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Alain Vigneault Discussion - Part 3

View Poll Results: Do you want AV fired?
Yes, get rid of him now. 70 46.36%
Yes, but only if we get knocked out of the 1st/2nd round of the playoffs. 46 30.46%
No. 35 23.18%
Voters: 151. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
02-25-2013, 12:23 AM
  #301
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Fire av and hire lindy ruff

av can eat ****

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02-25-2013, 12:27 AM
  #302
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AV best coach in the league, you're all knee jerkers.

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02-25-2013, 12:30 AM
  #303
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He should have been gone last season. First round playoff exit. Yes, Kings went on a miracle run, but we played like garbage after the boston game and nothing got this team going. Something tells me this team was too busy conserving energy in the first round for their deep playoff run. Don't even get me started on those anti-riot adverts. Poor preparation all around. AV and co is past expiry.
I disagree. Despite a lackluster second half and horrid playoffs, we were only a year removed from the cup finals, Kesler was playing injured and then Daniel went out. Those are enough variables outside AV's control to earn him a reprieve. This year there is no excuses. We have Kesler at full health, we added a top four defenseman and inserted some youth. AV has to deliver because there really is nothing for Gillis to add. And as much as we all criticise Edler on the right side, a coach should be able to help make the adjustment.

I will say those the anti-riot adverts were ridiculous but those had more to do with the city attempting to cling to an idealist image.

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02-25-2013, 12:32 AM
  #304
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AV best coach in the league, you're all knee jerkers.

Mike is puzzled.

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02-25-2013, 01:14 AM
  #305
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Originally Posted by keslerbomb View Post
AV best coach in the league, you're all knee jerkers.
Ottawa Senators: 24pts; AHL roster
Vancouver Canucks: 24psts: Elite NHL roster

Yeah...

I said it on the main board. Unless Ottawa sinks, Maclean not winning the Jack Adams would be criminal. I wish AV was that good.

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02-25-2013, 01:15 AM
  #306
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Mike is puzzled.
When babs dies, he's gonna have a great looking skull. Very ape like

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02-25-2013, 01:52 AM
  #307
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When babs dies, he's gonna have a great looking skull. Very ape like
It will be another missing link. Line his skull up beside cro-magnon.

I like AV but I wonder if there's something to be said for the fact that every year this team gets decimated on the back end. Is that bad luck or is it the way he has this team play? Aside from that I'd only switch up AV if another top notch coach became available, like Babcock or Bylsma. Curious about Cooper but I'd only make that move if they bowed out in the first round again this year. He would be a gamble but his results and player decelopment are unprecedented and at that point they'd need a shakeup heading into next year anyways.

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02-25-2013, 02:25 AM
  #308
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AV best coach in the league
....
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Originally Posted by Joel Quennville View Post
Say what?

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02-25-2013, 02:39 AM
  #309
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Joel Quennville
Lol Hawks fans spent the last two years petitioning for his sacking. Hang around long enough and everything flips.


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02-25-2013, 02:51 AM
  #310
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AV for Quennville straight up.

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02-25-2013, 03:22 AM
  #311
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AV is a much better coach than most people here think. 117 points a finals appearance while the Sedin's were winning art ross trophies and Kesler scored 40 and got the selke. Also had the #1 offense and defense.

But he can't coast off that forever, the team is badly underachieving and have been for too long. Time to let him go.

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02-25-2013, 03:43 AM
  #312
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Originally Posted by serge2k View Post
AV is a much better coach than most people here think. 117 points a finals appearance while the Sedin's were winning art ross trophies and Kesler scored 40 and got the selke. Also had the #1 offense and defense.

But he can't coast off that forever, the team is badly underachieving and have been for too long. Time to let him go.
Pretty much how I feel. There is no underselling AV's accomplishments during his time here. He's a good coach that will be in the league for a while. But NHL coaches have a shelf life for a reason and he's reached his in my opinion. At this point it is simply a question of the availability of a strong replacement.

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02-25-2013, 04:08 AM
  #313
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AV is a much better coach than most people here think. 117 points a finals appearance while the Sedin's were winning art ross trophies and Kesler scored 40 and got the selke. Also had the #1 offense and defense.

But he can't coast off that forever, the team is badly underachieving and have been for too long. Time to let him go.
We aren't underachieving imo. The only elite thing remaining on this team is our goaltending. Our defense has been just awful, our offense consists of one very good line, a 70 point guy in Kesler (debatable?) a few 15-20 goal scorers on a good season, and two lines of grinders.

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02-25-2013, 05:09 AM
  #314
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I heard a rumour that Schneider is sick with the flu, if he is, then it makes my next point moot.

