts do drive me nuts too.

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02-24-2013, 07:45 PM
  #264
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kind of funny 10-4-4 and talking about sacking the coach #canuckproblems

not that I'm not thinking about it too
Outstanding goaltending for the majority of games and a solid 3rd line with schroeder, hansen and raymond. Can you imagine how bad this team would be if we had last season's raymond and a poorly playing kassian to start the season?

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02-24-2013, 07:49 PM
  #265
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Also, the reason we're so easy to shutdown in the playoffs, especially the Sedins, is because we use half the available space on what's already a small rink. Why? Because AV in his heart is a defensively minded coach and doesn't want to take the extra risks. Take advantage of the space by the blue line in other ways than just by passing the puck to the D. They seem to do fine with it on the PP but then at ES it's like it's suddenly a crime to even think of going there. Hawks have killed us by utilizing the full offensive zone in their cycle.

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02-24-2013, 07:49 PM
  #266
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Tick tock, Vigneault.

Tick tock.

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02-24-2013, 07:49 PM
  #267
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I'm not sure about this anymore. Gillis preaches offense first but I see the majority of the forward and D corps built with 2way play in mind. They don't get the purely skilled guys like other teams do. There's clearly an emphasis on defense throughout.
This team has the personnel to forecheck well and put the pressure on opposing defenses. Since that miraculous turnaround about halfway through the 2008-09 season we've always been better when we play that aggressive, up-tempo style. Of course, that doesn't mean you throw defence out the window. You just need that third man to be smart and cover for the pinching D. Sure we have a lot of two-way guys in the lineup but if you're able to spend more time in the attacking end than not, why not? You know what they say about the best defence...

I think it's hard to say whether MG would go after the pure skill UFA's - after all, lots of them either go after the money or are interested in signing elsewhere. Unless, of course, we know that MG chose not to go after them at all. It has to make sense for us too cost-wise.


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02-24-2013, 07:52 PM
  #268
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kind of funny 10-4-4 and talking about sacking the coach #canuckproblems

not that I'm not thinking about it too
6 of those 10 wins came against the Northwest Division:



I don't think the Canucks are an imposter, but it has to be factored into any legitimate analysis.

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02-24-2013, 07:54 PM
  #269
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As much as i dislike AV, he is not going anywhere soon

GMMG wouldn't argue with the owner to keep him just to fire him after a loss to Detroit.

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02-24-2013, 07:56 PM
  #270
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kind of funny 10-4-4 and talking about sacking the coach #canuckproblems

not that I'm not thinking about it too
aren't we 2-4-X against teams with winning records?

Easy beating the NW teams all the time.

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02-24-2013, 07:57 PM
  #271
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As much as i dislike AV, he is not going anywhere soon

GMMG wouldn't argue with the owner to keep him just to fire him after a loss to Detroit.
AV is MG's last scapegoat. He won't fire him after this loss, but he is on an extremely short leash. He might survive this season because it is shortened, but I honestly think it might be a decent idea to still fire him this season with the team we have because we have the players to get the job done. We just need something to wake this team up. It worked for the penguins.

Also, I remember a year or two ago a statistic was posted on the length of time that a coach has coached one team and the amount of Stanley Cups the team has won. After a certain amount of years coaching without winning a cup, no coach has won the stanley cup with that team. I can't remember how many years it was (maybe 7?), but AV definitely met the qualifications. Sooner or later players are going to start tuning out a message. Maybe they've learned all that they can from AV and just need a tiny bit of new perspective on ways to be a better player/team.


Last edited by luongo321: 02-24-2013 at 08:06 PM.
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02-24-2013, 07:58 PM
  #272
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I'm honestly done with the long breakout pass. Teams know it, they expect it. Take the wingers and we are tipping it into the zone and trying to retrieve it. Nothing more than a dump and chase team at that point. Detroit used to do it all the time but how often did you see them try it today? Not that often.

This whole mantra of 'the puck is faster than the skater' has grown tired and ineffective. We've got some great skating centres on this team like Kesler, Schroeder, and Lapierre. Henrik and Schroeder can distribute the puck better than any of our D. Ballard can also skate the puck out of trouble but the coaching staff used to bench him for it. There's a reason guys like Karlsson are winning Norris Trophies now.