On Saturday, I thought that Schneider should have played against Detroit. Sure Luongo kept the Canucks in against Nashville in the first period, but that was a relatively easy shutout for him. Wasn't really tested. I think AV needs to think that getting a shutout doesn't mean his goalie was that good on the night. If Schneider was healthy, he should have played against Detroit.

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02-25-2013, 06:01 AM
  #315
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Originally Posted by keslerbomb View Post
AV best coach in the league, you're all knee jerkers.
I posted a few nice, long criticisms of AV's coaching this season. I wish when people defend AV they would debate that instead of the vague "he's a great coach" or "he's the best coach out there because his record proves it". On the other side of the debate, too much attention is given to whether he can 'rah-rah' the guys or bench the goalie at the right time. Those are such minor things I don't think they're worth any of the attention they're getting. Paul MacLean is successful with that AHL roster because he has drawn up a heck of a gameplan for his team, not because he can motivate his guys or bench his goalies at the right time.

The team is losing because they're playing the most picked apart system in the NHL and have not made the adjustments to stay successful, not because AV didn't bench Luongo at the right time. If you want more info, see the last two pages.

I don't know how anyone can be happy with what they're watching as it's not even close to up-tempo, aggressive hockey. We're playing dump and chase (even if that's not the intention). And our offensive game outside the Sedins is the most primitive version of the cycle you could possibly draw up.


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02-25-2013, 07:12 AM
  #316
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Originally Posted by Tiranis View Post
I posted a few nice, long criticisms of AV's coaching this season. I wish when people defend AV they would debate that instead of the vague "he's a great coach" or "he's the best coach out there because his record proves it". On the other side of the debate, too much attention is given to whether he can 'rah-rah' the guys or bench the goalie at the right time. Those are such minor things I don't think they're worth any of the attention they're getting. Paul MacLean is successful with that AHL roster because he has drawn up a heck of a gameplan for his team, not because he can motivate his guys or bench his goalies at the right time.

The team is losing because they're playing the most picked apart system in the NHL and have not made the adjustments to stay successful, not because AV didn't bench Luongo at the right time. If you want more info, see the last two pages.

I don't know how anyone can be happy with what they're watching as it's not even close to up-tempo, aggressive hockey. We're playing dump and chase, plain and simple. And our offensive game outside the Sedins is the most primitive version of the cycle you could possibly draw up.
Worse, we're playing dump and chase without the personnel, cycle or forecheck to support it. I think you've presented many of the issues with the team. We've been trying to play the same system for years but somehow we think nobody in the rest of the NHL watches tape or something.

I do disagree with your assessment of our cycle game. We don't have one. I think you're being generous when you say we dont use much of the ice - IMO with the exception of the sedins we have almost no cycle game. I actually count the number of cycles when I watch and we might average one before we pass it back to the defence for a non-screened point shot. You are right though that a more speed/space oriented cycle would fit our players a lot better.

I was watching the Ottawa game and I figured out how MacLean has gotten so much out of the lineup. Their breakout is ridiculously simple - you can see all five guys on your screen and they just read the play accordingly and make short passes. Tons of puck support, and lots of forecheck. You add in the explosive quality of karlsson or the passing of a spezza in there and it's simple but gives tons of options. That's why it still works even without those two guys in the lineup.

Really this is a schizophrenic team under AV. They should be an up-tempo attacking team with defensive conscience. We have fast, two-way players in a non-forechecking system with a long pass mentality that negates that speed. We're supposed to be a defensively minded team but our defence doesn't rush the puck especially well, and for the amount that we pinch we've been having fits with forwards rotating down to cover it.

We are basically unable to play simple offensive hockey in any way shape or form. Most rushes with speed die in the corner or are nullified by long wrist shots that miss the net and go all the way around and out. Almost nobody on our team seems tohave the awareness to find soft spots in the coverage - you'll see that we almoat never get shots from the slot. Nor do we screen goalies when we're not on the PP, and we almost never shoot for rebounds...but other teams do it to our goalies all the time.

That's it for now off the top of my head. Honestly I still believe we have the talent to win, but our players are being shoehorned into a defensive system that doesn't fit them and have little to no guidance when it comes to ES set plays.

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02-25-2013, 07:13 AM
  #317
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Originally Posted by Tiranis View Post
I posted a few nice, long criticisms of AV's coaching this season. I wish when people defend AV they would debate that instead of the vague "he's a great coach" or "he's the best coach out there because his record proves it". On the other side of the debate, too much attention is given to whether he can 'rah-rah' the guys or bench the goalie at the right time. Those are such minor things I don't think they're worth any of the attention they're getting. Paul MacLean is successful with that AHL roster because he has drawn up a heck of a gameplan for his team, not because he can motivate his guys or bench his goalies at the right time.

The team is losing because they're playing the most picked apart system in the NHL and have not made the adjustments to stay successful, not because AV didn't bench Luongo at the right time. If you want more info, see the last two pages.