Part of the reason it's so hard on our D is because they're like the QB that gets sacked constantly and unlike the QB they can't just throw the ball away or anything similar. They have to take the punishment and wait for the pass or keep playing catch with their partner.

---

I'm tired of the offensive zone play too. Everyone is molded to play the same cycle game as the Sedins. Different players have different strengths. I'm sorry but the 3rd line is never going to be strong at cycling the puck. They do OK with it because they can cause turnovers once they lose it along the boards but they're not made for that game. They're good off the rush and they're good at exploiting gaps in coverage. If they are going to cycle it then AV needs to let them use the whole zone like the Hawks do (Kane in particular) instead of only face-off circle and below.

Note how much trouble it gives us to keep our coverage when guys like Zetterberg, Hossa, and Kane cycle the whole zone with the puck while the D jump deep into the play. There needs to be more creativity instead of the rigid zone play we have. The team also takes literally no risk in the offensive zone. It's not a crime to once in a while try a pass to the guy in the slot for a one-timer. If it gets intercepted, big ****ing deal.

They also need to have a much more aggressive forecheck when those three are out on the ice. Schroeder can force turnovers better than almost anyone on this team.
Very well said. I can't remember the last time one of our players received a pass in the high slot.

I would be honestly slightly apprehensive though, were AV to be fired (along with Bowness and Brown). Would our players be able to adapt - 'unlearn' one of the more planned approaches in the NHL with 30 games remaining. Have their roles been so specifically and repeatedly defined that any change would essentially render this season void? The Sedins being the most obvious and extreme example.

The flip to this is obviously that it would be practically impossible for us to miss the playoffs with our division, and that 30 games might give us the time to adjust.


Last edited by Yossarian54: 02-24-2013 at 08:06 PM.
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02-24-2013, 08:00 PM
  #273
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Originally Posted by Tiranis View Post
I'm honestly done with the long breakout pass. Teams know it, they expect it. Take the wingers and we are tipping it into the zone and trying to retrieve it. Nothing more than a dump and chase team at that point. Detroit used to do it all the time but how often did you see them try it today? Not that often.

This whole mantra of 'the puck is faster than the skater' has grown tired and ineffective. We've got some great skating centres on this team like Kesler, Schroeder, and Lapierre. Henrik and Schroeder can distribute the puck better than any of our D. Ballard can also skate the puck out of trouble but the coaching staff used to bench him for it. There's a reason guys like Karlsson are winning Norris Trophies now.

Part of the reason it's so hard on our D is because they're like the QB that gets sacked constantly and unlike the QB they can't just throw the ball away or anything similar. They have to take the punishment and wait for the pass or keep playing catch with their partner.

---

I'm tired of the offensive zone play too. Everyone is molded to play the same cycle game as the Sedins. Different players have different strengths. I'm sorry but the 3rd line is never going to be strong at cycling the puck. They do OK with it because they can cause turnovers once they lose it along the boards but they're not made for that game. They're good off the rush and they're good at exploiting gaps in coverage. If they are going to cycle it then AV needs to let them use the whole zone like the Hawks do (Kane in particular) instead of only face-off circle and below.

Note how much trouble it gives us to keep our coverage when guys like Zetterberg, Hossa, and Kane cycle the whole zone with the puck while the D jump deep into the play. There needs to be more creativity instead of the rigid zone play we have. The team also takes literally no risk in the offensive zone. It's not a crime to once in a while try a pass to the guy in the slot for a one-timer. If it gets intercepted, big ****ing deal.

They also need to have a much more aggressive forecheck when those three are out on the ice. Schroeder can force turnovers better than almost anyone on this team.
Well said, Tiranis. :Handclap:

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02-24-2013, 08:01 PM
  #274
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And who knows, maybe bringing in a new (possibly stricter) coach will get our team to stop diving so often, maybe wake up some of our players.

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02-24-2013, 08:01 PM
  #275
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Very well said. I can't remember the last time one of our players received a pass in the high slot.
Burrows, game 7 vs. Chicago in OT. O__O

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