I don't know how anyone can be happy with what they're watching as it's not even close to up-tempo, aggressive hockey. We're playing dump and chase (even if that's not the intention). And our offensive game outside the Sedins is the most primitive version of the cycle you could possibly draw up.
So much this.

Tiranis has actually made valid arguments and points using specific examples of how AV's system is garbage.

I'd like to see people arguing in AV's favor to do the same, and use proper examples and coaching analysis rather than blanket statements such as "the team has done well since he's been the coach, so it must be because he's a good coach."

Quote:
Originally Posted by mossey3535 View Post
Really this is a schizophrenic team under AV. They should be an up-tempo attacking team with defensive conscience. We have fast, two-way players in a non-forechecking system with a long pass mentality that negates that speed. We're supposed to be a defensively minded team but our defence doesn't rush the puck especially well, and for the amount that we pinch we've been having fits with forwards rotating down to cover it.

We are basically unable to play simple offensive hockey in any way shape or form. Most rushes with speed die in the corner or are nullified by long wrist shots that miss the net and go all the way around and out. Almost nobody on our team seems tohave the awareness to find soft spots in the coverage - you'll see that we almoat never get shots from the slot. Nor do we screen goalies when we're not on the PP, and we almost never shoot for rebounds...but other teams do it to our goalies all the time.

That's it for now off the top of my head. Honestly I still believe we have the talent to win, but our players are being shoehorned into a defensive system that doesn't fit them and have little to no guidance when it comes to ES set plays.
Agree with this as well.

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02-25-2013, 07:20 AM
  #318
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So much this.

Tiranis has actually made valid arguments and points using specific examples of how AV's system is garbage.

I'd like to see people arguing in AV's favor to do the same, and use proper examples and coaching analysis rather than blanket statements such as "the team has done well since he's been the coach, so it must be because he's a good coach."



Agree with this as well.
His system isn't garbage. It's just too static. and IMO he makes poor personnel choices that don't help his system either. If we could add in some wrinkles based on simple hockey it would help his system work. It's just going to get worse in the playoffs if we continue without adjusting because teams were adjusting as the series went along even in our cup run.

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02-25-2013, 08:44 AM
  #319
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His system isn't garbage. It's just too static. and IMO he makes poor personnel choices that don't help his system either. If we could add in some wrinkles based on simple hockey it would help his system work. It's just going to get worse in the playoffs if we continue without adjusting because teams were adjusting as the series went along even in our cup run.
I wouldn't say it's garbage either. It has issues and they're growing by the day as the rest of the teams in this league adjust/get better. I do think AV is a good big plan coach, but don't think he's more than average when it comes to the details of the team's offensive or defensive play. I think there's a lot of merit to his emphasis on the process and I think there are a lot of 'rah-rah' coaches that could learn from him in that regard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mossey3535 View Post
Really this is a schizophrenic team under AV. They should be an up-tempo attacking team with defensive conscience. We have fast, two-way players in a non-forechecking system with a long pass mentality that negates that speed. We're supposed to be a defensively minded team but our defence doesn't rush the puck especially well, and for the amount that we pinch we've been having fits with forwards rotating down to cover it.
I think we have good puck rushers we just don't use them. Whenever a guy rushes the puck nobody else knows what to do. It's what used to create so much trouble for Ballard as he would rush it and everybody would just stand around trying to figure out how to support him. The team has no coaching on how to play with a rover.

For a team with offensive defensemen we use our D surprisingly little in our attack. The extent of their use is basically to pinch in often and to shoot from the point often. It makes their play predictable. On the rush, defensemen usually only jump up into the play as the trailer when they can exploit team's in transition but there's little attempt to involve them more regularly on the rush. There needs to be a little more flexibility, especially since most of our wingers are exceptionally fast and can easily cover for the D.

You look around the league and most good teams have adjusted their use of D. There's so much more fluidity to their play when you watch teams like Ottawa, TBL, Pens or Chicago. I feel like the Canucks innovated 3 years ago and since then they've sat on their hands and hoped for the best. There's adjustments, of course, but too minor to make much difference.


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02-25-2013, 10:03 AM
  #320
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So...any unexpected MG press conferences announced yet?

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02-25-2013, 10:23 AM
  #321
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^ I wish.

That was a big loss last night. More importantly, it highlights just how far this team is from being elite. Consider that their losses have come mostly out of division, against tougher competition. It's not a good statistic to have.

The point is, if this team is good, but not good enough, will this be cause enough to fire AV? Gillis is on record saying this team is as good as the 2011 team. Yet, the scheme is just as fragile. Little forwards are expected to cycle like the Sedins. It's not a system that accommodates all the personnel. Further, the puck support is just maddeningly poor. Passes get picked off constantly. So is it right to expect the team's fortunes to change in the playoffs when the same limited system is employed?

CHI gives this team fits in part because coaching allows for it. You just know Bowman and Quenville sit together and pick apart the Canucks system before every game, and as the series progresses, they are able to exploit the limitations more and more. It's only when the Canucks again play a near perfect game that they eek out the victory.

2nd round and out. That's what seems the likely outcome. A good season overall, but not so good for a cup contender. Is that enough for AV to lose his job? Gotta say, I'm hoping it is. He's a good coach, but I've had enough and I hope Gillis makes the hard choice at that time.

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02-25-2013, 10:24 AM
  #322
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I like AV but I wonder if there's something to be said for the fact that every year this team gets decimated on the back end. Is that bad luck or is it the way he has this team play?
Last year the Canucks used as few defenders (9) as they had in any year over the previous decade. Every year it is 9-12 or 13 guys.

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02-25-2013, 10:26 AM
  #323
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^ I wish.

That was a big loss last night. More importantly, it highlights just how far this team is from being elite. Consider that their losses have come mostly out of division, against tougher competition. It's not a good statistic to have.

The point is, if this team is good, but not good enough, will this be cause enough to fire AV? Gillis is on record saying this team is as good as the 2011 team. Yet, the scheme is just as fragile. Little forwards are expected to cycle like the Sedins. It's not a system that accommodates all the personnel. Further, the puck support is just maddeningly poor. Passes get picked off constantly. So is it right to expect the team's fortunes to change in the playoffs when the same limited system is employed?

CHI gives this team fits in part because coaching allows for it. You just know Bowman and Quenville sit together and pick apart the Canucks system before every game, and as the series progresses, they are able to exploit the limitations more and more. It's only when the Canucks again play a near perfect game that they eek out the victory.

2nd round and out. That's what seems the likely outcome. A good season overall, but not so good for a cup contender. Is that enough for AV to lose his job? Gotta say, I'm hoping it is. He's a good coach, but I've had enough and I hope Gillis makes the hard choice at that time.
Last year should have been enough for AV to lose his job. I lost a lot of faith in Gillis after that.

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02-25-2013, 10:45 AM
  #324
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Last year should have been enough for AV to lose his job. I lost a lot of faith in Gillis after that.
I didn't because the alternatives were no apparent. This year, there are choices. It seldom happens, so I hope Gillis doesn't let this opportunity pass him by. He may not get a chance as good as this.

On another note: In 2011, I came out and lambasted the team after their two blowouts vs CHI. I said this team wasn't good enough to win the cup. Not with the way they were generating chances. Didn't mention the defense I think, but I could have. Point being, I made a call, and they went to game 7 is th SCF. So I was rightly corrected... Or was I?

The lowest scoring team to make it to the SCF. Lowest goal totals in the SCF with 8. Was I wrong or was the run just that improbable? They shouldn't have made it there and it has coloured everyone's perception since. We be the contender lab thrown at em, but are they? Or are people continually misjudging this team? The offense has dropped by nearly a full goal per game the last two years and no one is calling for big changes because of that run and because of Daniel being injured, but we should be. This team is good, but clearly limited. Not unlike SJ. There will be issues that always hold them back... And one of those limitations is a very stale and predictable coach.

It was magic that this team made it to he SCF. They shouldn't have, and it bought a limited coach and suspect offense more undeserved time. The run could be as bad as it was good simply by clouding the real needs of he team because of it.

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02-25-2013, 10:50 AM
  #325
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I didn't because the alternatives were no apparent. This year, there are choices. It seldom happens, so I hope Gillis doesn't let this opportunity pass him by. He may not get a chance as good as this.

On another note: In 2011, I came out and lambasted the team after their two blowouts vs CHI. I said this team wasn't good enough to win the cup. Not with the way they were generating chances. Didn't mention the defense I think, but I could have. Point being, I made a call, and they went to game 7 is th SCF. So I was rightly corrected... Or was I?

The lowest scoring team to make it to the SCF. Lowest goal totals in the SCF with 8. Was I wrong or was the run just that improbable? They shouldn't have made it there and it has coloured everyone's perception since. We be the contender lab thrown at em, but are they? Or are people continually misjudging this team? The offense has dropped by nearly a full goal per game the last two years and no one is calling for big changes because of that run and because of Daniel being injured, but we should be. This team is good, but clearly limited. Not unlike SJ. There will be issues that always hold them back... And one of those limitations is a very stale and predictable coach.

It was magic that this team made it to he SCF. They shouldn't have, and it bought a limited coach and suspect offense more undeserved time. The run could be as bad as it was good simply by clouding the real needs of he team because of it.
I know what you mean, that season I was harping that anyone could have got that team to the SCF, they were supremely talented and so many players had career years.

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